coryb27
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Posts posted by coryb27
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"A repeater that is beneficial to the end user" can be quite limited in reach, if it covers a small, user-dense, area with no cellphone coverage, though. Low-altitude, low-power, and transportable systems can be extremely valuable. You just can't pretend you're going to blanket a whole ZIP code with two potatofengs. Understanding and evaluating your requirements is the first step in speccing out any system, be it radio, computer, or chemical plant, for that matter. Frankly, festivals and such are probably 30% of my use case, all of which can be covered by a truck mounted repeater without much trouble. (It helps that the fairgrounds slope away from the parking area, in my case - but again, understanding and evaluating requirements.)
That's not a mobile repeater in that pic, its a HAM operating HF. As far as a mobile repeater it really is a waste of time. I have done this already and it was a total disappointment.. Unless your car is at a substantial height advantage you will not have any better coverage then simplex. Again you can and will try to explain or reason away my logic without listening to what I and others have been trying to tell you. I have tried the mobile repeater, the setup was a 50W Motorola SLR 5700 with a 4 cavity BP/BR duplexer connected to a 5.5dB gain antenna on the top of my truck. After testing for about month I realized it had no practical use and only offered slightly more range than simplex, best part I ended up needing a jump after a day at the fair. Mind you this was a $2400 repeater, $800 duplexer with an antenna that was tuned using an Anritsu S331D. I promise I nor anybody on this site will try to steer you wrong, I hold a Commercial, Amateur and GMRS license, own and operate several large repeaters and have all the gear for building, testing and maintaining these kinds of systems.
- ZGPilot1955, berkinet, shawnvanhorn and 5 others
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8
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Don't get discourage by the lack of users in your area rather embrace the lack of and if no repeater is available in your area install one. I have learned if you build it they will come. Start a club or group, put up a web page, start a Facebook group for your area etc.. You will be surprised how quickly like minded people will get licensed to talk with others that share the same interests.
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I use TK880's for mobile units, mostly because the MOL software is a pain to get (And at times requires an out of date OS and a RIB depending on how old the radio is)
Kenwood TK880's come in 25 and 50 watt models and the software is easy to get at a low price. The software also can be run on windows 10, and the cable is simple as well (No complicated RIB or anything) I've gotten all three 880's for less than $50, though one or two of them needed some cleaning. To reduce the number of programs I use, I ordered the 380 series portables which use the same software as the 880 mobiles. The only thing I dont like is that you can only store 10 "Tones" for CTCSS/DCS that you can select. I have the travel tone set in there and a few other codes for use when I travel. Outside of that the radios work really nice.
For sure Motorola On Line is a PITA, I dont know of anybody that would disagree. The equipment I spoke of needs no RIB and the stock USB cable does not require a driver. The Kenwoods are a great option but lack the features I wanted like the handheld control head, Bluetooth and WiFi programing. If i want to update my trucks programing I just leave the radio on and access it from my desktop. Again its all personal preference, its always nice to have options!
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199 ft tower on high ground.
WRCW870
Been around since the 70's. I just found it. The only thing I knew about was CB (11 meter). Lots of other people don't know either.
Business use only as a backup to AT&T. So that would be six days a year. For a total of maybe 120 minutes of air time.
GMRS can not be used for business, not even as a backup to AT&T. The FCC will be happy to licences you for your business under the part 90 industrial pool, GMRS is for personal and family use.
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Not sure what your advertising, GMRS has been around since the 70's, It can not be used for business if you where implying that. The local storm chasers will get some great use out of it, and you can always start a club or local group. As you can see by the web address in my signature we have a group with over 50 users.
Are you installing your repeater on a high enough tower to provide an effective area for storm chasers?
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Thank you !! That was my next question is what kind of other radios do
You guys recommend?
Motorola gear is a pain to get programming software for but not impossible. I can take a week or longer to navigate Motorola's process but in the end you will have legal software and you can get the entitlement for wideband operation for free after some quick online training. I use Motorola for the options alone, in the truck I run handheld control heads and a long range Bluetooth speaker mic so I can use the trucks radio well in restaurants our friends houses. The same mic is also on my base paired with a desktop mic, its nice being able to go anywhere in the house and just carry a small mic that allows the use of the base. This gear is a little pricey but can be found used on ebay reasonable, its all comes down to personal preference.
Bluetooth Mic that can be attached to most of the newer Motorola XPR radios including portables.
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/handmic.jpg
This is the handheld control head, it is also the speaker and mic, 4 years old an not a single issue.
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/truck1.jpg
Radio Head unit is installed under the back seat.
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/truck2.jpg
The control head cable comes thru the map pocket allowing it to tuck away nicely out of sight.
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/truck4.jpg
Simple 1/4 wave gives great performance, i am able to hit repeaters 30 miles away and simplex 10 miles easy in the freeway.
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/truck3.jpg
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Want to put a gmrs radio in my semi and have been thinking of putting the midland mxt400 in it but I am open to any all other radio recommendations
I would stay away from this radio, it has many issues and will not provide great performance as it is narrow band and can not do split PL / DPL. Its short comings have been discussed in the Equipment section of this site. Find a nice Kenwood TK-880 if you don't mind used otherwise ICOM and Motorola both make great part 90 Business radios both new and used that will preform nicely on GMRS. I run the Motorola XPR series and love the full display, 1000 channel capacity, unlimited talk groups, scan lists, long range bluetooth microphones etc...
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I did not see anything about the Rino being able to use a repeater but i was not looking vary hard. I think the Rino has a great feature set for its intended market and for the right group or setting.
I don't know of anybody into radio that likes Rodger Beeps or listening to Morse ID'er tones unless its CW on HAM.
As far as MDC I can't explain it any better then it has been, enjoy this great explanation free from Wikipedia!
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- revclstoner and marcspaz
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2
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Wow Corey, are you always so GRUMPY?
I'm not grumpy at all, in fact i am a rather cheerful guy
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Corey, an excellent point! In my wishlist going forward for HTs, I want them to transmit their callsign in a burst of fast Morse when you key up… but also include morse-decoding hardware and a minimal "who's talking now" screen. It should be trivial to integrate with hardware incorporating Roger beeps, but provide a lot more information.
(It's part of my concept for a new car satnav; the Roger beep at the end of the transmission includes GPS coordinates in some other easily-decoded fashion. PSK or ASCII might be more efficient, but Morse has such a good heritage…)
Why do they strip PL during IDing? That seems seriously counterproductive…
As for most people not understanding Morse, anyone keying up frequently, like one might do while jamming a repeater, would tend these days to get recorded, and said recordings fed into one of the many cheap / free smartphone Morse decoders.
As far as location its being done but as far as I know does not work on repeaters. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/533999
If you keyed up on my system with some rapid morse code every transmission I would give you the boot, I have no tolerance for Rodger beeps, fleet sync, etc. Lots of people use MDC to send unit numbers, around here we send the last 3 numbers of our gmrs call. Some groups send assigned unit numbers etc.. If you set your radio to decode MDC its silent and just displays it on the radio.
PL is stripped so the users don't have to hear it. Commercial repeaters ID every 15 min. Can you imagine having to hear that for 8 hours a day.
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If you program a Baofeng UV-5R to GMRS you need a GMRS licence. I see you understand that the radio is indeed a HAM radio and by the part 95 rules that your GMRS licence is authorized forbids the use of such equipment on GMRS. I won't get into all the details but here is the simple and best way I know how to explain this. Since no test or radio knowledge is required to get a GMRS licence its operating rules require certified transmitters to maintain the integrity of the service. GMRS is located within a tiny sliver of the part 90 commercial radio service used by business, ambulance services, fire depts, and well you get the picture. By using non certified low quality transmitters you risk causing harmful interference to other licensed services, if caught you will be held accountable. I am not here to tell you what you can and can't do but I hope you take something away from my ramblings because in the end the choice is yours.
- Elkhunter521, n4gix and marcspaz
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Ok so here is two more issues to think about. First most people dont know Morse code, and second most repeaters strip the PL / DPL during ID so unless you are operating open squelch you will never hear it anyway.
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Although there is no ID requirement for beginning transmissions for either amateur radio or GMRS, most of us need to do this so others will know who is on the frequency when we first key up. (It is almost a trick question which we have had for decades on the amateur radio exams).
The repeater needs to ID via voice or morse ID except:
95.1751
© Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:
(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and,
(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.
Which could be interpreted that unless the repeater is exclusively used by the individual or family group (who ID's accordingly), it would need to ID via voice or Morse. But it could it be interpreted differently, if you broaden "operating under authority" to mean anyone who gets permission from the owner?
In my area of SW Wisconsin, there are several GMRS repeaters that do not ID at any time. We have one on Channel 21 (700) that is very strong and I was able to track down by a former license holder who I have heard re-purposed an antenna and feedline at a grain storage elevator with a decent antenna height. The other repeater on Channel 17 (600) appears to use different PL tones for input and output. I have never heard anyone else on either repeater.
I live in SW Wisconsin myself (Racine) I own or co operate several machines, 725, 700, 700, 550, 575, 675. Ingleside IL, New Berlin, Madison, Baraboo, Rhinelander and Union Grove. As far as operating under authority, this would imply a GMRS licence under authority of the issuing agency, or plainly the FCC. As such operators are required to ID by Rule of the issued licence. This term is used extensively by the FCC, you can find the definition on there site. I don't set an id on my systems for the simple reason if somebody gets on a repeater and starts breaking rules and jamming it up the last persons ID I want being broadcast is mine. Unless I am forced to by rule change I will never set and ID for this reason. Last reason is simple, its annoying to users on other repeaters sharing the channel to have some ID heterodyning during a conversation.
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Why does every new license holder want to setup a repeater? I would like to shed a little light on some of the important things to consider if you recently got your GMRS license and now want your own repeater.
First thing to consider, are there any open well placed repeaters in your area that you are able to use? I can assure you most repeater owners want people to use there repeater. Owning several repeaters I can assure you all are welcome and encouraged to use my machines.
Do you have access to a location to host your repeater? If your answer is your garage roof you should reconsider. Your garage roof will give you about the same coverage as simplex. Unless you’re on top of a mountain and all your users are at the bottom you will never be happy with this setup.
GMRS is not as popular as one would like to think, unless your repeater covers 20 miles or more you may find you only have 1 or 2 users in the area. Unless you already have a group of friends together you may want to consider this before spending money on a decent well positioned site to install your repeater.
So you found a nice high site and the price is right, all you need to do is get the repeater installed, sounds simple right? Some thigs to consider first and foremost are the costs because they can add up quickly. Are you on a commercial tower that requires a license and bonded climber? If so this could be by far your largest expense depending on your area. I have spent $600 to $1200 on a climber; I have had quotes as high as $2500 depending on the amount of work and heights involved. Keep in mind commercial sites require certified mounts, hard line cable, cable clamps, engineered grounding solutions and commercial grade antennas. No tower owner is going to let you install a comet antenna and 200’ of braided shield coax.
This brings me to my next point, the antenna. Because of the costs involved with climbers you will want to expend your budget on the antenna. Remember a $2000 repeater on a $200 antenna is going to work about as good as a $200 repeater. Whereas a $200 repeater on a $2000 antenna is going to work like a $2000 repeater. On my first repeater I was gifted use of a 150’ tower, I installed a DB-420 on the top and 160’ of 7/8 hardline. Total cost of equipment for the antenna install was $2500, with the climbers labor coming in at an additional $800. This left me with enough to purchase an old Motorola R100 repeater running at 25W. To my surprise it had 30 miles of coverage, all due to the cash spent on the antenna and waiting for a decent spot.
Things happen, more so if you have an antenna 200’ in the air with a conductive cable connected to sensitive electronics. Antenna issues, feedline issues, repeater issues all cost money and I promise at some point you will have issues that need repair and require your money!
It is my opinion that the GMRS community does not need another 2 to 5 miles repeater as it just becomes background noise. What use is a public listed repeater if somebody in a mobile can’t use it 5 miles away while moving or the portable coverage is only a mile? If after reading this you are still going to build a repeater for your garage more power to you, just don’t expect 20 people to show up if it only reaches a mile.
As the owner of several GMRS and Commercial repeaters I can attest to the amount of money and effort go into my repeaters. I have only touched on the basics, if you add in any kind of testing services, duplexer tuning, addition of a combiner channel to an existing tower system, RF engineering, rent and insurance your costs can sky rocket. The best advice I can give any new licensee is to try and use the available systems in the area. Take the time to learn a little about what you’re doing and to assess the usability of the service before investing in a repeater for the sole reason of saying you own one.
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I have not had or seen anybody have good luck running a dual band ham antenna on GMRS, In my personal experience the trusty NMO UHF 1/4 wave has given me the best performance for repeaters and hwy simplex use and most will cover 440 to 480. No issue with repeaters 30 miles away and regularly see 10 miles simplex on the hwy.
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As soon as I see VFO its chances of having a valid part 90 spec go out the window.
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little overkill but I like it. nice job.
how do you find the right angle connectors hold up to power? I have never liked using them.
I have not had any issues with Comscope, I can't say that for RFS, several have shorted internally.
That cable job was to cure some issues with a paging transmitter next to me getting into the amp, it did solve the issue. I am sure i could have used something smaller but i had a ton of 1/2 on hand.
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I don't know of anybody that champions the use, of Part 97 radios on GMRS. I have however championed the use, of Part 90 radios on GMRS as that service has as strong or stronger specs. Recent changes to the FCC wording state an operator my operate equipment that is certified in another service, part 97 equipment is not certified. Furthermore the FCC has commented about the use of HAM radios on GMRS and will enforce action if one is caught. You can read more below, I am sure others on this site will agree that non certified equipment has no place on GMRS.
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Great follow up! I was hoping this topic would generate some conversation. I personally don't own any repeaters that are less then full duty cycle and I dont use time out timers on the repeaters. We link several machines together using VOIP and at times the conversations can get long winded with many users engaging I have seen them go for 45 min or longer. In the beginning we set the TOT for 2 min and had different machines resetting at different times causing lots of missed conversations etc. After a year of that we went to a system wide TOT of 5 min and that's been working out great as all the machines will reset at once. As far as the repeaters, we only use Motorola MTR2000's of the 100 watt configuration. At full power these machines are designed for 100% duty cycle, so at our allowed 50 watts they are hardly breaking a sweat.
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That's bad news and a serious oversight on my end. I can't believe I missed that. Midland micromobile came up in the top 5 recommended GMRS radios is a bunch of online reviews.
Is there any options other than selling this radios and buying a pair of widebands?
Not really, you can fight Midland to take them back as others have.
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Hello, I am in a bit of a pickle today. I am getting what I believe to be sub-par simplex performance with my new GMRS mobile radios. Though, I may just be at the limit of the service. I am hoping someone may have a recommendation or some information for me.
I have 2 trucks that I put Midland MXT400's in. I am using the Midland 6 DB gain antenna. Both antenna's are hard mounted to the windshield cowl, about 8 inches forward of the windshield and vertical. The antenna base on one truck is 60 inches off the ground and the other antenna base is 54 inches off the ground.
I have a UHF SWR/Watt meter. Both vehicles are reading about 1.1:1-1.2:1 and there is zero reflective energy on either setup.
With both radios, I can successfully talk to repeaters 20+ miles away and they sound great. On simplex, in as straight of a line as I can get on any road around here, I can only talk about 2.5 miles with 5 watts scale (3.7 measured). When I bump the power to the 40 watts scale (35 measured), I don't pick up any more than 25 to 30 yards of more range.
I tried buying a couple of magnetic mount antenna bases and put both antenna's in the center of each vehicles roof and gain zero performance. I also saw about the same forward and ref energy reading as well as SWR.
I am a HAM and on 440 (70cm), on a 5 watt hand held, I am getting about 7 miles on a 5 DB gain antenna. With my 2m/440 setup in my car, I get about 17 miles on 440 simplex with 35 watts. I am having a hard time believing that the small jump from 440's to 460's is crippling my simplex performance. Especially since I am able to use repeaters 20+ miles away.
Any suggestions? Is this what I should expect out of this part of the UHF band or am I overlooking something? I feel like I am probably making a simple mistake and I am just missing it.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Marc
The MXT400 is narrow band and overall is not a great performer. I get 10 solid miles simplex on the highway using a Motorola XPR 5550 and a 1/4 wave thru mounted in the roof of a 2015 GMC pickup. The MTX400 and others in the lineup have been discussed in the equipment review section of this site.
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/truck3.jpg
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2 additions
1/4" and 3/8" superflex
1/4 losses are 2.2dB/100' @150Mc and 4.0 @450Mc
3/8 losses are 1.5dB/100' @150Mc and 2.65 @450Mc
these are great for making jumpers w/o the leakage of braided cables.
will post some new pic when I get all the cables and connectors together
I never read to the bottom of this thread, just wanted to share my 1/2" Heliax plumbing job on this part 90 DMR repeater
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/jumpers.jpg
- shawnvanhorn, Hans, JohnE and 1 other
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4
Garmin Rino and Friends
in General Discussion
Posted
Motorola, Icom, Kenwood all make new radios that can be set to wideband. Motorola uses Entitlement keys, Icom can be set in the options, Kenwood I think requires a key.