Lscott

The TK-3170 is a nice radio. I own a few of them.

I know this thread is a bit old. I think a few people might find the following of interest. https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/militia-radio-frequencies/ Scroll down and look at the third photo in the main body of the article. Then read the caption under it. The FCC may have had good reason for the notice.

The post I responded to was: "No, just as a licensed amateur operator cannot legally communicate with an unlicensed person, neither can a licensed GMRS operator legally communicate with an unlicensed person." The nature of the "unlicensed person" was not specified in the post so I used the widest definition that is confined to FRS and GMRS services. It's obvious the FRS operators are not directly licensed by the FCC but communications between licensed GMRS operators and the "unlicensed person", A.K.A. FRS operator, is in fact permitted. That was the point. To add a finer point FRS operators who are using their radios are authorized as licensed by rule, so by some measure they are licensed. While the statement about the amateur operator is correct, everyone MUST have a valid call sign thus licensed, but when extending the analogy to GMRS/FRS, which shares the same simplex frequencies it breaks down. I think when statements like the quote above are made they should be more qualified. Too often new people get needlessly confused. That's the last thing needed here.

So a person using a legal FRS only radio and a licensed GMRS user using a Part 95 certified radio can’t communicate for example? That’s after the FCC changed the frequency assignments so simplex operation was facilitated between the two?

Take a look at this one. https://dpdproductions.com/products/dual-band-gmrs-murs-mobile-antenna

For the TK-8180 I think you need to download and install the programming software for the radio. It should be the KPG-89D located here. There are other locations to find the software. The latest version is V1.61 I believe. Older ones will likely work too. Just make sure you have the serial install key. Normally most of the packages include one in a text file. http://rsws.zapto.org/RadioSoftware/Kenwood/ You will also need a programming cable for it too. Commercial radios are great to use on GMRS but are impossible to setup, or nearly so, without the programming software. Any used commercial radio you are thinking about buying make sure you can get the correct programming software and cable for it FIRST. If you can't the radio will end up being an expensive paper weight.

Does anybody have info on the various Kenwood radios memory file structure? Some of the radios seem to encrypt the contents past the header. On a couple of those it appears a simple “XOR” of the bulk of the file was done. How and where the software figures out the key, looks like a single byte, is save in the file I’m assuming. It doesn’t seem to remain the same if the code plug changes on a given radio model. I’ve been principally looking at the combo analog/digital models TK-D340 (DMR) and the NX-340U (NXDN) models.

Well, first are you interested in only new radios or would taking a chance on buying a used one? The answer to that would narrow down the recommendations a bit. There are a few new models while there is a forest of used commercial grade radios available. Some of those are Part 95 certified so are legal to use. Some people only want FCC part 95 certified equipment. Others are OK with the Part 90, the typical certification for commercial radios. There are by the way some commercial radios certified for both Part 90 and 95. So far the FCC seems to ignore people using Part 90 only certified radios, but one should not assume that will continue to be the case.

If you're really interested in this radio I would research it a lot more. Rugged Radios has been known to take cheaper Chinese radios, rebranded the radio and sold them at inflated prices. Somebody here will likely recognize the original manufacture, if the radio was rebranded, and where you could buy one much cheaper.

Do not use RG-58 cable at these frequencies for anything other than short runs. You are much better off using RG-8, LMR-400, Beldin 9913 or some type of heliax, typically 1/2 inch or larger, for the run. Also it is strongly advised to use "N" type connectors. You may need an "N" type to a PL-239 adapter for the end going into the back of the radio unless you make a cable with it on the end. You can check here for coax cables. They may custom manufacture a cable for you. https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=344&sort=20a http://www.cablexperts.com/cfdocs/index.cfm

Very good question! I meet with a group of guys at the Rams Horn Thursday night around 6:30 PM on Middle Belt Road south of Joy Road for coffee, at least when the governor let the restaurants open. We're all at least Ham Radio people. Whenever I'm out that way I try that GMRS repeater. So far nothing. The Troy 575 machine, close to I-75 and 16 mile road, works and there are around 30 some people who have requested access to it so far. A regular net meeting is being organized for Sunday nights at 7 PM https://mygmrs.com/repeater/3562 Also there is what I believe to be a GMRS repeater illegally being used by the housekeeping staff at the Lakeside Mall. This might be an old system grandfathered in by the FCC, but I haven't found any license to verify this. For a while now I’ve been picking up sporadic communications on the Troy Repeater’s output frequency from some maintenance staff, at the time the source was unknown. I’m sure this is the Lakeside Mall's housekeeping staff since I heard a call about a hand sanitizer station that needed a battery replacement on the mall’s security frequency. Tthen a second or so later I heard the same exact guy calling the mall’s maintenance staff on FRS/GMRS channel 16, the same channel the Troy repeater uses. I've never heard anybody ID nor a repeater ID. I found the PL toned used is 186.2 Hz. This is a different tone from the one used by the Troy 575 repeater.

I general VHF works better under the conditions you describe. The radio service that works on VHF is MURS. It is a license free radio service. The limitation you will find are the radios are restricted to no more than 2 watts of power. http://www.firestik.com/Tech_Docs/murs.htm https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/multi-use-radio-service-murs Some typical MURS radios. https://baofengtech.com/product/murs-v1/ https://bettersaferadio.com/shop/two-way-radios/tera-tr-505-dual-band-gmrs-murs-handheld/ A note about the FRS radios. If they are more than a few years old they were likely manufactured to work under the old rules which limits the power to 1/2 watt. The newer radios are allowed up to 2 watts on (most) of channels. Under GMRS rules you can generally run higher power, which may not be that great of an advantage at the higher frequencies used. The following link shows the channels, bandwidth and power allowed by either FRS or GMRS radios. GMRS by the way requires a license while FRS does not. New FRS radio do not have the means to access the additional frequencies for repeater access per the FCC rules. Only GMRS radios are allowed to use those frequencies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service If you have GMRS repeaters in the area you can access where you plan to operate then GMRS would be a better choice in that case.

Well first there are no "Ham Radios" that are also certified for GMRS in spit of what you may read on various web sites. There are many Part 90 commercial radios, and some even include Part 95 certification, that are designed and tested for outdoors operation so are weather proof, rain - dust etc. Many of those radios can be programmed to operate over part or the full Ham 70cm band. I have the following models from Kenwood. There are others from Motorola along with other major manufactures. TK-370G https://fccid.io/ALH29473110 https://mra-raycom.com/wp-content/uploads/simple-file-list/Specifications/portables/TK-270G-370G-Product-Brochure.pdf TK-3170 https://fccid.io/ALH34713110 http://www.swscomm.com/kenwood/TK-2170_3170.pdf TK-3140 https://fccid.io/ALH32263110 https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK2140_3140.pdf Be careful of the model type. Look at the specifications because the UHF radios come in several frequency ranges. For GMRS you want to cover at least the 460 MHz to 470 MHz range. A few models will cover 400 MHz to 470 MHz which is perfect for Ham and GMRS. I have successfully programmed the above models down to about 440 MHz which covers the repeater and most of the simplex section of the Ham 70cm band per the ARRL published band plans. The software will put up a warning window about the out of band frequency but will accept it anyway when you click OK. https://www.icomamerica.com/en/amateur/amateurtools/US-Amateur-Band-Plan-10-2017.pdf

If you want a radio you can depend on in an emergency I would not recommend any of the cheap Chinese radios. The really cheap ones have no real resistance to drops, rain, dust etc. I dropped a cheap BTECH tri-band radio on a cement floor. The speaker died. Yeah it’s ok for a glove box radio or cheap scanner on the desk but it won’t hold up to hard use. I have a collection of Kenwood, commercial grade, hand held radios I purchased used. Some had busted cases from being dropped, dirt packed into the speaker grill from being used extensively outdoors etc. when I got them. The radios still worked after cleaning them up and replacing the busted case parts. They were designed and tested for that kind of usage. You get what you pay for.

The Kenwood HT's I have definitely are Part 95 certified, under the old rules, and retains the certification under the new rules. I don't know about all of their models, but one would have to look up the FCC ID to be sure about the Part 95 certification. TK-370G https://fccid.io/ALH29473110 TK-3170 https://fccid.io/ALH34713110 TK-3140 https://fccid.io/ALH32263110

I think in general that by itself is a worthwhile question. If a radio was purchased and was “certified” at the time but later the FCC pulled the certification is that radio still legal to use? I would say any radios sold after the certification was pulled are not legal. However how would a user of a purchased radio would know if the certification was pulled after their purchase and as a user are they under any legal obligation to periodically check?

True. Any radio that will work in the above situation will likely be a commercial radio. Try looking for a Kenwood TK-370G-1, 128 channels, TK-3170, 128 channels or a TK-3140, 250 channels. These are 1 to 4 watt switchable hand held radios, and can be programmed to do wide or narrow band FM on a per channel basis. All of these are Part 95 certified. The radio I normally use is the 370G-1. https://mra-raycom.com/wp-content/uploads/simple-file-list/Specifications/portables/TK-270G-370G-Product-Brochure.pdf https://5.imimg.com/data5/MT/AL/MY-2136226/tk-3170-handheld-portable-walkie-talkie.pdf https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK2140_3140.pdf While the official lower frequency limit is 450MHz for the models that cover the GMRS frequencies but I have programmed them down close to 440MHz in the Ham band. The software pops up a warning window every time you try to enter the out of band frequencies but will accept it when you click OK. The radios will work a few percent outside of the official range. Most of the Ham simplex channels and repeaters are located between 440 MHz and 450 MHz per the ARRL band plans anyway. The main point with these kind of radios is there are I means to front panel program them and nothing like a VFO on a Ham only type radio. What I did on mine is program a sequence of channels with frequencies like 446.000, 446.025, 446.050 etc. The channel names were 446-000, 446-025, 446-050 etc. This gives a fair simulation of a VFO with a 25KHz step size which is pretty standard on 70cm. I think most Hams have their radios programmed for repeater access with a few simplex channels used by a local groups. I’ve recommended the aboveKenwood radios because that’s what I have. There are other very good radios from Motorola and others that members can recommend too.

This is the closest one to me. https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=26&ID=390

Or simply get your Ham license and put up a DMR or D-Star digital repeater. These system are typically linked world wide. https://www.raqi.ca/~ve2rae/dmr/Amateur_Radio_Guide_to_DMR.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-STAR Some analog Ham repeaters also support Echolink or IRLP for example. http://www.echolink.org/ http://www.irlp.net/

Most antennas allow some adjustment. That's usually done by loosening a set screw that holds the whip element in place. What I've done is set the whip down as far as it will go then check the match. If it's too high, and you need to know if the match gets better as you move up in frequency towards the desired mid-band point, or you move down in frequency. If it looks like the whip is too long, the match improves as you move down in frequency to the mid band point, the whip is too long. Try cutting off about a 1/16 inch off the bottom of the whip then repeat the measurement. At the frequencies use by GMRS you have to be careful to only cut off very small lengths of the whip. If the whip is too short just loosen the set screw and move the whip up a small amount. Then recheck the match. On gain type antennas they are normally pre-tuned by the manufacture. Other than the small adjustment in whip height allowed by the set screw it's recommended not to cut the whip. There are several sections on the gain antennas separated by phasing coils. Cutting the whip will likely make things worse since each section would need adjustment. The best and cheapest antenna is a plain old 1/4 wave whip, about 6 inches long. It has the widest band width. I build several out of heavy bus wire and a PCB BNC connector, a 1/4 wave antenna with 4 ground plane elements, as an experiment. I got a 2:1 max SWR over an approximate 430 MHz to 470 MHz range with the min around 450 MHz. The antenna is usable for both the Ham 70cm band and GMRS. For GMRS I would look for the min SWR at 465.144 MHz, which is half way between the lowest simplex frequency and the highest repeater input frequency.

I scored a rather rare Kenwood NX-340U-K2 radio version. It does both analog/NXDN and covers the frequency range of 400 MHz to 470 MHz, perfect for the Ham 70cm band. https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/nx240_340_K.pdf I'm looking for a tutorial on programming this radio, or NXDN in general. I already have all of the operator and service manuals for the radio. In addition I have the technical doc's from the NXDN standards forum too. I registered for a NXDN ID at the same place I have my DMR ID. Just need to figure out what exactly all of the NXDN specific settings do. The help file for the software, KPG-169D V3.03, is rather brief. The license key I have for the software allows me to do both wide and narrow band FM on the analog channels.

From experience the best way to tune your antenna is when it is installed in its final location. Near by metal objects, height above ground etc. tend to affect the antenna. It might not be that convenient but you’ll know the match won’t change because you move the antenna location.

I think the reason why you won’t find any has to do with the fact that GMRS is a licensed service while MURS is not. The FCC several years ago changed the part 95 rules to clean up a very similar mess with the combo FRS/GMRS radios sold at the time. Those radios, before the rule changes, included the 14 FRS, license free, channels along with additional channels that were specifically reserved for GMRS, a licensed service. The radios had a warning about the necessity to get a GMRS license to use the GMRS channels. Just about everybody who purchased those radios ignored the license requirements and used all the channels. Having the license free MURS channels available along with GMRS channels on the same radio with the ability to use either one with a simple channel selector change just repeats the mess. I very seriously doubt the FCC is going to allow that to happen again.

I would recommend you download the service manual for the radio and read through the manufacturers specifications. https://www.qrzcq.com/pub/RADIO_MANUALS/YAESU/YAESU--FT-60-Service-Manual.pdf The first thing that pops up is the frequency stability is only 5PPM. I believe on the GMRS frequencies it needs to be 2.5PPM. The second thing is the narrow band performance. The better radios, typically the commercial radios, have two filters in the receiver section, one narrow band and the other wide band. They are switched in depending on the band width programed. The cheap Chinese radios, and most of the Ham gear from the major manufacturers, save money by using the wide band filter for both. The only thing that gets switch is the max deviation setting and audio gain, increased for narrow band. That means trying to operate with closely spaced stations isn’t going to work so well. While the radio will “work” the poor frequency stability may cause issues with adjacent narrow band channels. All radios will drift in frequency with temperature. The better ones use temperature stabilized reference oscillators to minimize this. The receiver filter issue may result in interference from an adjacent narrow band station’s transmitter.

That's a nice tool when you need to know what your "line of sight" path looks like.