Logan5

Yep sealant lined tubing is all I buy these days, I still have a lot of the old stuff, I use when appropriate. Definitely check E-bay, several sellers with assortments and or bulk discounts if your stocking up.

Yep sealant lined tubing is all I buy these days, I still have a lot of the old stuff, I use when appropriate. Definitely check E-bay, several sellers with assortments and or bulk discounts if your stocking up.

I've used the marine heat shrink with sealant in it, and it's great.
When I want a sealed end, whether with or without the sealant I just pinch the end with pliers while the tube is nice and hot. That welds it closed.

have repaired a few antennas using heat shrink tubing worked great and cheap

I would like to add that it generally takes 2 s-units to hear an appreciable difference in signal strength. So as long as your 1 watt is enough to be heard without dropouts, it will take 16 watts to make any real difference.
If your signal is readable at a 1 watt "low" setting, there is no reason to switch to "high" power as that will only drain your battery faster. The 4 or 5 watt setting only has any relevance in a case where the low setting is strong enough to be heard, but is dropping out.
 
In my experience, there is zero reason to seek out the 40-50 watt "H" version of a particular mobile radio. It really won't do anything noticeably better than the standard 25 watt radio. But it will use more battery power, get hot faster, and find any substandard connections in your wiring faster than the lower power radio. It will also subject you and any bystanders to more RF exposure. And it is more likely to negatively affect the computer and other electronics in your car or home. That's much more prevalent than you might think, too. The manufacturer of your vehicle or home computer couldn't care less about your 2-way radio activities.

Absolutely, finding higher ground should be the first step towards improving a setup. Running more power only matters on fixed setups where the antenna is already as good as it can get, or on mobile operation where there is no 'finding a good spot'. Even then, there's not a huge difference between 15 and 40 watts.
 
Here's my first piece of advice for new users (and I have a bunch, fair warning): use scan mode on a radio that will tell you the active CTCSS tone or DCS code if you're looking for repeaters to use. RTL-SDR is also a good tool, and makes the entire 462 MHz band visible with good sensitivity and excellent selectivity.
 
Especially on fixed setups, grounding is important. Noise will get picked up along the coax and travel up to the antenna, where it enters the receiver. The effect is very apparent on SDRs, where the noise floor is directly visible. When grounding a setup, check for ground loops with a multimeter.
 
Learn to recognize the busy-channel indicator on your radio. When the radio detects any activity on the channel, regardless of correct CTCSS/DCS, it'll turn on the busy-channel indicator. It'll help you to know if you have the correct CTCSS/DCS for a particular system. Some repeaters use multiple CTCSS/DCS, so this indicator can be useful on those repeaters to make sure you aren't interfering with a different conversation. On Baofeng's radios, this is the green LED on top of the radio. On Motorola's commercial radios, this is a blinking red or green LED near the antenna; on their FRS/GMRS radios, this is the red LED above the display.
 
Some repeaters transmit CTCSS/DCS back to you, but only while someone is transmitting to it. If you're hitting the repeater but can't hear it come back to you once you finish transmitting, this could be a possible cause. Use the monitor feature on your radio or check the busy-channel indicator to check for the repeater's tail.
 
Don't be afraid to try simplex. If you hear a callsign with variable signal strength, they're probably not going through a repeater. It's rare to find contacts that way, but that's largely because hardly anyone calls for contacts on simplex. 462.5625 (channel 1), transmit and receive CSQ; and 462.6750 (channel 20), transmit CTCSS 141.3 and receive CSQ are good places to try calling CQ.
 
People who use MDC-1200 on their radios don't actually have to hear the data bursts, the radio can detect the burst and mute it. It gets annoying so most people with MDC-1200 radios have their radios like that.
 
This forum sure does love their Kenwood TK-880s and Motorola M1225s. They're great radios, but terrible general-purpose radios. Virtually all commercial radios can only be programmed by computer software, so you have to know ahead of time what you're going to talk to. Speaking of commercial radios, used Motorola HT1000 radios are incredibly durable and inexpensive. They use the same programming
 
Don't waste your money on the BTech GMRS mobiles, the quality control is practically absent. The GMRS-V1 is apparently alright and Part 95 accepted. Use CHIRP for programming; it will save a lot of time and headaches, while allowing for named channels.
 
When buying a used radio online, make sure the frequency range actually includes 462-468 MHz. For handheld radios, make sure that you are getting (or already have) a charger and antenna. The battery is probably shot, so include a replacement in your budgeting. I like to have at least one spare battery, so I can continue using the radio while a battery is charging. Don't transmit on a handheld radio while it's charging.
 
Counterfeit antennas are a thing, especially with Nagoya. Buy from trusted sources, or find a friend with an antenna analyzer or VNA who'd be willing to show you how to see if an antenna is good or trash. Be willing to learn how to use test equipment, or at least be aware of what that test equipment is testing. It'll help greatly in the future when you are faced with new problems.
 
GMRS isn't ham radio, but it's often used pretty similarly to 70cm. Ham radio clubs are still a useful resource where you can make lots of friends with lots of knowledge. If you don't have a ham license, they'll pressure you to get one. A Technician-class license is easy to get, costs much less than your GMRS license, and you may even be able to use the same antenna for 70cm. Different clubs have different focuses, so don't get discouraged if you don't feel a particular club is right for you. Depending on the area, hams may not like GMRS for one reason or another; but recognize the common interest in establishing reliable communications between licensed operators.
 
There's a 30 MHz gap between 70cm and GMRS, so most 70cm antennas with appreciable gain don't work on GMRS (and remember you're usually transmitting at 467 MHz, not 462 MHz). Check your antenna's documentation to see how much bandwidth you have. Most handheld antennas are broadband enough, and most commercial-band antennas actually work better on GMRS.
 
Don't put up a repeater until you know exactly what you're doing. There's enough deaf GMRS repeaters out there. Don't take on the task alone, either. The more support you have, the better (and, for you, cheaper) the repeater can be. Even a low hilltop provides significantly more coverage than a rooftop repeater. Sites cost money, but can cost a heck of a lot less if you get to know some repeater folk and can make a good sales pitch. Don't use LMR-400 for repeaters.
 
Getting above the roofline makes a big difference in suburban areas, particularly when trying to work hilltop sites. For more rural areas, try to get above the treeline if possible. If you're the only one-story house in a block of two-story houses, ouch.
 
Be it ham radio or GMRS, remember that the radio hobby is about communication. This includes, but is not limited to: rag chewing, technical talk, emergency communication, repeater building, proselytizing the wonders of properly configured radios, and being willing to help the confused. A lot of people out there try to assert their dominance over a channel and run around with a better-than-thou mentality, and over the course of your license you'll find at least one of them. They aren't out to improve either service or what each service stands for, so stay away from them. Don't let them change your perception of the radio hobby, either.
 
If you hear confused FRS users on channel 1 that can't get their radios to talk to each other, offer to help. Transmit CTCSS 67.0 and receive CSQ. They'll probably need help configuring CTCSS on their radios. Ask for the model number and look up the manual on Google. Stuff like this happens more often than I'd like to admit, and half the time those people spent a lot of money on those radios. Be a good citizen.
 
Some repeaters will beacon out their callsign. That doesn't mean there's anyone using it. Repeaters aren't supposed to do that, but not everyone has a good repeater controller. It's almost universally agreed upon that such repeater behavior is super annoying.
 
Not all repeaters identify, and that can make it a pain in the rear to figure out who owns the repeater. It's usually private repeaters that don't identify, and some legally don't even have to. It's another fact of life that makes frequency coordination difficult for repeater owners.
 
The FRS channels, especially 1-14, are flooded with business users. They're allowed to be there, and aren't looking for conversation. Let them be. They're close enough together (a few hundred feet, typically) that they won't even notice you're on the same frequency as long as you're on a different CTCSS/DCS code.
 
Not everyone is following the rules. Report egregious violators to the FCC, but don't expect enforcement action. Report criminal activity (eg. terroristic threats, use of radios in a crime) to law enforcement, not the FCC. If you happen to know who the perps are, tell the FCC as well. You probably won't encounter any such activity.
 
If you start getting involved in the commercial radio users crowd, be it on 70cm or GMRS, you'll see a lot of brand loyalty. I'm a Motorola guy, since those are the first commercial radios I got involved with and those radios meet all of my needs. We have a lot of Kenwood folk on here, and boy do they love their TK-880s. Both make rock-solid commercial radios. There's other brands out there, too. Stay away from cheap Chinese radios, those are markedly not rock-solid radios and may not have any type-acceptance whatsoever. It's generally accepted that radios with commercial (Part 90) type acceptance are fine for GMRS (Part 97E) operation, since Part 90 requirements are more stringent in terms of RF performance. While the FCC is yet to make an official exemption, they allude to it frequently in the 2017 rule change discussion.
 
Directional antennas (mostly Yagis or log-periodic antennas at these fequencies) are terrible general purpose antennas, since you need to know the direction towards the stuff you want to talk to. Commercial omnidirectional antennas covering 460-470 MHz at a minimum make the best general-purpose antennas. Browning's BR6157 is a good starter antenna, with some gain and a wide bandwidth. If you spend more than $60 on one before any sales tax, you've overspent.
 
Use FakeSpot when shopping for radios or accessories on Amazon. Don't get ripped off by fake reviews.
 
Monitor channel 1 (again, transmit CTCSS 67.0 and receive CSQ) during disasters. You may save someone's life. Prioritize your safety highest; you're still a victim.
 
Don't be a dillweed on the air that hides from consequences behind a microphone; respect is reciprocal. Not everyone you'll meet understands this.
 
When you got your GMRS license, your whole family just became GMRS licensees as well. Come up with a separate simplex channel for them and them only. It's useful when outdoors, communication between vehicles on road trips, or during disasters. Having a nationwide license to operate a radio without frequency coordination, and with unlicensed operators on FRS, is a beautiful luxury we have on GMRS that you will get nowhere else. Make sure to test your channels ahead of time, and check them regularly if you don't use them often.
 
I mentioned it earlier, but I'll elaborate on it: RTL-SDR is an excellent tool for GMRS. All of the output channels are visible with a spectrum analyzer-type visualization. Interference becomes easy to spot and identify. CTCSS and DCS decoding is straightforward and nearly instant, and works with hardly any signal strength at all. Signal strength readings can be calibrated against an absolute scale (dBm), which allows for comparison between antennas and locations. A fancy setup of them, Kerberos SDR, can do direction finding with real-time map plotting, but requires some technical knowledge. SDR is fairly recent, and there's plenty of user groups online (like Reddit's r/RTLSDR). When shopping for RTL-SDR, don't spend more than $30 for a bare unit, and don't buy anything that doesn't have a 1.0ppm TCXO or better. If the item description doesn't say TCXO, it doesn't have one.  RTL-SDR Blog v3 is a good unit, and the Nooelec NESDR SMArTee performs the same. Throw the RTL-SDR Blog 20dB LNA on there as well, life will be much better. Use a USB 2.0 extension cord with SDRs.
 
Talking on a handheld radio while driving a vehicle is illegal in California under the cell phone laws. Mobiles, with a simple PTT-only hand mic, are fine.
 
Don't get a 16 or 48 channel radio as your first real commercial or commercial-grade radio. Go for something with at least 128 channels and a screen. Get the programming software and cable before you get the radio so you aren't stuck with a paperweight. Don't give money to HamFiles.
 
If you have a lot of long conversations but all you have is your handheld radio, get a mobile radio and a power supply. Use a proper antenna (as discussed earlier) and some low-loss coax (RG-8, LMR-240, or better). PL-259/SO-239, also called the UHF connector, is a terrible connector at UHF. Avoid it wherever possible. Use TNC or N for permanent or semi-permanent connections, and BNC for connections you switch out a lot. Keep your connectors clean and seal any outdoor terminations. Assume each adapter adds 0.5-1dB of loss, so use as few adapters as possible. Get your coax terminated in whatever connector your antenna has; don't leave the adapter outdoors. Mastic tape gums up over time and future you will hate present you. If you use cheap non-outdoors coax like I did, it can get water ingress. SWR will still show a rather normal reading, but the wet insulator will suck up all your RF (easily 99% of it).
 
Good coax is thicker than you think. Take that into consideration.
 
Folk at your local ham radio club, or GMRS club if you live in an area with one, have done enough fixed radio installations to be able to help you with yours. Don't go out alone and do it, but take some notes so you can eventually help others. Honestly, they're not that hard.
 
If you're in a place that gets thunderstorms more than a few times a year, lightning protection is a real concern. Nothing will stop a direct strike, so unplug your equipment during such inclement weather. That's another reason to keep portable radios around.
 
Repeaters almost always use hardline instead of flexible coax. Hardline is expensive and requires special tools. Good feedline is critical on repeaters because you usually have a 40-watt transmitter on the same antennas as a sensitive receiver. Slight non-linear effects, even a rusty fencepost nearby, can cause issues with receiver performance.
 
If you have an opportunity to visit a hilltop repeater site (an opportunity you may get if you're involved with repeater groups), take it. The first trip to one is an experience, and you'll get to see a variety of real-world installations. Hilltop sites are surprisingly dirty; nobody's up there keeping the floors clean. Some sites are cleaner than others. It's often a long drive and fair distance from civilization, so bring a lunch and go to the bathroom before the trip. Some sites require four-wheel drive and an experienced driver to get to. Buy their dinner.
 
Flat areas can get significant coverage from a low-level repeater. Rooftop repeaters actually have decent performance in those environments.
 
Even on rooftop antennas, your simplex range to a five-watt mobile/portable can be as short as two miles. GMRS is heavily influenced by line-of-sight propagation. Building penetration is better than MURS or 2-meters. 

I have seen a few posts talking about getting more distance out of UHF gear, such as the GMRS equipment we use. It looks like the common theme is, many immediately want to go for more power, assuming they can brute-force their way through issues. I am hoping myself and some of the other people who have some training and practical experience can use this thread to help new users understand how to make life better without more power.
 
I want to start with handheld transceivers. HT antennas use your body as a counterpoise. Depending on how you are dressed, how tall you are, how you are holding the radio, the radio position, the distance of the radio from your body, what direction you are facing, all impact performance. Even how much fat, salt and water your body is retaining at the moment impacts how an HT antenna works, because those things vary the conductivity of the human body. In all seriousness, forget about more power... or even more range from a typical HT.
 
If you want more range out of your HT, your best bet is to find higher ground, figure out where the best place to stand is, and what general direction to be facing when compared to the receiving station provides the best communications path.
 
 
Mobile antennas are often several wavelengths+ in overall height and the body of the vehicle is typically a much better reflective counterpoise. There is a lot that can be done in the mobile and base antenna world that can help, but for now, lets continue to focus on why 'more power' likely isn't the right answer.
 
 
 
There is a standard in radio communications about intelligibility of radio communications. It is called the 5/9 scale. 0 to 5 for voice clarity and 0 to 9+ for signal strength in s-units. It is said that while a 2/1 signal provides partially usable comms, the lowest "reliable" communications happens at a 3/2 (or 32) and the best is a 5/9+ (often called 599, 59+20, 59+40).
 
With that in mind, you have to quadruple your power to impact a receiver 1 s-unit. So, if the other party is receiving a signal at 1/2 s-unit while you are using 4 watts, you need 16 watts to go to 1 s-unit. You then need to jump to 64 watts for 2 s-units. Finally a third jump in power of 256 watts to get to 3 s-units and possibly getting a reliable communications signal (a 2/3 or 3/3). Depending on the modulation of the carrier signal and bandwidth, you may need to jump to 4 s-units, requiring well over 1,000 watts.
 
Now, lets say the same receive condition exists, but now you are already using 20 watts for that 1/2 s-unit. Now your power jumps are 80 watts, 320 watts, 1,280 watts for 3 s-units and possibly needing 5,120 watts for 4 s-units. Well, the first bump you made already seriously violates power restrictions in GMRS.
 
AND, this is under hypothetical perfect conditions, assuming nothing else changed in the environment. Which almost never exists.
 
Chasing better performance by boosting power typically doesn't give you any truly desirable results. The top 3 items that will help improve comms in almost every band is elevation, elevation, and elevation. From there its antenna tuning (and beams) filters to reduce interference and lowering the noise floor, as some examples.
 
 
 
So, for our technically skill folks... Would anyone like to contribute some general advice for new users to benefit from?
 
General advice on what to do or not to do?

Once again, thanks for all the well thought out reply's.  The reason for the radios is for emergency purpose. I want to run as low of power as possible to save energy in a power outage. I have quality agm batteries to keep things going and solar. I am barely able to get into 2 different repeaters on 5 watts with my BTECH but my signal is nearly full quiet with the BTECH at the 15 watt setting. I'm using a diamond 400 meter and needle barely moves when I check the SWR (far below 1.5).
 My understanding with the Kenwood 880 and the 880H is that the 880 is 5 watts on low and the 880H is 10 watts on low. So, I wondered if the Kenwood's 880H signal at 10 watts is cleaner than the BTECH's so it may sound as good or better than the BTECH running 15 watts.
Most of the reply's seem to refer to the antenna and I believe all of you that it would make all the difference in the world to improve on but at the moment I can't. I do however want a second radio that is repeater capable so I figured I may as well get some advice.
 Something I do like about the BTECH 50x1 that I would lose using the Kenwood is the ability to monitor VHF and having an FM radio. Probably considered gimmicky but I do like the features, (at least it doesn't have a flashlight).
 One more thing, the Kenwood's do have CTCSS correct, since that is what our local repeaters use near me.
 
 Thanks

You can purchase Belden products in many colors, easy to match the color of barrel tile, shingle or trim colors. a Mag mount antenna can be attached to any steel exhaust, kitchen or bathroom vent. Although not an ideal ground plane, again will out preform any indoor deployment. You will be amazed what you can make happen. Especially if you have the extra cash for the upgrades.

I agree with keeping the power as low as possible. The reason I ask about your existing antenna is a 1/4 wave ground plane on top of your house will probably outperform an omnidirectional gain antenna in your attic. And it's not hard to hide one. I make them out of panel connectors and thin copper wire. A thin 6" wire is almost impossible to spot on a roof, especially if you give the connector a light spray of flat brown or black paint.

I'm curious as to the HOA restrictions. The FCC has ruled against many associations having rules against external antennas. If that is the underlying issue, send a copy of the association's rules to the FCC Wireless Telecommunications Bureau and ask them for a ruling. It may be their rules violate FCC regulations and are now unenforceable.

True. Even on my radios with 50 watt settings i rarely run that power level. I certainly dont feel "undergunned" running my 25 watt PM400. Even on that radio i typically run on "low" power which i have programed as 5 watts.  
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Why so much power? Do you really know how much power you actually need? Blasting the airwaves with more power than you need should be avoided. Maybe a quality gain antenna properly installed and that 5.1 watt radio will do the job. anything more would just be noise for other users.

No, they're built better than that. Look inside the radio and you'll see a well-built double conversion receiver architecture. These perform much better than the RF-frontend-on-a-chip Baofengs. Don't jump to the Baofeng conclusion without looking at internal photos.

A radio with a frequency range below 450 MHz cannot receive Part 95 type acceptance due to 95.1761(c ).

5.1 watt is good on UHF, they only preform at anything close to 8 watts on VHF,

As you describe the problem, it seems the noise issue you have is based on reports from other repeater users. If that is the case, you don't have a lot of alternatives -- transmitter quality is probably not an issue. If you only use one repeater, or the two repeaters are in the same direction from your home, you could change to a directional antenna (it would look a lot like a UHF TV antenna and might not incur HOA wrath), or use more power. Note, the difference between 10 and 15 watts is negligible ~1.75dBm.  So, just changing to a better quality radio is not likely to yield much improvement.
 
On the other hand, if your problem is the received signal at your radio, then changing to a radio with a better quality receiver could make a big difference. As discussed in several threads here, the cheap imports have low quality receivers and that might be your problem. Also, a directional antenna and/or better coax would give you a stronger received signal as well.

I would also write the  changes to the radio after each change with CHIRP. Disconnect the radio fro your PC and cycle power on the radio before reconnecting to switch the feature again.

did you simply view the entry in chirp to confirm the radio function, or did you disable and then re enable the FM function? It's worth a shot.

did you simply view the entry in chirp to confirm the radio function, or did you disable and then re enable the FM function? It's worth a shot.

I have a Wouxun KG-UV8D+ and I'm using CHIRP or the Wouxun software to program it. I just can't seem to get it right. The repeater is
462.6000 - Out PL 110.9 - In DPL 712

What I need to know is what gets entered into each column in CHIRP. I don't understand the column abbreviations.

Yes, I learn that lesson about connectors the hard way, next antenna and all after that one will be N connectors... its sealed, and its much easier to get high quality silver plated or tri-metal N connectors than it is for the UHF 239/259 stuff.... 
 
G.

I'm new to the forum. Does anyone make a GMRS repeater capable portable radio?

There have been several discussions recently about buying new vs. used equipment for GMRS.  Since those discussions have been pretty complete, I won't duplicate them here. However, I would like to address one point that seems to get lost, concerns about quality.
 
Many people seem to avoid used equipment under the belief used equipment will be more likely to have problems. If you are comparing the same brand and manufacturing quality, that assumption may be correct. However, when comparing used commercial equipment (Kenwood, Motorola, Vertex, Icom...) to cheap imports (Baofeng, B-Tech, Woxun, Retevis, etc.) it is a different story. Glancing through this forum and in particular Amazoin reviews, you will find many cases of brand new CCRs that had to be replaced. Even with Midland branded gear, several users have reported the need for 2 or three replacements before finally getting something they were happy with.  In addition, you are probably more likely to get good service from a reputable eBay seller than some of the CCRs bought on Amazon and elsewhere.
 
So, if concerns about reliability and quality of used equipment is your sole reason for looking at new radios, you might want to reconsider.
 
Just one more thing to keep in mind when you start looking for equipment.

So this test wasn't very conclusive, partly because we had limited time and restricted terrain. UV-5R and GMRS-V1 were at Point A and my old FRS started at Point C about 1/4 mile away through a flat neighborhood walking away from Point A. The issue we had was the flat neighborhood drops off on both ends after about 1/2 mile so it's hard to test beyond that range.
 
Anyway, reception was clear on the FRS from both GMRS radios up to 1/2 mile, then as we lost line of sight there was quite a bit of noise and choppy audio. Subjectively it seemed like the audio from the GMRS-V1 was less understandable than the UV-5R, but it was close. From FRS to both GMRS radios reception was fine, but dropped off completely once we lost line of sight.
 
So *maybe* the GMRS-V1 has a transmit issue? To @gman1971's point about desensing, I did notice that sometimes when I was holding both GMRS-V1 and UV-5R only one of them would light up and receive from the FRS. Not every time, but probably 1/3 of the time. Holding them farther apart helped.
 
I don't know when I'll have a chance to do another proper test with multiple radios so for now I guess I'll just accept that my practical line of sight range is about 2-3 miles with the radios I have now.

DeoVindice: I am transmitting outside, set high power and I am using the antenna that came with the radio. I'm going to try the CSQ. let you know. If you can think in anything else?...Thanks