Question: Paid Subscription Repeaters?

[wilbilt62]

I see many repeaters listed stating they require a paid subscription.

I have questions about this. All licensed GMRS users may transmit on any authorized GMRS frequency using any available tone, providing they are not breaking any FCC regulations.

I understand that setting up a repeater requires time and resources (i.e., $$$$), but anyone setting up a GMRS repeater is essentially putting it out in the public domain. Tones are not some super-secret thing.

How is charging people money to use public frequencies not illegal?

 

[UncleYoda]

Related topic

[wilbilt62]

19 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Related topic

Thanks for that.

It seems that some think it is OK to charge money to transmit on public frequencies and others don't.

[WRUE951]

yup, there a thousands of repeaters set up this way,  And yes, they are making money, else they would not invest in dozens of repeaters under one license..  More and more get added each week

[WSHH887]

For the experts, is it even in accordance with FCC to have a commercially operated repeater?

[OffRoaderX]

If that makes you sad, you should set up your own repeater so everyone can use it for free and teach them all a lesson.

[OffRoaderX]

Just now, WSHH887 said:

For the experts, is it even in accordance with FCC to have a commercially operated repeater?

Charging for its use does not make it "commercially operated".. 

But, to (i think) answer your and the OP's question, it does not break any rules to charge for the repeater as long as its not "for profit" ..

[WRYZ926]

1 hour ago, wilbilt62 said:

I see many repeaters listed stating they require a paid subscription.

I have questions about this. All licensed GMRS users may transmit on any authorized GMRS frequency using any available tone, providing they are not breaking any FCC regulations.

I understand that setting up a repeater requires time and resources (i.e., $$$$), but anyone setting up a GMRS repeater is essentially putting it out in the public domain. Tones are not some super-secret thing.

How is charging people money to use public frequencies not illegal?

 

One can't charge money or prevent others from using public frequencies. What repeater owners can do is control who uses their repeaters since the repeater owners pay for the repeaters and associated maintenance costs. And repeaters are private property.

It is common curtesy to join the local club that owns the area amateur repeater by paying dues it you plan on using it often. While joining and paying dues are not mandatory, most will willingly do so to help with repeater maintenance.

Setting up good repeaters is not cheap, and proper maintenance isn't cheap either.

While I don't agree with charging for repeater use,  paying a minimal membership due that goes towards repeater maintenance is fine.

[WSHH887]

3 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Charging for its use does not make it "commercially operated".. 

But, to (i think) answer your and the OP's question, it does not break any rules to charge for the repeater as long as its not "for profit" ..

So if it's "not for profit" do they have do the appropriate tax paperwork?

[OffRoaderX]

7 minutes ago, WSHH887 said:

So if it's "not for profit" do they have do the appropriate tax paperwork?

I dont know man, I am not such a petty control freak that i would care about something like that..
jeezus.. go outside and touch some grass.

[WRUE951]

46 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Charging for its use does not make it "commercially operated".. 

But, to (i think) answer your and the OP's question, it does not break any rules to charge for the repeater as long as its not "for profit" ..

No profit, they just spend that to add more repeaters.. It's so easy on GMRS, evan a cave man can do it..   

[WSHH887]

44 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

I dont know man, I am not such a petty control freak that i would care about something like that..
jeezus.. go outside and touch some grass.

I have a better use for grass. 

[WRKC935]

39 minutes ago, WSHH887 said:

So if it's "not for profit" do they have do the appropriate tax paperwork?

You can do a not for profit and not be a registered 50x. 

The 'trick' is that anything you take in you keep record of.  You put those funds in a specific account that's only for repeater maintenance and you don't pull / spend that money for anything outside of that.  If you do that, and it gets questioned.  You have records of the incoming and outgoing money and it's a mute point. 

If you are just dropping the money in your personal account or similar and spending money out of that account then you REALLY need to be careful about tracking what's coming in and what's going out.  And if you aren't doing any of that, then if it's looked at, they will consider it for profit.

But the first thing that would have to happen is someone get mad and file a complaint on you / the repeater owner.

Now this does happen when someone gets told to get off a private / pay to play repeater.  The user gets his feelings hurt and calls the FCC to inform on the repeater owner.  Now, is that gonna bring the FCC to their door.  Who knows.  At this point, the FCC has said that they will ONLY respond to INTERFERENCE related complaints.  Of course, this ain't that.  So again, who knows.

 

But is it legal to 'charge' for access to a repeater?  And the answer is, it depends on what you are charging for.  IF it's 'CLUB DUES' then yes 100%.  If it's actual access and there is no club, then all the stuff above applies, records and such. And to have a 50x you about need a club or organization to have that tax status.  Personally I just don't bother with fee's or due's because it's a pain in the ass.  Trying to NOT piss off people while running a wide area coverage repeater is not worth my time.  If someone hands me some money to support the repeater, I put it towards the electric bill, or tools, or other stuff for the repeater.  And honestly, I have has the repeater on since 2021 or so, and the grant total of donated money has been 90 bucks. So again, not worth the hassle.

 

 

[TDM827]

17 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

Charging for its use does not make it "commercially operated".. 

But, to (i think) answer your and the OP's question, it does not break any rules to charge for the repeater as long as its not "for profit" ..

OffRoaderX is correct and Like others said, charging for repeater access or a club fee is not illegal. Making it a commercial venture and profiting from it is illegal. If a person properly sets up a non-profits and "plows" back any potential profit and keeps the rest for maintenance, administration, upkeep, more repeaters etc... its not hard to do. 

As mentioned, be a pillar of the GRMS community, spend the thousands of dollars to set up a high quality public use repeater, hundreds to thousands a month on tower fees, set up good back up power, and put up with all the BS that goes with repeater ownership. Do you think you your thoughts on charging for access to a repeater might change a bit? Perhaps.  

[OffRoaderX]

Just now, TDM827 said:

Making it a commercial venture and profiting from it is illegal

CORRECTION: Not "illegal", but a violation of FCC rules.. 

[TDM827]

1 minute ago, OffRoaderX said:

CORRECTION: Not "illegal", but a violation of FCC rules.. 

Yup, I stand corrected. FCC likes to enforce "rule." Or at least they say they do. LOL

[kirk5056]

Yes, anyone licensed can transmit on any GMRS channel.  BUT, you can not use MY radio without MY permission.  That repeater is MY radio!

[OffRoaderX]

40 minutes ago, TDM827 said:

FCC likes to enforce "rule."

Correction: Based on the FCCs "enforcement" record over the last 15 years for H.A.M.s radios, GMRS, and CB radio, they apparently do NOT like to enforce their rules.

[wilbilt62]

37 minutes ago, kirk5056 said:

Yes, anyone licensed can transmit on any GMRS channel.  BUT, you can not use MY radio without MY permission.  That repeater is MY radio!

Sure. But as a licensed GMRS user, I can transmit on any public GMRS frequency, using any public tone, without breaking any rules or laws.

Legally, what can you do about it?

[OffRoaderX]

1 minute ago, wilbilt62 said:

Legally, what can you do about it?

They can complain to the FCC who, based on their record of enforcement over the last 15 years, statistically speaking, will do nothing.

[wilbilt62]

2 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

They can complain to the FCC who, based on their record of enforcement over the last 15 years, statistically speaking, will do nothing.

If no rules or laws have been broken, what would be the basis of the complaint? A serious question. 

[OffRoaderX]

Just now, wilbilt62 said:

If no rules or laws have been broken

I *think* there is an FCC rule buried somewhere about not using repeaters without permission?  But I will yield to anyone that knows/cares more about it than I do.

[wilbilt62]

1 minute ago, OffRoaderX said:

I *think* there is an FCC rule buried somewhere about not using repeaters without permission?  But I will yield to anyone that knows/cares more about it than I do.

Fair enough. I have read the part 95 GMRS regs over and over and I don't see it.

Maybe someone else can clarify.

[Socalgmrs]

From what I see (1705-d-2&3) there is no provision against using a random repeater without permission.  However there is a provision about not using one if the owner has told you specifically you can not use it.  Or they may limit who can use specificly can use it.   It seams like to be in any violation a specific person would have to be told by the repeater owner they could not use the repeater.  

[wilbilt62]

24 minutes ago, Socalgmrs said:

From what I see (1705-d-2&3) there is no provision against using a random repeater without permission.  However there is a provision about not using one if the owner has told you specifically you can not use it.  Or they may limit who can use specificly can use it.   It seams like to be in any violation a specific person would have to be told by the repeater owner they could not use the repeater.  

Yes, I see that now.

Unfortunately, where I live in rural Nor Cal, you can't swing a dead cat around without hitting somebody's "private" repeater.

Often on the same frequencies and tones.

Might as well shut my radios down and throw them away. A shame that "public" frequencies aren't "public".