Location, location, location

[WRTC928]

Since it sort of came up in another thread, here's something I posted in a Ham forum. It stimulated some interesting discussion.

This morning, I checked in to a net on a 2 meter repeater 20 miles north of my house with 4 watts on an HT. I didn't know it when I bought the place, but my house is in a very advantageous location for radio dorks...err...enthusiasts in central Oklahoma. I'm on a 40' bluff above a river which is the second-highest location for miles around. I have excellent terrain for radio waves, apparently. I have checked in to the same net with a 2.5" stubby antenna on a 6 watt radio and was heard clearly.  I used to regularly use a GMRS repeater 25 miles to the northeast with an HT until it went offline. On a good day, I can be heard clearly on a repeater 50 miles northeast with a handheld and I can always work it with 12 watts on a mobile/base in my living room with a mag mount antenna on a steel pizza plate. I've talked HT-HT with a guy almost 20 miles to my south, albeit not very clearly. The only direction I don't have good results is to my west because the highest point for miles around is about 1/2 mile west of me. Ironically, I can reach the repeater to the northeast with a HT from my house but can't reach it with a 20 watt mobile from the WalMart parking lot.

The answer to the ubiquitous question, "How far can you talk on that?" is...it depends. I'll bet I could reach Kansas with a 35 watt mobile from the hill to my west. I may actually try it some time. My goal at present is to see how low I can go and still work that repeater 20 miles to the north. This morning, I used an HYS 771 antenna. Tomorrow, I'm going to change to the Comet 2m/1.25m/70cm tri-band antenna. It probably doesn't perform quite as well as the dual-bander just because that's kinda how antennas work; you don't get something for nothing. If I have no trouble with the tri-band antenna, I'm going to drop to 2 watts and try different antennas. I wonder if I can be heard clearly on that repeater with 1 watt and a stubby antenna?  This is fun!

ADDENDUM: I was right. The tri-band antenna didn't perform as well as a dual-band 701. I didn't have any trouble getting in, but it was reportedly less clear than with the 771. You can have an antenna that does one thing well or one that does multiple things less well. I did get down to 2 watts on a 701 antenna, which isn't bad. Power is no higher than third most important factor in distance and clarity. The first is line-of-sight (usually better the higher you get) and the second is the antenna. I was reliably hitting the aforementioned GMRS repeater 25 miles away with a "cheap Chinese junk" Baofeng BF-F8HP that generates about 6 watts on GMRS frequencies.

[Socalgmrs]

Yup.  No amount of watts, money, “quality” can make up for location.  Antennas help greatly aswell.   I can put a good antenna up on a 20w radio and reach much further then a junky antenna on a 50w radio.  

[AdmiralCochrane]

Not all dual or tri banders are less than their single band sisters, it is just more likely that it is so.  I have been lucky enough to get triband antennas that were dead on for the band I used that one the most for.

With antennas, there is no substitute for testing in actual use.

 

[WSGI548]

Today they had gun show at our local Chamber. I had taken a BF UV5RM Plus with me. Since all I use it for is GMRS, I bought and installed HYS bnc antenna for GMRS. I have hit our big repeater(40 miles away) with the dual band 771 antenna on 10w, but I figured this antenna might improve it.
 

While waiting for my buddy, I keyed the repeater on medium power, which should be about 5 watts +/- and got a good acknowledgement. I was advised I was not full quieting, but was plenty clear and staying strong while we talked.

This was the distance and elevation plot I mapped when I got home.

 

[73blazer]

A good location is everything of course!

I'm in the middle of a heavy forest on flat ground for 10's of miles around and people just don't seem to believe me when I say most HT's won't do more than a mile HT to HT here. I get "your doing something wrong...your radio's garbage" or similar stmts...ok I Invite you here with whatever HT you got I guarantee you won't do better. When people say there's no difference in a 3w HT vs 5w HT...i beg to differ as it makes a huge difference here in the woods. I've tested many brands on various services HAM VHF/UHF,MURS,GMRS,Business some expensive motoroalas to cheap baofangs. My HAM HT has a diamond SRJ77CA and the GMRS HT's have a 771G Naygoya those antennas also help quite a bit in range in the heavy forest with a 5.5w HT and one of those antenna's I can usually get 1.5-1.75mi HT to HT here before the sound quality drops off significantly.

I can hit a GMRS repeater 18mi and another HAM VHF 26mi away from my HTs if I'm in very particular spots but move 5' or turn around while talking and it's all over. If I could get an antenna above the canopy I could go for miles. To get good full quieting and reliable signal on the repeaters though I have to use a 50w base station, the GMRS uses a 6 element yagi and the HAM one has a diamond base U/V ant mounted mid-canopy height to clear the ground scrub but not be in the canopy itself. To get out of the canopy I'd need 110' tower and I'm not doing that.

So a "bad" location proves your point. But the reality is most people can't (or won't) do much about their location unless your really an uber radio dork and willing to move just to be in a better radio location. 

[WRTC928]

12 hours ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

With antennas, there is no substitute for testing in actual use.

 

My experience has been that two supposedly identical radios may prefer different antennas. That's why it's hard to answer the question, "What antenna should I buy?" or "What's the best antenna?" I usually say that most name-brand aftermarket antennas are better than the stock antenna and throw out some brands I've had good results with. Nagoya, HYS, Signal Stick, to name a few. Unfortunately, you can spend quite a bit of money before you find one you're really happy with, depending upon what you want to do with it. However, for what you're trying to do, the stock antenna may be fine, so I always recommend people try it before they replace it.

[WRTC928]

1 hour ago, 73blazer said:

When people say there's no difference in a 3w HT vs 5w HT...i beg to differ as it makes a huge difference here in the woods.

I've said that myself, but I yield to your real-world experience. I may try it sometime to get a feel for how much difference it makes. Of course, no two heavily wooded areas are identical, but there's no substitute for experiencing it yourself.

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, 73blazer said:

A good location is everything of course!

I'm in the middle of a heavy forest on flat ground for 10's of miles around and people just don't seem to believe me when I say most HT's won't do more than a mile HT to HT here. I get "your doing something wrong...your radio's garbage" or similar stmts...ok I Invite you here with whatever HT you got I guarantee you won't do better. When people say there's no difference in a 3w HT vs 5w HT...i beg to differ as it makes a huge difference here in the woods. I've tested many brands on various services HAM VHF/UHF,MURS,GMRS,Business some expensive motoroalas to cheap baofangs. My HAM HT has a diamond SRJ77CA and the GMRS HT's have a 771G Naygoya those antennas also help quite a bit in range in the heavy forest with a 5.5w HT and one of those antenna's I can usually get 1.5-1.75mi HT to HT here before the sound quality drops off significantly.

I can hit a GMRS repeater 18mi and another HAM VHF 26mi away from my HTs if I'm in very particular spots but move 5' or turn around while talking and it's all over. If I could get an antenna above the canopy I could go for miles. To get good full quieting and reliable signal on the repeaters though I have to use a 50w base station, the GMRS uses a 6 element yagi and the HAM one has a diamond base U/V ant mounted mid-canopy height to clear the ground scrub but not be in the canopy itself. To get out of the canopy I'd need 110' tower and I'm not doing that.

So a "bad" location proves your point. But the reality is most people can't (or won't) do much about their location unless your really an uber radio dork and willing to move just to be in a better radio location. 

A heavy forest and flat ground is almost the worst case for uhf.  And although I’m one who over generalizes that a person will typically not notice the difference between 3 watts and 5 watts, that’s not in all instances.  I could definitely see it making a difference getting through woods or other material that attenuates the signal rather than outright blocking them.  If power were completely meaningless we could all get by with 100 milliwatts. 
 

I made a contact hundreds of miles away last night on ham radio. I was using 800 milliwatts on 10 meters when I did it.  It was an accident and I was busy trying to figure out why my RF output was at 0.8 watts at the time.  Of course conditions must have been just right and once I figured out my mistake and started operating at nearly 50 watts I was getting contacts faster than I could handle.

 

[WRTC928]

This morning, I checked into the daily net on a 2 meter repeater 20 miles away using 1 watt and an HYS NA-701 antenna on a Retevis RT85 HT.  I was told that I was "a little noisy but not hard to understand". Tomorrow I'm going to try 1 watt and a stubby antenna. If that works, I'm going to just shout. This demonstrates pretty well, IMO, that height is might, elevation is propagation, and power is not as important as a lot of people think. I knew the "book answer" but it really reinforces it when you do the experiment yourself. There's a 70cm repeater in the same location and I was able to hear myself on another radio using that repeater. There's hardly ever anyone on that one, so I had to settle for saying "testing" and listening to myself. 

I know this is a GMRS forum, not ham, but the principles are exactly the same. Unfortunately, I don't have a GMRS repeater I can reach from my home. I used to have one about 25 miles away which I could easily use with a 5 watt HT, but it went offline a few months ago. There's one in Oklahoma City about 35 miles away, but I can't reach it with 50 watts -- I've tried. There are a couple of ham repeaters I can use in Oklahoma City, so I assume the GMRS repeater is in a less advantageous location. There are (I think) 11 amateur radio repeaters in Oklahoma City, of which I can hear 4 and actually use 2. Again, the difference is probably location.

[WSEZ864]

2 hours ago, 73blazer said:

A good location is everything of course!

I'm in the middle of a heavy forest on flat ground for 10's of miles around and people just don't seem to believe me when I say most HT's won't do more than a mile HT to HT here. I get "your doing something wrong...your radio's garbage" or similar stmts...ok I Invite you here with whatever HT you got I guarantee you won't do better. When people say there's no difference in a 3w HT vs 5w HT...i beg to differ as it makes a huge difference here in the woods. I've tested many brands on various services HAM VHF/UHF,MURS,GMRS,Business some expensive motoroalas to cheap baofangs. My HAM HT has a diamond SRJ77CA and the GMRS HT's have a 771G Naygoya those antennas also help quite a bit in range in the heavy forest with a 5.5w HT and one of those antenna's I can usually get 1.5-1.75mi HT to HT here before the sound quality drops off significantly.

I can hit a GMRS repeater 18mi and another HAM VHF 26mi away from my HTs if I'm in very particular spots but move 5' or turn around while talking and it's all over. If I could get an antenna above the canopy I could go for miles. To get good full quieting and reliable signal on the repeaters though I have to use a 50w base station, the GMRS uses a 6 element yagi and the HAM one has a diamond base U/V ant mounted mid-canopy height to clear the ground scrub but not be in the canopy itself. To get out of the canopy I'd need 110' tower and I'm not doing that.

So a "bad" location proves your point. But the reality is most people can't (or won't) do much about their location unless your really an uber radio dork and willing to move just to be in a better radio location. 

While power usually isn't the deciding factor and line of sight typically prevails, in your situation I think you're overcoming the attenuation of the foliage, which is why the power IS the key parameter.

[WRTC928]

Well, I may have found the lower limit.  This afternoon, I tried to work that repeater 20 miles away with 1 watt and a 2.5" antenna. I could key the repeater, but nobody responded to my call, which usually means nobody can hear/understand you because there's always someone listening to that repeater. I have done it with 5 watts and a 2.5" antenna, but for 1 watt, a 701 seems to be as low as I can go. It's been a fun experiment, though.

 Just now, I got into the 70cm repeater 20 miles away and the signal report was "almost full quieting" using a 2 watt Arcshell AR-5 with its stock rubber duck antenna. The Arcshell is practically disposable, so if you spend $300,000 in the right location, you too can work a 20 mile repeater with a $10 radio. 

[GreggInFL]

On 2/17/2025 at 11:00 AM, SteveShannon said:

A heavy forest and flat ground is almost the worst case for uhf.

A.K.A Florida.  Sigh.

[GreggInFL]

On 2/17/2025 at 8:47 AM, 73blazer said:

A good location is everything of course!

I'm in the middle of a heavy forest on flat ground for 10's of miles around and people just don't seem to believe me when I say most HT's won't do more than a mile HT to HT here. I get "your doing something wrong...your radio's garbage" or similar stmts...ok I Invite you here with whatever HT you got I guarantee you won't do better. When people say there's no difference in a 3w HT vs 5w HT...i beg to differ as it makes a huge difference here in the woods. I've tested many brands on various services HAM VHF/UHF,MURS,GMRS,Business some expensive motoroalas to cheap baofangs. My HAM HT has a diamond SRJ77CA and the GMRS HT's have a 771G Naygoya those antennas also help quite a bit in range in the heavy forest with a 5.5w HT and one of those antenna's I can usually get 1.5-1.75mi HT to HT here before the sound quality drops off significantly.

I can hit a GMRS repeater 18mi and another HAM VHF 26mi away from my HTs if I'm in very particular spots but move 5' or turn around while talking and it's all over. If I could get an antenna above the canopy I could go for miles. To get good full quieting and reliable signal on the repeaters though I have to use a 50w base station, the GMRS uses a 6 element yagi and the HAM one has a diamond base U/V ant mounted mid-canopy height to clear the ground scrub but not be in the canopy itself. To get out of the canopy I'd need 110' tower and I'm not doing that.

So a "bad" location proves your point. But the reality is most people can't (or won't) do much about their location unless your really an uber radio dork and willing to move just to be in a better radio location. 

I feel your pain.  When asked how far my HT will go I usually reply, "Half a mile, two if you're lucky."  My 25W mobile with a mag mount is another story.

[GrouserPad]

On 2/18/2025 at 1:50 PM, GreggInFL said:

I feel your pain.  When asked how far my HT will go I usually reply, "Half a mile, two if you're lucky."  My 25W mobile with a mag mount is another story.

Same here.  27mhz makes simplex   gmrs look like a joke in these woods.

[Sonicgott]

This is just my interpretation, but you can think of watts on a radio as brightness on a flashlight at night.

Line-of-sight, a bright flashlight will be clearly different than a dim flashlight, but you will see both.

However, if there's a hill, a brighter flashlight is more likely to have a "halo" that you may see from the reflections, but a dim flashlight you may not. Think of someone coming from a road behind the hill that you can clearly tell has their high beams on, even though they're not directly in your face.

So, more power may get you around difficult terrain, but if you're on flat terrain, or high on a hill, you may be able to achieve communication with less power.