Extreme

Update FWIW.
 
I sent my TK-880 back to www.used-radios.com to verify firmware and install the correct V2.  Turnaround was 7 days total.  I got a call from the service manager and he got the tech to work it over and correct it.  Fired it up this afternoon and all seems well, buttons are correct for me, groups and channel programming are right, and there's no 'yyyyyyy' across the display.  Hopefully, it won't revert (it didn't do it the first time until power had been cycled multiple times).  They suspected corruption in the software/firmware or such.
 
I would likely mention here if I'd received poor or sub-par service from a vendor, so it's only fitting that I complement one with great service.  Some might say I paid a premium for a used radio but part of my rationale was the 90-day warranty they provide, and that it came complete with mic, power cable, and mounting bracket. 
Now I can add good service to that.  And thanks to all of you who helped diagnose the issue.  

If I'm working simplex, I'll usually say something like "WRAF213, on 675" for the main channels, or "WRAF213, on channel 1" for the interstitials. It's a good idea to say which channel you're on so folks using scan will be able to find your transmission easily.
 
On repeaters, I'll include the repeater name/tone when calling someone, otherwise I just drop in my callsign or even just the suffix. If I needed to hear a monologue when someone hops on a repeater, I'd just go back to the WIN System.
 
I hang out on channel 1 a fair bit, but only pipe up to help people who can't get radios talking together; SDR instantly tells me their channel settings, and I only talk to the parents/adults. I scare the crap outta all the kids in a 5 mile radius whenever I get on that channel, though. It's much more fun from hilltops.

I am not sure I would agree with that. The video mentions that costs ranged from $250 to $600 per family. For significantly less, they could have organized a group purchase of used, commercial quality, equipment. Of course, that would require someone, or a small group, to buy, program and test and distribute the radios. This approach also gives the end-user a plug-and-play solution, but with better quality equipment.  BTW, that is exactly what we have done in our local CERT effort and we now have over 50 participants using mostly Motorola equipment.
 
Also, while it won't make a huge difference, using wide-band would also improve their audio quality and range.

FTDI programming cable for Chirp.
 
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=kenwood+tk880+programming+cable&_ssn=bluemax49ers&_armrs=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=btech+gmrs1programming+cable&_sacat=0
 
How to with keypad:
 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=btech+gmrs-v1+programming

Yes, just ignore the warning about out of range, radio will work. I do not have sophisticated equipment, just a simple power meter, and I do not see any difference in power between ham band and GMRS band. Listening to the signal on another radio also do not show anything unusual.
Talk Around - I do not use it, I just programmed simplex frequencies with different PL/DPL codes. Pretty much all of my use is on simplex, anyway.

You hit on some very good points.  I always say each band/service has its purpose.  If I am talking close proximity while Oscar Mike and don't need/want my signal circling the globe, UHF is perfect.  VHF can be good for local.  Around here I get between 9 and 15 miles on simplex with just 5 watts on 2m.  I get about 35 miles on 10m and 100 watts.  Then when I need state/regional... 60m or 75m NVIS.  Around the country and/or global, 20m and 40m.  That is the very reason I tell people that Amateur Radio is the best all-around solution.  We have an option for every type of comms needed.
 
I mostly use CB and GMRS for comms compatibility with friends who are not Hams.  I helped get my friends GMRS and CB stuff setup. I personally have a Galaxy DX 959 and a 1/4 wave steel whip.  We all spent time grounding all the body panels, antenna mounts, etc., to get max performance.  I can talk 8+ miles on AM almost no matter what.  On SSB I am talking 16+ miles reliably... 22-24 miles regularly (squelch wide open and 21 or 22 signal report).
 
Originally, we were comparing CB and GMRS.  Bringing Amateur Radio into the mix, I fully agree with you, 40m is outstanding for long range comms.  I was on 40m while driving around in my Jeep last night.  There was a contest going on and I could here people from Virginia, as well as coast to coast.  I even talked to a guy in Berlin (DK7YY) while driving around.  Some of the folks in Cali where kind of quiet, though.
 
Going back to OP's statement about GMRS being better for trail riding... I think its all opinion based.  While I like the range of CB better, I like the audio quality of UHF FM and extremely low height of GMRS antennas.  I'm less likely to snap an antenna.
 
Anyway, I don't really believe in better or best.  I just believe in the right tool for the job.  That is why, in my Jeep, I can work 80m/75m, 60m, 40m, 20m, 11m, 10m, 6m, 2m, 70cm, and GMRS.  No matter what needs to happen, I got it covered.  ;-)

My major concern with the idea of using a bulkhead connector on the outside is it would be nearly impossible to weatherproof adequately.

Not at all.. I don't even remember who might have said that, and it certainly didn't bother me - I'd pretty much decided on the used-radios route after learning here I could do better than Midland stuff.  Learned more about GMRS here than I thought there was to know.

OK, done Whining.
 
Please, before you spend a dime on equipment, read the reviews on equipment in other parts of this forum.
 
It will save you money.

I might have mentioned that you paid a premium, but I didn't mean that as a bad thing. You got value for the premium you paid, for exactly the reasons you state here.

Update FWIW.
 
I sent my TK-880 back to www.used-radios.com to verify firmware and install the correct V2.  Turnaround was 7 days total.  I got a call from the service manager and he got the tech to work it over and correct it.  Fired it up this afternoon and all seems well, buttons are correct for me, groups and channel programming are right, and there's no 'yyyyyyy' across the display.  Hopefully, it won't revert (it didn't do it the first time until power had been cycled multiple times).  They suspected corruption in the software/firmware or such.
 
I would likely mention here if I'd received poor or sub-par service from a vendor, so it's only fitting that I complement one with great service.  Some might say I paid a premium for a used radio but part of my rationale was the 90-day warranty they provide, and that it came complete with mic, power cable, and mounting bracket. 
Now I can add good service to that.  And thanks to all of you who helped diagnose the issue.  

The answer to your first question is no. You do not need to set PL on receive to listen. PL is used where there may be more than one station transmitting on a frequency. Through the use of PL you can select which of those multiple station you listen to. This is common on GMRS, especially with repeaters. However, unlike GMRS where a large number of people use a small number of repeater frequencies, and therefore have learned how to share them, like by using PL, HAM repeaters are coordinated so there is almost never more than one repeater transmitting on a frequency, so no need for PL to "tune out" another station.
 
To state it a bit differently: If you did set PL for a HAM repeater and did it right, you'd never know. If you did it wrong, you'd never hear anything. So, there is no point in setting it at all 

I think one cannot base one’s opinion of GMRS on repeater use. I drive around with my mobile radio set to scan. After more than a year, I’ve discovered different areas where GMRS/FRS are used daily.
 
Bubble pack radios have low power, which allows more people to use the limited channels with limited interference, if they are separated by some distance. The more popular channels in my area are 1, 7, 15, 20, 22. I don’t understand why people prefer those channels. As I drive around, I’ll hear conversations on the same channels, separated only by distance.
 
Channel 18 is not used much around here because there is a GMRS repeater that covers the entire county. The repeater will routinely step on any conversations using channel 18. I do hear the occasional chat on 18 simplex when the repeater is silent.
 
In short, I think GMRS is popular. Much of it is unlicensed. Even among the licensed, I don’t think many are aware of or understand how to use repeaters. After all, you can’t find bubble pack radios that are repeater capable. Most of us licensed, regulars are buying ham equipment to access repeaters, with the exception of mobile radios that come repeater capable.
 
I believe without evidence that there are many more households with GMRS/FRS radios stashed away in drawers. Some are ready to use for the occasional outdoor or family activity. Others are only for emergencies. I think the vast majority are for simplex use.
 
AND
 
FRS is Family Radio Service, which is how most people use GMRS on bubble pack HTs.
 
GMRS is General Mobile Radio Service, emphasis on Mobile.
 
I don’t think most users are buying mobile radios. There is a world of difference between a 2 W HT and a 50 W mobile. In that aspect I would agree that GMRS is less popular. Fewer people are taking advantage of the higher power options and the availability of repeaters on GMRS.
 
 
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Update FWIW.
 
I sent my TK-880 back to www.used-radios.com to verify firmware and install the correct V2.  Turnaround was 7 days total.  I got a call from the service manager and he got the tech to work it over and correct it.  Fired it up this afternoon and all seems well, buttons are correct for me, groups and channel programming are right, and there's no 'yyyyyyy' across the display.  Hopefully, it won't revert (it didn't do it the first time until power had been cycled multiple times).  They suspected corruption in the software/firmware or such.
 
I would likely mention here if I'd received poor or sub-par service from a vendor, so it's only fitting that I complement one with great service.  Some might say I paid a premium for a used radio but part of my rationale was the 90-day warranty they provide, and that it came complete with mic, power cable, and mounting bracket. 
Now I can add good service to that.  And thanks to all of you who helped diagnose the issue.  

They're far, far better radios than anything Midland or BTECH sell, sold, or will sell for the foreseeable future. WRAK968 is about right as far as pricing...880s are a commodity, nothing more.

I want to thank all you guys with great information and patience for us new guys.
I wouldn't have thought twice about using some of these adapters and connectors.
I'm all about the gidgits/gadgets, erector set type of building stuff.
One wouldn't think that they have that much loss by looking at them.
It makes me feel a lot better that this project will have a better chance of working.
Thanks again.

What material is the kayak made out of, fiberglass or plastic? If so, think of it as a radome and don't worry.  In any case, you can always run a test by supporting the kayak on two sawhorses, have someone get under it with an HT and see how far away you can work them. Then, have them try the same test standing outside the kayak (with the HT at the same height).

Forget all of that bulkhead connector stuff.  That is a problem waiting to happen.  If the cab ever has to come off, just replace the whole mount if needed. That would be cheaper than all of the added connectors for that bulkhead setup, and those connectors ARE lossy.
 
Here's another better idea... just drill a hole in the top center of the cab roof, and mount the antenna there.  If the cab ever needs to come off, the antenna comes with it.  You will also get better results with the antenna on the roof than you would with it on the rack due to a more evenly distributed ground plane around the base of the antenna.

Congrats!

Thanks berkinet.
Yes I did mean PL-259 connector. Sorry, typing to fast for my brain.
So, looking at your table, at 15 ft of RG-58 my loss should be 1.68 db. Which sounds very acceptable.
I guess the key for this application is, keep line as short as possible and minimize/eliminate connectors.
Thanks again.

Yes. Put very simply, no antenna has any gain as they are passive devices, they simply radiate. True gain requires amplification. What is called gain in an antenna is really apparent gain. That is, the the strength of the received signal, either at or from the remote radio is compared to the signal received using an hypothetical lossless antenna that radiates or receives signals equal from all directions - above, below and from the sides.  If an antenna's design favors signals transmitted or received from some particular direction, or directions, then at the same time it is reducing the signal transmitted or received from some other direction.  The result of changing the radiation/reception pattern results in signals from/to some direction(s) being stronger than from others. Thus the apparent gain.   Your doughnut radiation pattern favors signals from/to the sides and reduces signals sent/received vertical.  
 
It is a little bit like adding a lens to a lamp. A bare bulb (theoretically) radiates light in all directions. But, by placing a reflector behind the bulb and a lens in from of the bulb to direct the light, you will have much more brightness in the direction the lens faces, and much less light behind the reflector. But, the actual light output from the bulb remains unchanged.  In fact, Yagi design directional antennas use elements with those exact names: directors and reflectors.

Yes, the mic can control all of those and more, the down side is you need to have a "function" button. Now if you get the kit from Kenwood, the function button could be a foot petal, if not it is a button on the face of the radio (A/B/C/D) Thus it isn't really handy to use the mic for those functions. It is handy if, lets say a repeater has selective calling, you can set A to function, then use 0-9 on the keypad of the mic to set up your auto-dial. Basically it allows you to add more functions to the radio with only having 4 buttons on the face plate.
 
For my set-up, I programed the buttons as follows:
Scan: Scan
Mon:  Monitor
Vol:    Volume up/down
Group: Ch up/down
A:       OST [for changing between 15 PL/DPL tones]
B:       Memory (RCL) for paging a particular radio or group using DTMF
C/D:   Group up/down [switches between my home repeater, all repeater channels, and simplex frequencies]
Foot: N/a [i don't have one]

I find this set-up works for my needs, your needs may be different. For instance you may not use radio paging when looking for a particular user or group so you may change "B" to something like Scan add/del. Perhaps you dont need the MON button so you may set that to key lock. Its completely customisable.

That antenna along with many others on the market, reminds me of something I heard about fishing lures: they're designed not so much to catch fish, but to catch fishermen.
 
Generally speaking, the shorter the antenna and the wider its bandwidth, the less gain it has. A better way to state it is the more loss it has.

I actually run both on my F150. The only benefit of the 4503 is size. It works well on my local trunking systems but no antenna will work there. For GMRS its ok when on some repeaters, but simplex is junk. I since have put the 1/4 wave back on my GMRS mobile and am very happy with it. 

Alan,
 
Just an FYI.  I just went through exactly what you're doing.  I ended up with a Kenwood TK-880-1 V2 @ 25w from used-radios.  You can do some searching on this forum for the benefits (or not) of 40w over 25 (draws 12A vs 8A on TX, is 1" deeper).  I'm still considering the 880H for my pickup with more room to mount and dual battery reserve (not that I intend to TX from the SxS for long w/o it running).  Installed mine in a 2019 Yamaha Wolverine X4.  I think I'm going to like it.  Got a couple HT as well to hand out to family when on the trail.
 
Lots of help here and I've covered a lot of the questions you might have. You can search my posts for the answers I got on the topic.  Or chime in with me and I'll do what I can.