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Cliff notes: unless youre thinking communicating with another member of your group, I would put gmrs lower on the list of what I'd depend on. PLB with 2 way messaging may be a better option (here is a list of some I found on Google, no endorsement of the site or a specific product https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/camping-and-hiking/best-personal-locator-beacon) While having options is good, I would rank gmrs down the list for a few reasons. First, and foremost, getting help is dependent on there being someone else around to hear the need for help. If you're with a group and that's who you plan to communicate with, them it's not a bad choice. However, many users on gmrs are primarily there to communicate only with their group, and run "privacy tones" to not hear users outside their group. The "someone out there to hear" also applies to repeaters; many don't see much activity, and there are many out there not listed because they're intended for family use only. While there is definitely some good areas of enthusiasts out there (arizona/NM and the great lakes areas and their networks come to mind), it isn't like that everywhere. On the functional side, UHF is pretty line of sight, and attenuated by brush and foliage, limiting your range; this is compounded with a handheld, because even in the clear you run into horizon issues due to the curve of the earth, also limiting range, though being on a high spot helps. Finding a repeater would be the highest odds of getting any good range to be heard. On some specific areas, I do know of some good coverage in Arizona and into New Mexico, I don't know of any coverage in sequoia/kings canyon, nor any with good coverage of Yosemite, though there might be some spots that can reach one. I don't know of any IN the parks. As I understand it, even the ham side is spotty into Yosemite, though kings canyon is said to have some coverage. Hope this helps. Not trying to be negative about it, just realistic.

(FYI: I am adding this prefacing text to my original post to tip manufacturers and readers off that I am creating a new reply today, 9/2, which will serve as a running, bullet list summary of the various points. You can go there for a quicker summary and look throughout this entire post for more specifics. Back to the original post...) A post to GMRS radio manufacturers... (For other folks, admittedly this post is a bit lengthy. This is because my main target audience are radio manufacturers who might read this forum, so I wanted to include details for their benefit. Of course, if not a manufacturer, feel free to continue reading if you'd like.) I'm fairly recent to GMRS. Even so, in that short time I've found myself in astonished [not in a good way] amazement regarding radio design decisions, quality control issues, and documentation issues. Taking these one at a time (and throwing in the bonus topic of price creep) ... Radio Design Decisions Hopefully manufacturers realize that many people buying what-should-be-more-capable GMRS radios want to use them with GMRS repeaters and not just to talk with their children on simplex. However, the design decisions I've witnessed leave me in stunned it-can't-be disbelief: + Some radios allow for the storage of the eight GMRS repeater pair channels in only eight memories. This entirely misses the mark that repeater users may need to access repeaters which use the same freq pair but with different access tones. What are GMRS repeater users expected to do in this case? Keep programming / reprogramming the tones as the users switch between those repeaters? This is inconvenient and annoying. It is even more inconvenient if the radio has to be programmed with a PC and programming cable instead of being programmable in the field using a radio's keypad. + Though I'm not sure, I seem to recall reading that at least one radio was designed with access tones in an all or nothing mode. That is, specifying an access tone applied it to all of the stored frequencies. Not good. And even if this was not the case, some radios do not (or did not) support split tones. Split tones are important for GMRS repeater use. These days some repeaters utilize a DCS transmit tone and a CTCSS receive tone, or vice versa, or two different CTCSS tones, or two different DCS tones. Split tone capability please. + Some radios were released with narrow band only. For people with wide band radios, the apparent volume of a narrow band transmission is lower, which can be annoying to listen to. Capable GMRS radios (i.e., "non-bubble-pack" variety) especially should be designed with selectable wide band and narrow band capability. Quality Control Issues It's amazing what quality control issues were released to consumers: + Without specifying which manufacturers, even recently released radios capable of both wide and narrow band were factory pre-programmed with memories set to narrow band. So right away, especially non-bubble-pack radio users will likely want to change those to wide band. This is not convenient if such radios must be programmed via a PC and programming cable, and even worse if the cable is not provided with the radio. A before-it's-released-to-the-consumer quality check should have detected and prevented this. + Similar to the above, without specifying which manufacturers, some recently released radios were factory pre-programmed with access tones stored in the memories. Not good. For example, if a particular memory had CTCSS receive tone 156.7 stored and the radio is set to use that memory, that means a transmission would be heard only if the corresponding 156.7 transmit tone is transmitted by a sender. This would be bad especially for new users - they might not even realize that they are not receiving transmissions which don't send the appropriate tone. And as above, this is a irritant if such radios require a PC and programming cable to correct this, and even worse if the cable is not included with the radio. A before-it's-released-to-the-consumer quality check should have detected and prevented this. + OEM programming software is often buggy. Or the ability to copy/paste whole row(s) or selected cells of programming data is not supported. This makes programming painful. Documentation Issues To put it kindly, often the documentation, especially for Chinese radios, is lacking. Important details are omitted. The English is poor. Please hire people with a better command of English. But that is not enough. Also make sure that the document writers understand radios well enough to know what to write. Both of these skills are needed to create worthwhile documentation. Price Creep I've been noticing price creep recently. For example, one manufacturer released a radio not long ago, then fairly recently released an updated model for $20 more, and then released an even more recent model shortly later for $50 more than the first model. I'm not saying necessarily that the two latter radios do not warrant their increased prices, but the higher prices in rapid succession have been noticed by others as well. This manufacturer also sells a mobile GMRS radio that is a bit shy of $400, which is in the mucho dinero level of the established, big name manufacturers. Again, I'm not saying necessarily that this manufacturer doesn't deserve such prices, but as the saying goes, "people are beginning to talk." This manufacturer can afford to charge these prices at least currently due to the design features incorporated in their radios versus the past, lacking offerings from their competitors. But if their competitors incorporate such features at more modest prices, they might woo customers away. Such is the waltz that is capitalism. Consumers are noticing the rapidity with which the increasingly priced radios with incremental improvements (perhaps an intentional business model) are released. As such, the consumers and their wallets might hold off on future purchases for a few beats to see what's coming 'round the bend. Examples of Good Execution I didn't want to provide only examples of bad execution. Here are some examples of good execution: + I don't know what Wouxun did or didn't do in say the last five years, but they seem to have their act together in the more recent past I'm aware of. For example, I purchased a KG-905G radio recently. Rightfully so, it did not arrive from the factory programmed in narrow band for channels in which wide band is permissible. Rightfully so, it did not arrive with access tones factory pre-programmed in memories instead of the more desirable case of no factory pre-programmed tones. Also, this radio allows a user to store multiple versions of the same repeater freqs with different tones. + Randy, from youtube channel "NotaRubicon Productions," reviewed the newly released Wouxun KG-935G handheld GMRS radio recently. It is apparent that the designers understand features to include which facilitate the use of this radio. Or possibly they included such features due to listening to influencers such as Randy and/or buytwowayradios.com. For example, the radio can be operated in a dual receive mode. To make it readily apparent which of the two selectable channels is the one that will be transmitted on when pressing the PTT button, an attention-getting red bar is present in the portion of the display corresponding to that frequency. Nice. Now let's take the case in which dual receive is active and one steps away from the radio but can hear that a transmission was received. Was it frequency A or B? There is an indicator which shows which frequency last received a transmission. Nice. But let's say you're a person who likes to keep things simple. You might find dual receive confusing or annoying. Dual receive is selectable; one is not forced to use it. Nice. * Recently, buytwowayradios.com has made the Wouxun KG-XS20G mobile radio available for purchase. While I'm waiting for reviews of this radio (believe one will be coming soon from Randy), a feature I like is one that was abandoned by many manufacturers, including the big name $$$ ones. I'm referring to the use of the sturdy, old-style mic connector. This is the connector which utilizes the strain-relieved mic cord secured by a rotating, threaded locking collar instead of the RJ-45 type of connector. I, and plenty of others, dislike the RJ-45 type of connector, especially for mobile radios. Disclosures + I have no connection with Wouxun, other than I purchased their KG-905G radio. I mention them simply because I like many of their design decisions. In case anyone thinks that I'm an automatic Wouxun fan-boy, that is not the case. For example, I wish the KG-905G radio was fully field programmable via it's key pad and knobs. As far as I know, to add or change frequencies in its memories, a PC and programming cable is required. Once that's been done, one can use the radio's limited keypad and knobs to specify or change things such as access tones, power level, and wide or narrow band. While this is better than radios that don't allow for any or next-to-nothing programmability from their keypad/knobs, I wish that the KG-905G was more field programmable in addition to the PC and programming cable method. Since the keypad of this radio is basic (i.e., numeric keys are not included), even if a convoluted way of inputting or updating frequencies could be done via the radio's keypad and knobs, I would like that. This would make the radio more flexible when traveling or otherwise away from home. + I have no connection with Randy nor his NotaRubicon youtube channel. I mention them only because he and his channel provide spot-on information about GMRS and GMRS radios. + I have no connection with buytwowayradios.com other than that's the web site from which I bought the KG-905G radio and some accessories. It is my understanding that BTWR may have interfaced with manufacturers such as Wouxun to drive design decisions for certain, uniquely-offered radios. If so, BTWR is a good asset for the GMRS world. And if that helps the manufacturer create desirable products which differentiate them from competitors and therefore drives sales, it's a win-win. Summary For the radio manufacturer's, I've provided examples of problematic radio designs, quality control issues, documentation issues, and a potential warning about increasing price creep. I've also provided examples of good execution. Finally, while providing radios with good features is nice, it is important that manufacturers also ensure reliability. The allure of whiz-bang features is long forgotten if a radio/its battery/etc fail a short time after the warranty period ends. But the bad reputation for such a manufacturer will exist long after in this case. Bad or non-existent after-purchase support also falls in this category. Note: The opinions expressed are my own. The opinions of others may vary.

Ya know, a radio could be created which is simple for casual users who never want to touch a computer, and may only really be interested in simplexing with other GMRS users who may or may not be using the same equipment, but at the same time give it the capability to do more advanced things via programming software like: Repeaters of same frequencies but different tones Repeaters with split tones Scan out of band (e..g. 2m/70cm HAMs, Police, Fire, etc) DTMFs per channel Power level per channel etc etc Such things could be hidden behind an "expert" menu from the keyboard, or even ONLY programmed via computer software (Mac, Linux, Windows, etc). That being said, @pcradio mentioned "CHIRP is not much better" ... Well, I've got to say it is worlds better than the Wouxun software for KG-935G! While CHIRP has its frustrations, the Wouxun software is absolutely horrendous as far as the channel memory editor is concerned. I have some 10 year old LED Sign software which looks like WindowsXP with menus completely in Chinese, but it is much easier to use than the Wouxun KG-935G software. But there's a wait-list for Wouxuns, so nobody there sees any benefit in fixing/making-usable their programming software. I've not checked into RT Systems software, but with a proprietary cable, and no trial system that I can see, I'm not sure it is any better than CHIRP. Plus, it does not support some of the weird radios I have (which are supported by CHIRP). Until a radio manufacturer produces quality software to program their under-$200 radios, CHIRP is the way to go. So, not counting RT systems, here's how I see it: horrible factory software frustrating (but consistent) CHIRP wonderful factory software #1 is the norm, #3 I've never seen. So focusing my effort on #2 (CHIRP) is the forced compromise. It provides a fairly consistent interface across radios, so I don't have to learn the unique design quirks from the various software "engineers" at Baofeng, Retevis, Wouxun, etc. (Why, for example, did Wouxun choose to put the channel label in the 11th column, way over on the far right of the screen, vs CHIRP which puts it in column 2, on the left side of the screen, right next to the frequency, and one hop from the channel number? Why?? WHY??? And "Hello: Copy/Paste" from another program like, I dunno, Excel? Nope, sorry.) ETA: (I forgot to mention before I hit SEND) It wouldn't seem unreasonable to me at least that a manufacturer couldnt release a "basic" radio for under $100, but sell an add-on "subscription" (if you will) for another $50 to provide great programming software to unlock advanced features and/or long-term support. Missed revenue opportunity on their part I guess.

Software will continue to work. You just wont be able to download any new updates or versions.

I appreciate the answers. What I've ended up doing is just renaming the channels with the software. Even though they aren't close together, it's better than nothing. FYI: I also bought 2 Wouxun KG-805g's. They allow me to do what I want to do, i.e. program them the way I noted above with the Wouxun PC software. Thanks again!

I just wanted to post a follow-up. I decided to go with a straight GMRS base station antenna instead of the UHF/VHF. I purchased a Comet CA-712EFC. IMO it's a pretty nice antenna as far as construction and the hardware included. Until I can perform a permanent installation with some additional height I have it attached to a 16 foot piece of 1-1/4" schedule 40 steel pipe. Height to antenna tip is about 25'. I used 75' of LMR-400 Ultra Flex and routed it into the RV and into a SWR meter. On the other side of the meter is my handheld KG-935G with a SMA female to PL-259. I had a jaw dropping 1.06 SWR on Channel 20 at 4 watts plus some change. I easily hit a repeater 29 miles away and had a nice conversation with a gentleman who gladly gave me a radio check. He said I was coming in strong. I'm waiting for my lightening arrester to arrive and I'll do another SWR check after that is installed. Sometime later in the day I'll be plugging up the KG-XS20G and see what 20 watts does for me. Overall I'm pleased with the antenna and its performance.

Now that is worth it to do. This is another reason I will get the software for Wouxun KG-UV8H. Thanks, Michael, MacJack

Comet 712EFC is a great choice for a base antenna. I have mine mounted on a tripod on the roof of my house. Approx 30' or so off the ground. Works great, light weight, no tuning, priced right.. what's not to like?

The "Travel Tone" is CTCSS 141.3 Hz. Has become a standard tone for travelers and others to talk to each other. I hear traffic on this tone on many different channels of GMRS. Weatherford OK is right on I-40. WRCW870

Midland has not yet announced an official release date for the 500 or 575 ... I have both.. but I'm not yet allowed to talk about them... ?

I respectfully beg to differ, but it doesn't take a $500 radio to incorporate the points I've presented. Good documentation...$20 radio should have it, $500 radio should have it. And most of the other points do not involve expensive changes nor hardware changes. Most of these are cases of making simple, good decisions when programming the radio anyway. So why not do things such as not imposing an arbitrary limit regarding how many of the abundantly provided memories one can program with multiple occurrences of repeater freqs/tones? The manufacturers of the cheap line of GMRS radios have already demonstrated a willingness to adopt such changes. -- mrgmrs

As I mentioned in the paragraph I inserted at the top of my original post, I created this current reply you're reading as a summary section. If/as additional points are made which could aid manufacturers and buyers, I will edit and update this same section. Here is the running list, in no particular order: • Ability to store multiple versions of a GMRS repeater frequency with different tones is good • No arbitrary limit of how many of the above can be stored • To expand on the second point immediately above, careful about designing arbitrary limits in general • Tones should be specific for each memory and not across-the-board • When designing more capable "non-bubble-pack" radios, provide wide band and narrow band capability, not narrow band only • Double check firmware before new radios are released or when updating firmware. (E.g., don't release radios with access tones or narrow band set in memories.) • Careful about proprietary designs. (E.g., naming tones with proprietary names may be ok for bubble pack radios, but for more capable radios I'd stick with naming conventions such as 107.2, D025N, etc.) • Memory banks/groups are nice • Test OEM radio programming software adequately before releasing it. These are often released with obvious, main-function bugs. It's one thing to not catch more obscure error legs, but main-function bugs should be detected and fixed during testing. • OEM programming software should support a good, 21st century UI experience, such as copy/pasting • Good documentation please. Missing, pertinent information is frustrating. So is poor English. • The ability to field program a radio (including frequencies) using its keypad and/or knobs is desirable • For mobile radios, please use a DIN style mic connector. This is the type which has a strain-relieved cable and a rotating, threaded, locking collar. This is more robust than the RJ-45 style of connector. • Attention-to-detail niceties enhance a user's experience. Examples can be found in the "Examples of Good Execution" portion of the original post. • Admittedly my personal opinion: non-bubble-pack radios should look professional/commercial rather than gimmicky • HTs should be stable (i.e., not prone to tipping over) when placed vertically on a flat surface. E.g., the end should be squared off, not rounded.

mbrun, I agree with you regarding BuyTwoWayRadio's positive role in advancing and improving GMRS. Another person who has done so is Randy from youtube channel NotaRubicon. It's obvious that GMRS manufacturers are aware of him and that he is an influencer. For example, when he mentioned nine or so issues with a recently introduced GMRS radio, the manufacturer responded and fixed the bulk of the issues with a firmware update immediately. Another good contribution is mygmrs.com. Its forum appears to be the main GMRS watering hole. The repeater database is also appreciated. Thanks for mentioning you were glad to see this thread started. I appreciate your and everyone's comments.

Memory Banks/Groups Another feature I like and use is memory banks/groups. It is nice to be able to associate certain memories in one group (e.g., home channels), another set of memories in another group (e.g., brother's home channels), etc. That way, while visiting various locations, one can switch to the group which contains the desired channels only. Among other benefits, this speeds up scanning.

I have a software programming background. The PC software for these units is bizarre. I don't mean to insult the people who are working there to make it. Its just not acceptable. Like, simple features providing copy/paste, sane defaults, drop down combo-box behavior, multi selection, and so on. CHIRP is not much better.

BuyTwoWayRadios needs to be given credit for the improvements that the have made to happen with the recent crop of Wouxun Radios. I can’t honestly say that I can attribute any of the recent improvements to the manufacturer directly. Some background for you. I received one of the first shipment of KG905G radios. I had preordered it the first I learned it was in the works. Within the first couple of hours I discovered major flaws. Wouxun thought this was perfectly acceptable apparently, because no respectable quality control department ever would have passed it. They must think we Americans are to stupid to notice. Within a short time after reporting the issue to BTWR independently verifying the issues, production on the radio was halted. I believe early action on their part saved the 905G from being a disaster and I suspect it was likely a major contributor to the long delay before Wouxun got the issues resolved and product begin shipping again. They earned a lot of respect from me for this. Since that time I have had many interactions with BTWR regarding product performance and have assisted with pre-release testing of product, including the two most recent releases. I am pleased to report that many issues were caught by both parties and corrected before units went into full production. It is sad however that it is taking a distributor to do the manufacturer’s job for them, but for those of us that own Wouxun GMRS radios we should be very thankful they are involved. And as far as the UI improvements in the latest crop of radios, we have BTWR to thank, both for opening the door to external collaboration but also pushing the manufacturer to do a better job. I am actively lobbying for still a much improved user experience and a way of doing field programming of channelized radios. Comments in this thread may prove helpful in making the case further that change is necessary. mrGMRS, I agree with you. The 905G (or its successor) can and should be able to be fully and conveniently field programmed, and it should be able to be done faster and more conveniently that any of the current crop of GMRS radios, even those with keypads. The story is written. The question is whether the manufacturer cares. However, all of this is mute if everyone wants radios at bottom of the barrel prices. If there is no money to be made… Just my two cents. I must admit I was thrilled to see this thread start. Michael WRHS965 KE8PLM