Lscott

I use my CCR at work as a cheap scanner. In the industrial park some businesses cheap out using FRS radios for their shop maintenance staff. A few things I heard would have been better said in private. Spending few extra bucks on the radios with some measure of builtin security would keep busybodies like me hearing what is going on. I guess people get a radio, and never gave it much thought, where one mouth is doing the talking and 100 ears all over the area are hearing every thing said.

If you do go ahead and take the radio you can find the documentation at the link below. http://manuals.repeater-builder.com/Kenwood/kenwood.html You'll have to scroll down a ways to find it. Look for file names like this for example: nx/NX-820/NX-820H(G) Revised_B53-7033-10.pdf I believe the programming software you need is KPG-141D. You would like to get the most recent version. Download a copy here: http://leon880314.com/software-de-programacion-para-radio-kenwood-kpg-141d/ https://hamfiles.co.uk/index.php?page=downloads&type=entry&id=radio-programming%2Fkpg-141-d-prpgramming_2 Or you can buy it from a place like this: https://www.ameradio.com/product/100727/description.html

That may not be possible. Frequently towers on the AM broadcast band “are the antenna” because the frequency is so low. The towers can be a 1/4 wave tall. For example an AM station on 1000Kz a 1/4 wave antenna is about 246 feet tall. Attaching anything to the tower would disturb the functioning to some degree or another. And that’s neglecting the high power RF from the tower coupling into the UHF antenna.

Some of the Kenwood NX series radios will do both analog and digital. The digital part is NXDN, mostly used by railroads with smaller number used by businesses. A few areas in the US see some use of NXDN on the Ham bands. Note that any type of digital voice on GMRS is prohibited by the FCC so only the analog part is of any use. I picked up a Kenwood NX-340U, analog/NXDN, real cheap off of eBay but haven’t done much with it yet. Also got a Kenwood TK-D340 as well that does analog/DMR.

Some of the old Kenwood radios are Part 95 certified. I have the TK-370G-1, TK-3170-K and the TK-3140. All 128 channel UHF radios. While the official lower frequency range is 450MHz on the ones useful for GMRS I’ve used them down to 440MHz or so making them usable on the simplex and repeater section of the Ham 70cm band if that’s of any interest.

It figures. I looked at the wrong radio programming software so what I said in the prior post was wrong. What I wrote in the prior post was for a different radio. I must have around 8 to 10 different model Kenwood radios and the software looks similar, easy to make a mistake. For the TK-3170 the software I used is KPG-101D Version 2.40. In the top menu bar navigate from "Edit" -> "Optional Features" ->"Conventional". You'll see a table that will hold up to 40 tones on the last page. If you click the "Standard QT" button on the lower right the table will be auto filled with the standard tones, both encode and decode. If you don't want the decode tones then you have to click each one and select "none". I don't use the decode tones so I don't care what the repeater outputs or passes through or not. Carrier squelch works just fine for RX on repeaters. Next program one of the side keys or front side function keys for "OST", operator selectable tone. When you press that key you should be able to scroll through the list of tones you entered in to the table. On my radios I assigned it to the "AUX" key on the side of the radio. I hope this clears up the confusion due to my mistake.

Thanks for the history lesson. Learned a bit more about where some of the radio technology came from and why. Just proves there is always something more to learn out there.

I just checked eBay for the DLR1060 6 channel model. Most were very expensive but two were reasonably priced, $50 and $70. I looked quickly at the Moto site for info. You’re right the DLR series is about as basic as you can get.

That was a very nice write on those radios. Your comments about how they out perform typical FRS/GMRS radios in tight quarters is worth noting. That could help somebody who needs a better solution. The experience on a cruise ship with FRS radios is something I’ve read from time to time as being poor, so these radios would be the solution, but not cheap. For me the main point was at the very end, the part where the radios will not interoperate with non-Moto models. That ends any idea I had of scouting out one to experiment with, not to mention the cost.

You should be able to set the tones in the 3170. In the software look for "Operator Selectable Tones". That should pop up a window that lets you enter up to 16 tones, yes it allows split tones too for each entry. Yeah, its a bit limiting but better than nothing. Pick the ones that are fairly common. Normally I never enter a decode tone in my radios so I don't care if the repeater uses the same one as the RX, a different one or none at all on the TX output. Next program one of the side keys or front side function keys for "Operator Selectable Tones". When you press that key you should be able to scroll through the list of tones you entered in to the table. The radios can be modified for FPP, remove a surface mount part and check the box in the software, but you need the full numeric keypad for that. Those radios are not easy to find. When you do they are pricey even used. The most common ones have just the front panel function keys. When I looked at all of the crazy button press combinations, twisting the selector knob on top, for FPP I quickly concluded it was easier to leave he radio as is and just use the software.

Here is a link where somebody tried doing some measurements. It’s worthwhile reading to get an idea what’s involved and the pitfalls too. https://www.hamradio.me/antennas/ht-antenna-comparisons.html

As others have pointed out trying to measure the SWR of the type of antenna that mounts on a hand held radio is difficult at best. I’ve personally have tried nearly a dozen different types. Changing the test setup resulted in wide variations in the measure SWR. In the end about the only thing I could reasonably conclude is antenna “x” seemed better than antenna “y” under the same conditions, which may not translate in to how the radio sees it when installed. I know some of the commercial radios I have use “hybrid power modules” for the output stage. I looked at the data-sheet for a few and saw they were specified to work with an SWR up to 20:1 for one model if I remember right. You could key the radio up briefly with no antenna and likely not blow out the power stage! Hand held radios have to work in many different environments, in your hand speaking into the mic, hanging on a belt with the antenna basically against the body etc. All of which drastically changes the SWR and the radio has to work. If you get a name brand antenna, yeah there are counterfeits mainly from China, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. The only test that has any real validity when measuring hand held radio antennas is the field strength. Some antennas are very inefficient wasting most of the power from the transmitter. Some of the frequently called “rubber duck” antennas, the short semi-flexible rubber coated ones, have been measure with as much as a negative 5db gain, which translates in to roughly 2/3 of you transmitter power wasted in the antenna. That’s why most people look for a “better” antenna for their radio.

Since it's a fiberglass body you need an antenna that doesn't require a ground plane. I would also guess you don't want to drill any holes in the body either. The through the glass antennas that a few people I know that tried them weren't happy with the results. One thing I have seen done is a trailer hitch antenna mount, assuming you have one. The links give you some ideas. https://www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/mfj-trailer-hitch-antenna-mounts?autoview=SKU&sortby=Default&sortorder=Ascending https://www.eham.net/article/38039 Also a few people bolted a bracket to the frame under the vehicle that sticks out on the side. The antenna mounts on that using a small mast. Some more ideas to look at. https://www.eham.net/article/28807

I've used WINE on Linux several times with various software, mostly CAD related. The results have been mostly works to complete failure. Personally I've been watching this project over the years. It's an open source clone of Windows. When it gets to the beta testing phase then things get interesting. https://reactos.org/ berkinet's suggestion is good, trying VirtualBox. I have two VM'm running on a Win 7 Pro machine with 16GB or RAM. One is OpenSuse Leap and a Win XP Pro one. Both work well and show up on the network as if they were real computers with their own IP addresses etc. I can access them locally or from another computer using Windows Remote Terminal app. https://www.virtualbox.org/ Also you should have the ability to install the native virtual machine subsystem included with just about every major Linux distro out there. Then install a copy of Windows. You can get a functioning version here. https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-nt-2000/final Windows 2000 should have no issues running the radio programming software.

I would assume they are not compatible with other manufacture's FHSS radios. If that's the case then one is locked into only buying Moto equipment. Not a good situation.

There are other interesting oddball radio services out there that people are not aware of. For example there are license free 900MHz radios. Some of those radios are not cheap either. Might be fun to play with a few but not at $300+ per unit. https://www.amazon.com/Motorola-DTR700-900MHZ-Licence-Digital/dp/B07PM684WN https://www.motorolasolutions.com/en_us/products/two-way-radios/commercial-business-two-way-radio-systems/on-site-business-radios/dtr-series/dtr700.html#tabproductinfo

I’m curious how many of these radios have shown up in the US by people coming for business or vacations. The PMR446 and dPMR446 radios would end up on the Ham 70cm band. The German FreeNet radios are just above the Ham 2M band. And the radios from Singapore operate between the Ham 1.25M band and the military frequencies around 300MHz. Traveling in the western part of Canada in the back woods using the VHF resource road frequencies seems mandatory. The frequencies are posted which ones to use on the roads. A comment in the article about modified VHF radios, I assume Ham gear, is typically used. https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/canada-vhf-ladd-channel-list/#more-1675 If those frequencies are used in Canada there is a chance they could be used in the US as well. I wonder if anybody had monitored communications on those frequencies that didn’t sound like business, public safety etc.

Other countries have their versions of VHF and UHF radio services. Anybody bump into them being used in the US or had experience using them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446 https://radioaficion.com/news/new-channels-pmr446/ https://www.hfunderground.com/wiki/index.php/245_MHz_VHF_CB https://www.hfunderground.com/wiki/index.php/Freenet https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/canada-vhf-ladd-channel-list/#more-1675

I've done the same thing a few times at another mall close to where I lived before I moved a few years ago. I heard all sorts of crap there from hookers hanging out by the coffee shop inside, one guy brought his gun in once, fights in the food court, mall security kicked out a guy driving through the lot with a license plate scanner looking for cars on a list to repo, a couple doing their "thing" in the back seat etc. I monitor that mall typically all day at work. I have the radio setup on top of the computer with a coax running to a simple 1/4 ground plane built out of a BNC PCB socket and some stiff bus wire. That's on top of my bookcase, better range and the rubber duck antennas the radios come with normally are poor performers. At least that's one thing those CCR's are good for, they make decent super cheap scanners if what you are monitoring is fairly close. Scan speed sucks, but I'm not scanning that many frequencies anyway so it's not too bad. I already had to replaced the battery pack on it because I cycled it to death using the radio 5 days a week scanning. The radio by the way is a BTECH tribander HT.

Interesting suggestion. I’ve talked to the admin for the repeater our local group uses. Yeah, he has heard the occasional chatter too but had no idea where it originated from. Now he knows. So far there really hasn’t been any co-channel interference to speak of. I’m not interested, and doubt anybody else is, being the “radio cop”. So until there is a problem will likely leave things as is. At least now IF a problem arises the admin has a good idea where to look. Anyway between the mall security and housekeeping monitoring their communications prove entertaining at times. When the weather is very cold, crummy out, bored or between normal gym visits I go to the mall and walk for an hour or two with the UHF radio inside the coat and a small D-Ring ear phone with a PTT lapel mic. I don’t want to make it obvious what I’m doing. It’s a large mall with two levels where you frequently see a significant number of people doing the same thing. If something is going on out of the ordinary I head that way to check it out.

Well I haven’t been that motivated to dig around in the FCC database looking for a possible grandfathered license holder for those frequencies yet. Your idea of putting another repeater on the same frequency with the same PL tone I’m sure would annoy them. So would simply high jacking it, after all it is on a legal GMRS repeater channel. If the user/owner doesn’t want anybody else on their machine they can contact all parties and inform them as such. When that happens the question becomes under whose operating authority, FCC license holder, can deny general public access. Of course if the repeater is illegally operating most likely it will simply shut down or move to a business frequency. I was walking around the mall tonight just for some exercise and noticed an HT sitting on top of the push trollies used by the housekeeping staff as I walked by. It looked like your typical basic black commercial Motorola radio. So they are not using some COTS GMRS radios. Those Motorola’s had to be specifically programmed for the frequencies used.

So it apparently can be done with Motorola radios, useful info. I have Kenwood. I haven't really looked that hard but none of the radio programming software I can get my hands on allows changing the serial number even with the so-called "engineers" or "dealer" keys. I have forced a radio to a different "market code" something the software says if you get wrong the first time can't be changed, well I did several times on the same radio using the "engineers" key. So much for that. The problem is Kenwood is disabling the engineers function in the software for the newer radios so even if you had the right key it won't allow you to change certain things. I had to track down a special version of the software for an analog/NXDN radio to unlock the read write password protection a few weeks back for recent radio I got. I was able to write a blank code plug to it thus disabling all password protection. The radio sold real cheap likely because even the dealer that sold it to me couldn't unlock it.

I've experienced the same thing. A local mall 4.7 miles line of sight from my house is apparently using GMRS repeater channel 16. The same channel as the repeater I use along with nearly 30 others. The repeater seems to be used by the "housekeeping" staff and uses a different PL tone from the one the local GMRS community uses. After weeks, hours at a time mainly in the evening, I've never heard anybody ID nor does the repeater ID. As suggested it might be an old grandfathered system but somehow I seriously doubt it. I know where the repeater is located due to a topic mentioned on the Mall's security frequency. Then a couple of seconds later I heard the exact same person calling the Mall's housekeeping staff on the GMRS repeater about the same issue. The security staff use Motorola radios, been there enough times and watched them. At this point I don't know if the "dispatch office", AKA security, has two radios, one for their use and the other for housekeeping or more likely one radio with both frequencies programmed in to them. So far I don't know what kind of radio is used by the Mall's housekeeping staff. Since its repeater capable it likely either a GMRS radio or a commercial radio programmed with GMRS frequencies setup for repeater operation. Of course somebody could have programmed some CCR's to save money and used them.

The first thing I do when I receive a used radio is read and save to original code plug. Just about every commercial Kenwood HT radio I've worked with has two areas for storing an internal message, one of which is password protected. Out of a dozen or so used HT's I got only one had that message blocked filled in. That radio came from a university located in New Jersey based on the name in the message. Also based on a name and phone number in the message it was setup to work in conjunction with a certain company's line of wireless two way emergency call boxes. I always put my Ham call sign and home address in the internal message block for any code plug I write to a commercial radio with that feature. Additionally if the radio has a LCD display, typical 16 channel radios don't have any, I have my Ham call sign displayed at power up as an added ID feature. One other feature the radios have is an electronic serial number which can't be erased or changed through any software I've been able to find. The radio programming software lets one read the model number, firmware version and serial number from the radio, even if its password locked. So far I haven't seen a radio where somebody attempted to remove the external serial number tag indicating the radio might be stolen.

I agree. I have a Ham Radio buddy that got permission, yes it's possible, several times to use his HT on a commercial jet flight. There was a bit of a pile up when you're talking 500 to 1000 miles radius from 30,000 feet on FM.