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Hey folks... I have discussed receive and transmit quality with many of you in the past. Especially focused around the quality of the transmit signal with regard to spurious emissions, commonly known as Spurs. I wanted to share this info because with the introduction of the TinySA, some YouTubers are using these in their tech reviews, but really don't understand what they are looking at and end up giving out bad information. Our friend NotARubicon recently reviewed the BTech GMRS 50V2 and did a great job of showing/explaining what is known as a harmonic spur. Harmonics are a subset of Spurious signals found at integer multiples of the fundamental frequency of the signal. If you haven't seen the review, I highly recommend it. BTech GMRS 50V2 - Review & Power Test - Is BTech's New GMRS 50V2 Better Than The GMRS 50X1? I got a couple of pictures I wanted to share, that relate directly to this. These images may help understand the references when you see/hear reviewers discuss this topic. I have a friend of mine who's repeater was not behaving well and upon testing with a tool called a Spectrum Analyzer, he found Spurs every 100 KHz above and below the carrier at 462.675 MHz. In the GMRS world, that translates to the signal being transmitted over and over again, every 4th channel. Below are the images he sent from both prior to the repair, and after it was fixed. Broken... Fixed.... There are many, many types of spurs that can occur. You are looking at the effects of noise generated by the exciter circuits (VCO for those familiar), known both as sideband spurs and Baseband Harmonic Images. If this doesn't make sense, its okay. Just know that if someone is doing a tech review and shows pictures or video like this, the radio is broken... not that it was designed poorly. The next two pictures are of two of my radio's signals on a TinySA. These images are great example of Phase Noise spurs. The first picture, the issues seem pretty obvious to me. The second picture shows one small spur. It's not terrible, but it really shouldn't be there. Warning... Geek Alert! Phase Noise spurs are unwanted signals that occur due to the random fluctuations in the phase of the carrier signal. Phase noise spurs can degrade the quality of the transmitted signal. Think audio and signal quality. This is a symptom of poorly/cheaply designed radios and use of low-quality parts; not something that is malfunctioning. This was by no means meant to be technical. It is just samples to help know whats broken vs. poorly designed, and a conversation starter. Let me know if there are any questions. Either myself or one of the smart people in the room will answer them the best we can.

Plus Signal Sticks are made in the USA by the guy who also runs HamStudy.

Man, I have to be honest, I feel like the internet and my cellphone/smartphone has made me dumber. Like so much so, that I'm not sure I even spelled 'dumber' correctly, but I don't want to look it up because that perpetuates the problem. LoL

Uh...MY father had a GMRS license when I was a kid. Thats 40+ years ago. GMRS is way not a new service. I think you need to do some reading.

This chart shows most things: https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/2003-allochrt.pdf Here’s an enlargement of one portion:

Yep, went back and reviewed his other posts. 6 to 8 lines max and then all of a sudden this stuff. Personally I think we need to put a stop to this nonsense right now. If you want to get on here and write a novel about a topic, then YOU need to be writing it, not ChatGPT. Because screen scraping someone or someTHING else's work and calling it your own is still plagiarism and BS. Is this what the world is coming to that people refuse to have an actual thought or opinion and instead ask some AI thing on the Internet to form an opinion for them? We just gonna forgo free thinking and jump on the InterWeb bandwagon of BS and allow others thoughts to be combined by some computer system and just go with that? Ok, how about we just forgo voice communications of any kind, run some voice recognition program on our computers and and then connect that to our radios and let the computers talk on the radio and not bother to actually communicate with each other any more. Personally I think this stuff is getting out of hand. And we are only beginning to scratch the surface of the coming dumb. The WORST is yet to come.

I like my RA-25 (DB-20 AT-779 are the same). Nice simple GMRS mobile. Plus In an emergency It can be unlocked to other frequencies.

I have been considering this as I always feel like I’m not giving recognition where it’s deserved. back to signal stalk tuning

It's working again!

It’ll reset during the day. It is an odd limitation. Paying for premium membership was almost worth it just for that!

@kirk5056 I enjoyed reading your post. It was well written and you did a nice job of summarizing the issues. Unfortunately, I agree with @WRUU653 that it probably won’t make any difference.

because all the really good looking girls are going to go out with the satellite phone guys because they got all the money

What are your opinions on Baofeng radios? I find them to be weak, under modulated and muffled on transmit. The recieve is prone to interference from nearby signals much more so than higher quality more expensive radios. I have found this on both Ham and GMRS. Now, I know that because of their low cost, they are something that could get someone on the air who is on a tight budget and could be considered a starter radio, just to be fair about it.

When we choose a GMRS Travel Channel what are some of the criteria we should consider? I have thought of a few, I am sure there are more. When I refer to GMRS I also mean FRS unless noted. This is my second rant of three on the GMRS Travel Channel. In my first rant (yesterday) I gave my thoughts on what a Travel Channel is and how some other radio services have handled the concept. To review, I suggested that a Travel Channel is made up of three components, a Call/Hail component, a Chat/Rag chew component and a Distress component. And we saw that some radio services have all three components on one channel, some have each with a channel alone and some combined them on two channels. These are my thoughts on the criteria, you may disagree. CRITERION: HIGHEST TX POWER It seems to me that we should choose from the highest allowed power channels (GMRS 15-22). This gives the prospective caller the most choices for TX power. CRITERION: BE LIKE CB Since many come to GMRS from CB those people may be expecting GMRS 19 to be like CB 19. Those coming from public safety, military, ham, aviation or marine may not have those same pre-conceived notions. I am not sure that nostalgia should be an important criterion. CRITERION: FCC LINE A There is an international agreement (signed in 1965, so it is nothing new) between the US and Canada that restricts the use of certain frequencies within a certain distance of the Canadian border. The FCC calls this Line A. For GMRS that means we cannot use GMRS 19 and GMRS 21 in those areas. I cannot find any documentation to show why those only GMRS frequencies and not other GMRS channels. Now, only effecting areas near Canada may not seem like much of the US but a look at the FCC website map shows something else. Looking at the FCC map it appears that GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in some major metropolitan areas like Seattle and Everett Washington. Nor can they be used in the major metro areas of Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Flint and Saginaw Michigan. They cannot be used in the metro areas around Cleveland and Toledo Ohio. Also, cannot be used around Buffalo, Syracuse and Rochester New York. Nor can they be used in about 20-30% of Vermont and New Hampshire. And others Also, looking at FCC’s map it appears that GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in about 80% of the State of Maine and about 60% of the State of Michigan-with their major adventuring areas. Speaking of adventuring areas, GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in New York’s Adirondack Mts or 4 of Michigan’s 5 National Forests. They also cannot be used on 4 of the 5 Great Lakes. They cannot be used in the Boundary Waters canoe area and the rest of the Superior National Forest. They cannot be used in several Indian Reservations nor in Glacier National Park. GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in several of Washington State’s National forests, most of Puget Sound and all of Olympic National Park. Nor can GMRS 19 & 21 be used at about 10% of the NFL stadium tailgate parties or about the same percentage of MLB stadiums. I almost forgot, there is also an FCC Line C. It seems to prohibit the use on GMRS 19 & 21 in and around the Alaska capitol of Juneau. They cannot be used in any of the Alaska panhandle and the associated waters, so popular in the adventuring and cruise industries. They are also prohibited from use in several National preserves, the Wrangell-St Elias National Park and most (if not all) of the US part of the Alaska Highway. CRITERION: COMMONLY KNOWN There is a channel that seems to be, by some GMRS operators, to already be the GMRS Travel Channel. The GMRS Travel Channel debate/discussion comes up frequently on the GMRS forums that I read. When it does some people always point out that GMRS 20 is, or at least was, the unofficial Travel Channel. I am sure many, like me, don’t post but also think this to be true. This shows at least some common agreement on the topic already existed. A google search also shows some references. It is listed on the 333 Radio Plan and even the flyer that comes with the Wouxun KG-UV9g PRO and KG-UV9gx from Better Safe Radio labels GMRS 20 (PL 141.3) as the Travel Channel. My un-scientific review of the repeaters listed on this site it appears that many, if not most, repeaters that claim to be a “Travel Repeater” are on repeater channel 20 (rx 462.670, tx 467.670). CRITERION: MOST IMPORTANT The last criterion, that I can think of, and the most important one, is a nod to, and paraphrase of, Spinal Tap’s Nigel Tufnel. If Nigel was discussing the GMRS Travel Channel debate he undoubtedly would say that GMRS 20 IS one better than GMRS 19. Case closed. ? CONCLUSION We are a relatively new radio service so we could have picked any of our 22 rx frequencies. A look at my criteria above seems to me to make one frequency a little more desirable then the others. But choosing one of the two frequencies prohibited for use in a small but significant part of the country seems like a weak choice. “Some people” may disagree. Before the GMRS Travel Channel Committee gave us it’s decision we had two groups. One group had no idea that there was a Travel Channel and another group that thought it might be, or could be, or maybe was GMRS 20. So, to end the confusion between these two groups the GMRS Travel Channel Committee gave us a third group, the GMRS 19 group. Instead of picking one of the existing groups. I believe that the GMRS Travel Channel “Committee” included one of the most influential, well thought of and entertaining people in the GMRS universe. I agree with the “Committee’s” basic premise (someone just has to make a decision) but (mostly because of the FCC’s Lines A & C) I think the “Committee” was in error with it’s choice of GMRS 19. A similar GMRS “committee” recently declared GMRS 16 as the 4x4 channel using the same “has to” idea. That “committee” pointed out that in math 4 X 4 = 16 so GMRS 16 was the logical choice—THIS WAS INSPIRED. I was considering making the GMRS Travel Channel my stand-by channel so that strangers AND friends can find me, while I am still able to monitor the Travel Channel. But, even though I live on the good side of Line A, a lot of my travels and most of my adventuring takes place on the wrong side of Line A so I cannot use GMRS19 as my stand-by at this time. But this is NOT reason for my rants. Please read my next rant where I propose structuring our GMRS Travel Channel (regardless of frequency) in such a way that might encourage more use of it.

Last year when I was working at MS 150 City to Shore, I was assigned to working Dispatch / Net Control. I did receive some slack from a fellow Amateur Radio for using 10 codes on the 2m repeater and GMRS repeater. Of course, I understand what that person saying, you don't want to heard, that's a BIG 10-4 GOOD BUDDY. After all, the 11 meter dwellers have really made a mockery of what started in the public safety. Sometimes have problems with my speech, but I figured using Ten Codes help me conveying information that I need to get out. There's nothing wrong with using Ten Codes on GMRS or Amateur Radio, as long as the group that you're working are on board with the protocol.

I believe you are correct in that my phase noise comes from unwanted digital oscillations in the VCO circuit of the Exciter or between the VCO and neighboring circuits. SA manufacturers have a feature to remove this from the results, referring to it as a "mirror spur". I don't like suppressing them, because I want to know if there is a quality issue. I haven't built a transmitter in a long time, but knowing if my gear is any good is a plus.

Second or third the AT779UV for value/dollar. great for car use, base station or “man pack”.

Yeah mine had a glow in the dark tip. But 3d printed base. Nice to know they are making changes. Especially, with the warranty if something happens you get a replacement. Lifetime warranty doesn't apply to the stalk antenna. But he sells replacement parts. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Theyve moved over to an injection molded base on the signal sticks within the last couple of batches (bought a sma male one in black around black Friday last year), it's a nicer finish now. They also appear to be using glow in the dark tips on all of them, irrespective of color, which is a nice touch.

I always wondered how hailing frequencies are set such that alien civilizations, whom we have never before encountered, know to monitor. Oh, well, for now, if I’m traveling I’ll just listen to channels 19 and 20 simplex, no tones.

Welcome to my Ignore User list. Have a look around. Introduce yourself.

Memoir of a Travel Channel volume lll (the sequel) Reviews: Did not live up to the hype The plot was lost It was better than “Cats” Worse than Caddyshack ll

People learn the most from their mistakes. It's like the little kid in the kitchen. Tell them don't touch that, it's hot. Turn your back and a few seconds later you hear the scream. Time to get the band aids out. Next time you tell them something is hot they'll believe you and leave it alone.

Not much different than the Sti Co Super flex whips.

If any kind of officiality is desired for things like this, GMRS users should first establish some kind of users group. Perhaps one even exists in stealth mode. Clearly the FCC intends GMRS to be used to provide traveler assistance: § 95.1731 Permissible GMRS uses. The operator of a GMRS station may use that station for two-way plain language voice communications with other GMRS stations and with FRS units concerning personal or business activities. (a)Emergency communications.Any GMRS channel may be used for emergency communications or for traveler assistance. Operators of GMRS stations must, at all times and on all channels, give priority to emergency communications. (b)One-way communications.The operator of a GMRS station may use that station to transmit one-way communications: (1)To call for help or transmit other emergency communications; (2)To provide warnings of hazardous road conditions to travelers; or, (3)To make brief test transmissions. (c)Travelers assistance.The operator of a GMRS station may transmit communications necessary to assist a traveler to reach a destination or to receive necessary services. (d)Digital data.GMRS hand-held portable units may transmit digital data containing location information, or requesting location information from one or more other GMRS or FRS units, or containing a brief text message to another specific GMRS or FRS unit

Yeah, this plot is not very good... However, it was into a 50 Ohm load. A better measure in practice would be to do the same plot using the HT factory antenna, and measuring the same parameters using the off air antenna on the service monitor. A/B more complete characterization. Performance my be worse at 2nd or 3rd..., or could be better. Best I have ever heard is these radios are exactly what you pay for. They do have a giant upside though as people get in cheap with little downside $ risk. Oh, and was the one test sample random? How many were there? Just one won't do. Perhaps some are made that perform better?

Well... Yes. That one would never have occurred to me as rock bands are not on my radar at all. There are a few other codes used on this site I have no idea what they mean, and when I see them again I will ask. I had seen the CCR code enough that I used a google query with "radio" and "hobby radio" and that is how I found it.

Unfortunately, at work. So I"ll just do the signal test as I use it normally. Thanks though

Likely they could, and it would be manufactured in China anyway to keep the cost down.

Well you learned it doesn't stand for the old rock band " Creedence Clearwater Revival" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creedence_Clearwater_Revival

The attached file, found on the Internet, is a test done on the often recommended UV-5R radio. This is the FCC section dealing with emissions on the Ham bands. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.307 Section "e" is worth reading. Particularly about transmitters of 25 watts or less. That would include portable radios. UV-5R VHF Harmonics Test.pdf

No. Signal reports as of today, just got it installed. Btw. Don't run out and buy one just yet. It is a 2m 1/4 wave and 3/4 wave 70cm antenna. 3/4 have a weird radiation pattern and a take off angle of about 60‐70 degrees. So who knows, how this will work in the real world. I should of have taken 2m sweeps but failed to. I really wanted an antenna taller than the 1/4 for 70cm p25 and gmrs, i was also hitting the 1/4 wave in some garages. 2m was not a consideration, so I didn't even bother. Because of the garage/tree thing I started searching for nintinol antennas. 2 came up signal stalk and sti flexi ( about 2x the price). The sti was ruled out for the first round due to the cost and the cut chart would of had it back at 1/4 wave for gmrs/70cm. Might still try it in the future. Going to look at my buddy Seth's sti antenna to see if it is more flexible. ** the signal stalk is flexible. But no where near a signal stick. You will not be able to loop a signal stalk like a signal stick. I think you can loop the Sti (will check when I get the chance). *** DO NOT try to trim with cutters. I recommend a bolt cutter or cut off wheel. Even my pneumatic cutting off wheel at the shop took some time to cut through it. On the order of 5-10 seconds. Usually, it will go through a steel whip in 2 seconds. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Ah! Cool. I'm looking on my phone and my near vision isn't great, even with glasses. New picture looks great! I can't like anything else today. Such an odd limitation.

Sadly hidden and blened in with the telephone pole. Retaking the photo.

Uncut Laird b4505cns. Swr sweep. Always impressed with this antenna. It was mounted in the same place the signal stalk was located. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I didn't mention the radios because the images of spurs are not radio specific, they are symptom specific. Meaning any radio can have those spur types. Also, none of the test were conducted with coax or antennas connected. For the one that was damaged, it was a QUANTAR repeater. As mentioned in the original post, the VCO in the exciter had gone bad. It was repaired with a card swap, placing a new exciter in the radio. After 26 or 27 years in use... I'm sure some silicon-based part went Tango Uniform. The other images, from the TinySA, are from my BaoFeng BF-F8HP handheld and my Yaesu FT3DR.

In my book, superhet beats non-superhet, and since I listen a lot more than I transmit, that's important to me. My choice was between the Midland units and the Wouxun, and because I wanted superheterodyne, I chose the Wouxun. I also like the features and the programmability. I don't regret that purchase at all! It also sent me on a Wouxun buying spree, for some reason. Seems like every HT they came out with, I bought.

@WRQC527, the FT-70 chews up batteries. I sold mine within a few weeks of getting it. The FT-3D and FT-5D have much better battery use and standby times. I used my FT-3DR as a remote net control operator (via my xband repeater in the truck) for a Marine Corps Marathon event. I was non-stop slammed for 5 hours, 50% duty cycle, at 5w. It also has about 6 weeks standby, with the battery in the radio, before the voltage drops to 7.2vdc. With the battery disconnected from the radio, I have no idea how long the storage time is, but I know it's more than 6 months, because that is the longest I ever went between charges on my spares. Even then, they were above 7.2vdc, and I just charged them for an event.

100% anecdotal, I personally have had great luck with the handhelds, especially my BF-F8HP. The mobiles, not so much. Though the BTech brand seems to be making moves in the right direction, based on some recent reviews I've seen on newer HTs and mobiles. For the most part, if you are trying to save money, it's hard to be the price for what you're getting.

That is alot of words. I may have skipped reading one or two as i really only use it for family comms. My official travel channel is whichever one we agree on ahead of a trip.

I'm just wondering... And anyone feel free to chime in here. Who, exactly, is monitoring my GMRS communications for hidden meanings, and more importantly, am I going to get busted for asking my wife to "Rendezvous at Location Sierra Bravo" instead of saying "Meet me at Sonic Burger"?

I approve this message.

I have a friend with a 400 who’s disappointed because it has had some problems. I don’t know exactly what they are. If a person doesn’t need C4FM, the ftm6000 looks like a decent radio.

A friend of mine who has several 400s bought a 300 and as far as he's concerned it's a disappointment in comparison. I think he was spoiled by the touch screen. I'm cheap, I went with a pair of 7250s before they got the axe.

I would add you have a cell phone. It’s okay to use your cell phone. I mean seriously if you want a private conversation radio isn’t it. Sure there’s encrypted radios but that’s not GMRS. Op is looking for a solution where there is no problem. I’m 10-98 ?

First, I don’t know, but here are the regulatory concerns I would have: This places GMRS communications onto the cellular data network. I suspect this is the item the FCC would be most concerned about, if they care at all. If nobody complains then you can probably get away with it. It’s entirely possible that some of the nodes on the MyGMRS network leverage a cellular data hotspot already. Hotspot radio (meaning the transceiver chip built into the hotspot) is not type certified. But really, what’s the point? If you have two people using gmrs radios to talk to cellular hotspots in order to talk to each other, why not just talk on the phone? Is the allure of talking on a handheld radio so great that you intentionally convert to half duplex and push to talk in a larger box? I have a similar lack of understanding for people in the ham world who record QSOs between their handheld radios using hotspots on both ends. Where’s the challenge?

Again we are beating a dead horse. If you want to use some 10 code use it. I can say in Public Safety world very little of the 10 code system is still in play. Other than 10-4 you wont hear it much in public safety. In SAR we have a few "CODES" for critical information but to be honest just go to encryption if we need to discuss that.

For your application I'd go with the Midland. Many in the off road world are using them and it will be simple to use. The MTX575 has the handheld head but cannot be programmed via PC. The MTXT500 will allow you a few custom channels in addition to the standard.

I picked up this one. By filing down the sides it fits perfectly into an empty switch blank in my 4Runner. Mic / control head plugs right into the dash and looks factory. CERRXIAN RJ45 Male to Female LAN... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRZAN3R?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share Using a ProClip console phone mount, angled wedge, and MagneticMic holder. Here’s a shot of the dual NMO antennas; one for the Midland and one for the Wilson WeBoost. Both head units mounted under driver & passenger seats. Both work great! Controlled power for both through the SwitchPro. Top left is the Wilson, bottom left the Midland. Semi-related, but the other coiled cord visible in a prior photo is for the phone. Here’s my DIY dash mount for iPhone. …….and a random glamour shot in its element. In this photo I was trying a Wilson whip antenna, but it broke (and didn’t work too well anyway).

Michael, as you do suffer from Valley Fever and its associated atrophy of higher cognitive functions, Goretex tried to politely state the issue isn't what others state, it's you. You are the one constantly bringing extraneous clutter to questions and possible solutions through the use of non-certified equipment, restating steps just stated by others earlier in the thread and then attempting to dismiss criticisms through your use of very poorly constructed sarcasm or snide comments. I do agree that you have provided some assistance in instances but it is your constant "need to input" on any topic which is the primary issue. In other words, you are not the best, most accurate or final authority on the questions raised by others. Stop trying to monopolize the forum.