gman1971

Hi there,
I own several Motorola and Vertex Standards radios and I am not an expert, far from it. I also have a very large CCR collection, radios like the Wouxun, etc. These CCRs served their purpose which was to got me hooked in this hobby, unfortunately I kept buying them for too long before I realized I made a mistake. Why? B/c after trying nearly every other CCR out there, the moment I tested my first XPR6550 I realized I wasted all my time and my money for far too long on these CCRs. Yes, you can call me a Moto snob now, I am not BTW,... whatever... its your money... Point is I am not an expert, and just don't hate CCRs, but they sure have a lot of limitiations. Once you acquire enough knowledge/gear/equipment to perform useful measurements on your own, you'll begin to realize the same thing I did: why these radios are just called CCRs.
 
If you need range you are going to need a lot more than a portable Wouxun, especially if you live in a suburban area; a lot more than a high gain antenna and an 11 feet pole (like Moses ). For these CCR radios, i.e Wouxun, et. all, you'll need a lot of filtering, and I mean, LOTS of it... Then, the more gain you have in the antenna, and the higher up you raise it, the more RF signals you'l pick up, which is good, but unfortunately not so good for those CCRs which can't deal with such a rush of incoming RF, why? b/c they lack any front end filtering (back to why you'll need filtering)... So what do these CCRs do instead? they desense like its going out of style. What is desense? Desense is like when you have to close your ears at a rock-and-roll concert to hear your friend trying to scream you something... radios have to reduce sensitivity (desense) to be able to hear anything.
 
Don't believe me? well, I guess I would've not believed myself talking about this when I got started either... But here are some real numbers obtained with an ISOTEE and a signal generator. So, hooked up a GD77 to my a Hustler G6 GMRS (6dBd) antenna, placed 40 feet AGL. Measurements read the GD77 desensed ~40 dBm... Yes, you heard that right, -40dBm... it doesn't sound like much... but a -40dBm desense means the radio is now useless. I wish I could tell you this was the only CCR radio that showed this massive desense, unfortunately ALL my other CCRs (under 180 dollars) that I tried desensed about the same figure: -40dBm. That is why they are called CCRs b/c they aren't that good. Now, for comparison, on the same Hustler G6 antenna, placing a portable Motorola XPR6550, also unfiltered, I was able to hear the Signal Generator (SG) all the way down to RF site noise threshold. The usable sensitivity on the GD77 was measured at -72 dBm, and the Motorola XPR6550 usable sensitivity was -116 dBm (unfiltered). To give perspective, on the stock rubber duck antennas, the GD77 had a -100 dBm usable sensitivity, whereas the Motorola XPR6550 had -118 dBm usable sensitivity. (see correction values at the end)
 
If you want range, you should start by acquiring measuring tools. To me, a VNA, a Signal Generator and a simple ISOTEE changed how I see the hobby completely... Now I can unequivocally measure things and make an informed decision, rather than an educated guess, or a guess, or "bro'science".... and those tools are just "basic tools" compared to what more expensive service monitors can do. Once you have measuring equipment you'll be in a position to measure things like noise floor, cable quality, connector quality... and you'll be able to tune your own filters, cavities... After you have those tools, then you'll quickly realize you need better radios than a Wouxun. Nowadays, when high quality radios like the XPR6550 can be found used on eBay for ~100 bucks, there is literally zero reason to own a CCR for GMRS... While some XPR6550s might be a bit scratched, some might be rehoused... etc... they still work great for GMRS... and how much better than a CCR? At best, ~21 dBm better than nearly all CCRs I measured with rubber duckies... at worst, -44dBm better using a high gain 6dBm base antenna placed 40 feet AGL. 
 
Again, I don't hate CCRs b/c I now I own Motorolas and everything else is is crap. I still own a ton of them CCR and they are great, just not when the word range is involved. For small stuff, like giving to your 3 year old to start liking radios, loaners... plenty of uses.... all great, but once you find you like the hobby, don't be fooled by the CCR's fancy color screens, bells and whistles, gazillion contacts, etc etc... Buy high quality used commercial grade radio(s)... which might or might not even have a screen, screens don't make radios great... good RF performance does... and there are a LOT of good used commercial grade great radios on eBay (like the XPR6550.) There are also many very helpful members here (like @Marcspaz, thank you) who will help you setup these commercial radios if you are stuck.
 
G.
 
EDIT: Correction, after going over my notes the ISOTEE figures I quoted from memory for the rubber duck are actually for a 1/4 wave magmount, and the Motorola XPR6550 UHF is -116 dBm and the GD77 is -93 dBm...  I am sorry for the mistake.
EDIT2: The rubberduck I just performed the test with the ISOTEE, and the Motorola XPR6550 yields the same -116dBm as with the 1/4 wave, and the GD77 is -96 dBm. This was measured in the quietest RF place in my house with a noise floor of -123 dBm average. on 462.600 MHz.

Here's the thing, for some of us, its entertainment or emergency communications.
 
However, my family use our radios around the house while working in the yard, while racing my car to talk to my corner spotters and crew from the track, while fishing, 4wheeling, hiking, spending time at the park, caravaning somewhere with multiple vehicles, and on and on.
 
The list of things in our lives that we can integrate radio for the better is endless. Therefore the "image" to draw people in are endless. The best way to advertise isn't with someone specific to radio or activities you can improve with radio, but rather, find a common image that will have the most amount of impact on the heartstrings of your target demographic. The radio really has nothing to do with it. People buy toys and non-essential products based on emotions, using how they feel to justify spending the time, money and effort.
 
That is... if that's really what the end goal is. If you're trying to sell radios, learn your target demographic. Asking folks like us is going to be a mixed bag of tricks that's just going to cloud that even more.

Back... haven't checked regularly in a while... sorry about the delay.
 
I think I meant "ask around" in terms of performance, not to ask to find one.
 
The place I've used so far is eBay... there you can find 2nd hand commercial radios for dirt cheap. In fact, I recently acquired a few Moto XPR6550 for about 100 bucks a pop... I'll be selling all other non Vertex/Motorola radios I own after I am done swapping all the radios with 6550s.
 
G.

Your "sharing experiences" was what allowed to put it all together. Thanks!
 
Moral of the story is, even if you think you know, talking to someone who has a lot of experience will help a lot...  
 
 
G.
 
 

Although, not the most optimal location, close to the other options short of drilling. If you can keep the coil of the antenna above and away from metal you should be good. 
 
Here is some reading on placements of antennas.
Some more. Yes I know it is for a CB and a Jeep. It is just to help understand the type of directionality you get with the pattern.
 
http://www.mvaranet.org/uploads/2/7/2/2/27221859/1422988925.png

I didn't thought much of grounding antennas until I moved to my current house and needed every bit of range I could muster. Grounding the antenna made a significant reception difference, as in, it went from ~5 miles max to ~15 miles easy... grounding the antenna did lower the dB floor according to my spectrum analyzer, thus substantially improving reception range.
 
To do grounding I read a lot of advice from people who do commercial tower installations and the NEC guidelines, etc.
 
So, here is what worked for me:
 
I purchased two Times Microwave Arresters, both N female, both Low PIM (low Passive Inter-Modulation), and both are bolted to the metal mast that holds the antenna(s) and the mast (1.25" steel pipe) is grounded using two copper clamps and a 10AWG wire to the house ground rod electrical box.
 
The first arrester is placed right before the antenna, at the top of the mast. The second one is at the bottom of the mast. The short run between the antenna and the first arrester is a 4 foot LMR400 patch, coiled twice and both ends are silver plated connectors for low PIM. Then, from the first arrester (at the top) to the 2nd arrester at the bottom of the mast there is a 20 feet Heliax 1/2" cable run, both are N male ends and tri-metal low PIM connectors. The bottom arrester has a 90 degree elbow (silver plated) and another Heliax 1/2" 6 feet run, (both ends of this cable are also tri-metal low PIM) to the input of the "radio box" ... Inside the radio box I am using MILSPEC RG-214 patch cables with N male silver plated connectors for low PIM. The only connections that have any chrome plating are the antenna's SO239 and the Vertex Standard EVX-5300's mini-UHF connector.
 
As you can see, I ditched all the UHF connectors and my SWR no longer creeps over time due to connectors being exposed to the crap weather. It was a "Copernican turn" for me, as all I had before was 239 stuff... glad I moved away from those, and from chrome plating... which caused a host of problems with the massive 1400 Candelabra tower sitting less than 2 miles from my antenna mast...
 
All my radios are connected to a solar panel array and a 12VDC battery bank, thus not sharing anything electrical with the house, but the negative (ground) of the battery bank is connected to the same ground 10AWG wire the antenna mast is.
 
G.

Sorry Logan5, but your case is not typical. You either live in a very flat place, at the top of a hill, or atop a mount, or even atop a mountain, b/c using 5W UHF where I live (near Madison WI), with my antenna placed atop a 40 feet mast, using Heliax 1/2" feedline doesn't reach reliably more than 5 miles out to HT, and that is spotty at best... even when pushing 50W GMRS out using Vertex Standard EVX-5400 mobile, through the same 40 feet antenna, it barely reaches 10 miles to another EVX-5400 mobile using a vehicle mounted NMO antenna (no magmount crap)... but to HT?... Sorry, but not typical to get 10 miles out of 5W.
 
Using BTECH crap, TYT crap, or in general anything CCR crap, or anything that isn't commercial grade gear will result in disappointment. I've alredy been through the CCR road, and while they do have their uses, reliable comms at long range isn't one of them, and I am talking about all these cheapies with flashy screens and 10 million channels with fancy colored buttons and slick shapes... etc. In the end, my Vertex Standard EVX-5300 G7, with a single digit 8 segment LCD display and a total of 8 channels draws rings around all of these cheapies in terms of what matters: radio reception performance.
 
G.
 
 

Well, I wouldn't use ham grade gear as the standard to measure the CCRs up against either, when in reality most ham gear is also pretty subpar when compared to commercial or military grade gear. Receiver performance, in particular intermod rejection and selectivity is where most CCRs and ham gear tends to fall flat.
 
The receiver sensitivity is a meaningless figure without taking into account selectivity. The TM-V71a has 0.16 uV sensitivity @ 12 SINAD in VHF/ UHF, which beats the 0.18uV of the IC-7000, and the 0.25uV of the Vertex Standard EVX-5400... but suffers heavily from intermod. When the TM-V71a is tuned to VHF frequencies, the NOAA weather station sitting 2 1/2 miles from home breaks through randomly regardless of whatever frequency you have the radio tuned to. On the other hand, the EVX-5400 hooked to the same antenna, in the same frequency never hears the NOAA station. That is an example of poor receiver performance. The TM-V71a can barely hear anything beyond 10 miles due to the receiver being saturated by the nearby RF noise, but the EVX-5400 almost full quiets from 10 miles away when talking to home from the same 5W portable... The CCRs, in particular all the TYT brands, those will simply desense down to zero when connected to my base antenna so reception range goes to zero.
 
Now, perhaps If you live in a lower RF congested area then, perhaps, a CCR would be fine; but the again, owning a radio that only works in certain conditions is not a good radio to own IMO. If you need urban performance in crowded RF environments, then most of these Cheap Chinese Radios will disappoint.
 
With that said, cheapies CCRs have their uses. For example, the Baofeng BF-1801 (Clone of the TYT  MD-760) works great as a floor intercom radio... just don't expect that radio to make miracles in terms of range.
 
Considering a lot of the Kenwood/Icom/Motorola commercial grade radios are sold for quite a bargain on eBay, I really don't see any reason to own a subpar radio...
 
Buying cheap in radio gear is the surest way to buying twice.
 
G.
 
 
 

Sorry Logan5, but your case is not typical. You either live in a very flat place, at the top of a hill, or atop a mount, or even atop a mountain, b/c using 5W UHF where I live (near Madison WI), with my antenna placed atop a 40 feet mast, using Heliax 1/2" feedline doesn't reach reliably more than 5 miles out to HT, and that is spotty at best... even when pushing 50W GMRS out using Vertex Standard EVX-5400 mobile, through the same 40 feet antenna, it barely reaches 10 miles to another EVX-5400 mobile using a vehicle mounted NMO antenna (no magmount crap)... but to HT?... Sorry, but not typical to get 10 miles out of 5W.
 
Using BTECH crap, TYT crap, or in general anything CCR crap, or anything that isn't commercial grade gear will result in disappointment. I've alredy been through the CCR road, and while they do have their uses, reliable comms at long range isn't one of them, and I am talking about all these cheapies with flashy screens and 10 million channels with fancy colored buttons and slick shapes... etc. In the end, my Vertex Standard EVX-5300 G7, with a single digit 8 segment LCD display and a total of 8 channels draws rings around all of these cheapies in terms of what matters: radio reception performance.
 
G.
 
 

If you want to save some money, there are GMRS Certified radios available on the used market that are both a lot less expensive than the Midland products, and a lot better.  Search through this forum and you will find many recommendations.

Would be awesome if they moved the manufacturing back to the USA... but I won't hold my hopes very high...

Your "sharing experiences" was what allowed to put it all together. Thanks!
 
Moral of the story is, even if you think you know, talking to someone who has a lot of experience will help a lot...  
 
 
G.
 
 

Would be awesome if they moved the manufacturing back to the USA... but I won't hold my hopes very high...

Your "sharing experiences" was what allowed to put it all together. Thanks!
 
Moral of the story is, even if you think you know, talking to someone who has a lot of experience will help a lot...  
 
 
G.
 
 

LOL...  you got me.
 

That is a very nice thing to say. I appreciate it.. but you did all the work and figured everything out. I just shared some personal experience.
 
Btw... I had a great time talking with you through all of that. I am very glad it finally all came together.

G.... it was a joke. LoL
 
I could be wrong, but I think the only SMA antenna mount is on an HT.

I wish I would've known Marc Spaz before I started on GMRS, or anything radio, really... he has helped me tremendously go from barely 4 miles to well beyond 15 miles simplex mobile to base...
 
G.

I didn't thought much of grounding antennas until I moved to my current house and needed every bit of range I could muster. Grounding the antenna made a significant reception difference, as in, it went from ~5 miles max to ~15 miles easy... grounding the antenna did lower the dB floor according to my spectrum analyzer, thus substantially improving reception range.
 
To do grounding I read a lot of advice from people who do commercial tower installations and the NEC guidelines, etc.
 
So, here is what worked for me:
 
I purchased two Times Microwave Arresters, both N female, both Low PIM (low Passive Inter-Modulation), and both are bolted to the metal mast that holds the antenna(s) and the mast (1.25" steel pipe) is grounded using two copper clamps and a 10AWG wire to the house ground rod electrical box.
 
The first arrester is placed right before the antenna, at the top of the mast. The second one is at the bottom of the mast. The short run between the antenna and the first arrester is a 4 foot LMR400 patch, coiled twice and both ends are silver plated connectors for low PIM. Then, from the first arrester (at the top) to the 2nd arrester at the bottom of the mast there is a 20 feet Heliax 1/2" cable run, both are N male ends and tri-metal low PIM connectors. The bottom arrester has a 90 degree elbow (silver plated) and another Heliax 1/2" 6 feet run, (both ends of this cable are also tri-metal low PIM) to the input of the "radio box" ... Inside the radio box I am using MILSPEC RG-214 patch cables with N male silver plated connectors for low PIM. The only connections that have any chrome plating are the antenna's SO239 and the Vertex Standard EVX-5300's mini-UHF connector.
 
As you can see, I ditched all the UHF connectors and my SWR no longer creeps over time due to connectors being exposed to the crap weather. It was a "Copernican turn" for me, as all I had before was 239 stuff... glad I moved away from those, and from chrome plating... which caused a host of problems with the massive 1400 Candelabra tower sitting less than 2 miles from my antenna mast...
 
All my radios are connected to a solar panel array and a 12VDC battery bank, thus not sharing anything electrical with the house, but the negative (ground) of the battery bank is connected to the same ground 10AWG wire the antenna mast is.
 
G.

I think the biggest problem is, there are too many opinions AND most new users don't even know "what" they want to do.  For the most part, many new radio users don't know what tech is the correct tech for any intended purpose.  Until they get in and find out something they like and figure out how it will suit their needs, we wouldn't even know what advice to give.
 
I have tried to help, though.  I actually have a published article I wrote about the pros and cons of each common service, what they could potentially used for, and just a really brief overview of the science behind it.  It was focused around off-road communications, but applies to everything.  I can always share it here, but I haven't due to potential bickering. 

You're welcome
 
73
Greg
WRCZ387
Clearwater, FL

You could build a far better repeater from commercial gear... cheaper, and be type accepted too...  

You could build a far better repeater from commercial gear... cheaper, and be type accepted too...  

1/2 mile is about right with those Baofengs on UHF. Reaching further distance will require to use a better antenna placed at a height higher than 20 feet AGL. That would be the cheapest option IMO, if you want to increase range. Going with higher end walkies will probably increase the range too, and depending on conditions it might almost double the range, but that could end up being very costly... and in the end a better antenna placed higher is always the better route.
 
Going mobile (instead of walkie) will give you 10dB more power (x10 power) but range might not increase much, as the higher placed antenna will be a far better solution.
 
I don't think repeaters can be made dual duty due to the hardware involved in making one, you need two different repeaters to do Ham and GMRS.
 
 
G.
 
 
 

1/2 mile is about right with those Baofengs on UHF. Reaching further distance will require to use a better antenna placed at a height higher than 20 feet AGL. That would be the cheapest option IMO, if you want to increase range. Going with higher end walkies will probably increase the range too, and depending on conditions it might almost double the range, but that could end up being very costly... and in the end a better antenna placed higher is always the better route.
 
Going mobile (instead of walkie) will give you 10dB more power (x10 power) but range might not increase much, as the higher placed antenna will be a far better solution.
 
I don't think repeaters can be made dual duty due to the hardware involved in making one, you need two different repeaters to do Ham and GMRS.
 
 
G.