Lscott

Welcome to the forum. Lots of recommendations for HT’s. It all depends on if you want new GMRS specific or used commercial radios with Part 95 certification.

Open Repeater Initiative. https://arkradio.net/open-repeater-initiative/

The Canadians don't have access to the repeater input frequencies, however I haven't found anything that specifically prohibits communications using the common simplex frequencies for cross boarder communications. I could be wrong here. Anybody have any info on this?

As far as I know this isn't legal. Also the Canadian GMRS radios, at least the legal ones, don't have access to the 467 repeater input frequencies anyway.

That’s not really duplex. It’s simplex operation using split frequencies. TX’ing on a 467 frequency and RX’ing on a 462 frequency, well good luck hearing anything since there is no repeater to translate the signal on the 467 frequency down to the 462 frequency you’re listening too. Off course the other radio could be setup to do the reverse, however trying to use more that two radios just won’t work because one of the other radios will be using the wrong TX and RX frequencies in relation to the other two. I’ve thought doing something like split frequency simplex to frustrate jammers, at some point in the past, but to accommodate more that two radios requires a more sophisticated method involving fast scanning radios, PL or digital codes to have any hope of getting it to work.

That’s one place I would sort of suspect to find that kind of activity. Since PMR is right there on the Ham 70cm band with the channels starting at almost the calling frequency of 446 I think it would get noticed. Things like foreign language use, no call signs, kids screaming/babbling and general screwing around on the air would be clues to unlicensed use. Since you mentioned you’re are in the LA area I’ve read recommendations not to take your Ham or FRS radios to Mexico. At least where I’m at here in the Detroit area there is a reciprocal agreement between Canada and the USA so operators from either country can use their radios in the other with certain ID requirements being met. As far as I know cross boarder communications on GMRS is not allowed either between Canada and the USA. Of course there is no issue with Hams doing it on the Ham bands.

I thought getting one would be interesting to play with on the Ham 70cm band. I found two more models from Kenwood in addition to the TK-3701. http://www.walkietalkie.eu/documentos/catalogos/cat-en/Cat_KENWOOD_TK3401D_en.pdf https://bhvtotaal.nl/media/productdownloads/t/k/tk-3601d_brochure.pdf I have a TK-D340U that does analog/DMR (TDMA) and a NX-340U that does analog/NXDN (FDMA). https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/DMR_TK-D240V_D340U_K_letter_1124.pdf http://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/05_nx240v_340u_K_1117_typeD added.pdf Either one of these two radios could be programmed to communicate with a PMR/DPMR radio on the Ham Band. What I’m not sure about is if the FDMA digital mode out of the two apparently different digital PMR modes is compatible with NXDN. Anyway has anybody noticed these PMR radios being used by unlicensed people in the US, likely tourists visiting here?

I was thinking if I could get one really cheap to experiment with it might be fun. I looked on eBay to see what a high quality dual mode analog/digital PMR radio costs. In this case a Kenwood. The only one I found was pretty expensive. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenwood-pro-talk-radio-pmr-ProTalk-is-a-tk-3701d-radio-/304087133273?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=724-127637-2357-0 My main point is has anybody stumbled across these radios being used in the US? The European 70cm Ham band runs from 430 to 440 only. Above that are other services. The PMR446 service is the equivalent to our FRS service except they can use digital voice modes. This point should be considered whenever the idea comes up to allow digital on GMRS. The Europeans have shown it can be done and exist along side the analog only FM mode. I’ve read on other forums warnings against US tourists from taking their FRS radios with them while visiting other countries where it isn’t legal. But some do anyway. I assume foreign visitors to the US have done the same with their PMR446 radios. I was questioning if anybody has run across an instance where this happened. And, in that area is it a big problem.

Has anybody any experience with unlicensed use of European PMR446 and/or DPMR446 radios operating on the US Ham 70cm band? I would likely expect this around major international tourist spots like Disney Land etc. Apparently there are 3 different modulation types used depending on radio. Narrow band FM, TDMA (aka DMR), FDMA (similar to NXDN). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446 https://kenwoodcommunications.co.uk/files/file/comms/uk/pmr446/PMR446-White-Paper-V6_18AUG2016_JT_KB.pdf https://www.datamatik.no/media/produkt/tk-3701de.pdf

That’s the way I read it as well.

Read section "A6.2.1 Channel Frequencies:". It specifically states The following 8-channel carrier frequencies are reserved for possible future use as repeater input channels and are not available for simplex communications: Channel Frequency 16467.5500 17 467.5750 18 467.6000 19 467.6250 20 467.6500 21 467.6750 22 467.7000 23 467.7250

I can read very well. Your issue has nothing to do with Part90/95 debate but is about a dual service radios, Part 97/95. The statement stands as I wrote it. To end the debate over the issue you mentioned was getting the FCC's interpretation of the rules. You seem to be intent on proving your point, well back it up with the FCC's point of view. Either they agree with you or they don't. In the later case you may have the opportunity to help pay down the national debt by $10K or so. It's really that simple. At least one other poster did exactly as I suggested to you and contacted the FCC about using Part 90 equipment on a Part 95 only service, at least its on topic. We now know what the FCC thinks about Part 90 equipment being used on GMRS, he included their response in his post, regardless of how one reads the rules.

For tracking there is a very nice FREE tracking package that runs on Windows and Linux systems. http://gpredict.oz9aec.net/

The only people whose interpretation of the rules that matters is the FCC's. To cut out all of the debate have you taken this up with your local FCC field office? If they say you're right then that's end of it. Same if they say you're wrong. The safe play is get the official interpretation of the rule(s) in question straight from them. Perhaps nobody on the forum is right. That would far more to useful to everyone than any raging debate here.

I made some contacts on 2 meter sideband. One was between Coldwater MI and Milwaukee WI. The other was between the Detroit area MI and Toronto Canada. Both running 50 watts into a M-Squared loop antenna on the roof of the van I had at the time. https://www.m2inc.com/FG2MHOLOOP

Unfortunately the attitude exhibited by some people doesn’t change until they personally experience the negative consequences of somebody else who feels the rules don’t apply to them. And even then they still might not get it.

A small stick pin in the coax up out of the way and sniped flush works good too.

I was at my Ham Radio coffee break last night. One of the topics for discussion concerned a local CB operator running hugely excessive power. The interference was so bad that a nearby hospital had the FCC track down the source because it was buggering up some of the heart monitors they used on patients causing them to malfunction.

Everyone should encourage compliance with the rules. They're not there for an arbitrary reason. The RF spectrum is a limited resource. The rules are set to try and minimize interference between ALL users of the shared resource. I would encourage you to take a look at the frequency layout for the FRS/GMRS channels, the permitted band widths and power level. What you will immediately notice are the interstitial frequencies lie between the GMRS main channels. In particular the interstitial channels 8 through 14. Those are limited to 0.5 watts and narrow band to minimize interference to the adjacent wide band GMRS repeater input channels. Even at a narrow band width those still overlap the wide band repeater channels. In fact several repeater owners on this forum have commented about interference from FRS radios buggering up things on their systems even with radios that are complaint with the rules. Then there is the issue with dirty radios, the CCR's are the group most likely to be the offenders. If for example one was transmitting on lets say channel 1, 462.55 MHz, the second harmonic would be at 925.15 MHz, right in the middle of the 900 MHz ISM band. https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/compendium/0902.00-0928.00_01MAR14.pdf I had a buddy do the known code plug hack on a cheap Baofeng BF-888S UHF radio to operate on VHF too. It worked. He had a dual band radio that would SIMULTANEOUSLY transmit on the 2M and 70cm band! That ended that experiment quickly. FRS-GMRS Channels Layout.pdf

I'm sure they don't. They're non technical people and the radios are just another tool they use to do their job cleaning up the place. They were likely told you need to contact somebody use this.

Check here and see if any of these might work: http://rsws.zapto.org/RadioSoftware/Kenwood/Kenwood.htm http://www.sm5nvc.se/erak/mod/index.php?path=rig%2Fprg%2FKenwood/ I would suggest you download them and try. Just because it says "KPG70D" doesn't mean it really isn't the version you need. I've run into that several times. Using the software make sure you select the right model. Usually there are multiple to pick from, like TK-8102K, TK-8102M etc. Close won't work. I checked my listings for software version and they all show KPG-70D should work.

That's true. In my case I had to monitor for some weeks to catch them when they use their repeater. It wasn't until I heard the same voice on the licensed mall security frequency on the GMRS repeater frequency several seconds later mentioning the same issue to the mall's house keeping staff I figured out who it was. The next step was looking up the mall's security FCC license info, I had their FCC assigned call sign. Then I used the FCC's "FRN" number for the mall to do a search by FRN for ALL licenses held by the mall in the FCC database. That's when when I saw the expired GMRS license. The detailed info showed the exact frequency they were originally licensed to use, which was the one I heard the activity on. That nailed it. The FCC database is a gold mine of info. But you have to know how to use it.

On the radio side you have basic several choices to make. 1. Do you want a hand held radio? 2. Do you want a mobile only radio, that could also be used as a base? 3. Numbers 1 and 2 above. 4. Do you want a purpose designed GMRS radio? 5. Do you want a used commercial radio, lets say a Motorola, Kenwood or Vertex for example. 6. Do you only want Part 95 certified radios, highly recommended? The prices will vary from under $100 to well over several $100's depending on your choice. Usually the performance is better with the higher price points, but not always. The general opinion is the used commercial radios perform better than the cheaper offerings from the Chinese manufactures. Personally myself I have a rather large collection of commercial Kenwood hand held radios. Another member is a very strong advocate for Motorola gear and won't touch anything else. One thing is for sure, you'll get a lot of opinions one way or the other. One other point, if you are considering getting a Ham license at some point that may change your choice of which radio(s) to get. Some model of radios will allow you to enter NON GMRS frequencies in them, like for the Ham 70cm band. For those radios you can use on both services without requiring two separate radios. One radio I've been using lately, which is Part 90 and 95 certified is the Kenwood TK-3170. The software will allow out of the officially supported band range frequencies so I have both GMRS, and a bunch of Ham 70cm repeaters programmed in to it. The later when entering those frequencies the programming software will generate a warning but accepts the entry when you acknowledge the message. The Kenwood radios I have in my collection that have the required Part 95 certification for GMRS are: TK-370G-1 https://mra-raycom.com/wp-content/uploads/simple-file-list/Specifications/portables/TK-270G-370G-Product-Brochure.pdf TK-3140 type 1 http://rsws.zapto.org/RadioSoftware/Kenwood/tk-2140-3140.pdf TK-3170 type 1 https://www.wirelessvoicedata.com/downloads/kenwood/kenwood-tk-2170-3170-brochure.pdf TK-3173 type 1 http://www.secomwireless.com/KWLIT/LIT_TK-3173.pdf TK-3180 type 1 https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK-2180_TK-3180.pdf TK-3212 type 1 http://www.deisradio.com/files/TK-2212-3212 Brochure.pdf The commercial radios come in different frequency ranges. Make sure the "type" you are buying covers the frequency range for GMRS, 462 MHz to 467 MHz. Also don't forget for any radio you'll need to get the programming software and cable for it. That's very important for the commercial radios since they can't be programmed from the font panel. Antennas, coax, mounting etc. that is a whole other topic.

This proves how easy it is to make basic antennas that work. Like you said it isn't petty but gets the job done.

This is nearly the same argument made by advocates for using Part 90 only certified radios on GMRS. The core of that position is the spec's are the same or better on the Part 90 radios compared to Part 95. The only different is the paperwork that says they're OK. So far the FCC hasn't formally moved in that direction yet either.