Utilizing GMRS vs Ham repeaters for a newbie!

[nokones]

3 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

Here is what will happen if you break the FCC rules and use a H.A.M.s Radios repeater without a license to talk with your friends.

• The helpful/socially adjusted licensed operators will likely inform you that you're breaking the rules and politely ask you to stop
• If you continue, "some people" will become very sad and complain very loudly and make baseless threats
• If you continue to continue, the local H.A.M. posse could initiate a fox-hunt - either the old fashioned way or by use of something like a KrakenRF which makes it very fast and easy to locate a transmitter
• Assuming you continue long enough for them to find you, now they know where you were transmitting from
• They could knock on your door - but this would be very ill-advised for them. At a minimum they would be trespassing if you tell them to STFU and leave as they have zero legal authority to do anything.  At worst you could come outside and bitch-slap their fat-asses, call them names, make fun of their clothes, and make them cry.
• They could pull out the BIG GUNS and file a complaint with the FCC.  But based on the FCC's number of enforcements over the last 15 years, there is a 99.9999998% statistical certainty that the FCC will do NOTHING

It's a joke how so many of you clowns keep repeating these lies or insinuating that something horrible will happen if an outsider breaks your precious hobby's rules and THIS is exactly why so many normal-people make fun of you and your entire hobby.

 

TL;dr: NOTHING OF CONSEQUENCE WILL HAPPEN.

What would happen if a scofflaw pisses off the Sad Hams while mobile? Will these Sad Hams be able to pin point who this scofflaw is while driving around?

[OffRoaderX]

7 minutes ago, nokones said:

What would happen if a scofflaw pisses off the Sad Hams while mobile? Will these Sad Hams be able to pin point who this scofflaw is while driving around?

Actually, yes.. If they are using a doppler type locator like the KrakenRF, it's fairly easy to do. I've done it myself.  

But again, the next question is "then what?"

[nokones]

12 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Actually, yes.. If they are using a doppler type locator like the KrakenRF, it's fairly easy to do. I've done it myself.  

But again, the next question is "then what?"

Ok, so I can clearly understand this, if I was driving around and I key up for about 30 seconds and no more than 60 seconds and the Sad Ham's Kracken pin points my location at that time, and I am still driving down the Boulevard and I keyed again a 1/4 or 1/2 mile down the road for another 30-60 seconds, and key again briefly some distance away and then stop keying, how would this Sad Ham be able to figure out who I was after I stop keying? Just curious how would they be able to continue the tracking after the keying  stops. I likely doubt that anyone could muster up a posse that quick and go search for the person that was just keying briefly a few times and stopped keying.

[OffRoaderX]

58 minutes ago, nokones said:

if I was driving around and I key up for about 30 seconds and no more than 60 seconds and the Sad Ham's Kracken pin points my location at that time, and I am still driving down the Boulevard and I keyed again a 1/4 or 1/2 mile down the road for another 30-60 seconds, and key again briefly some distance away and then stop keying, how would this Sad Ham be able to figure out who I was after I stop keying? Just curious how would they be able to continue the tracking after the keying  stops. I likely doubt that anyone could muster up a posse that quick and go search for the person that was just keying briefly a few times and stopped keying.

Two issues here: 

1. Mustering the posse and/or just getting the Kraken antenna array setup on the car and getting said car to your general location can take time -you could very well be long gone by then
2. If you are SMART about it, keying only a few seconds at a time, then moving, it would be very difficult - if you only did it 2 or 3 times, it could event be impossible..  BUT - if you are having an ongoing conversation, even while driving or as in the case of the guy that I caught jamming one of our repeaters, continuously keying while driving, it gets easier. 

TL;dr: If you're smart, its nearly impossible.. If you're an idiot that thinks you are immune to being caught, it gets easier when using a Kraken. Luckily all of our repeater jammers have been idiots.

[Raybestos]

1 hour ago, nokones said:

Ok, so I can clearly understand this, if I was driving around and I key up for about 30 seconds and no more than 60 seconds and the Sad Ham's Kracken pin points my location at that time, and I am still driving down the Boulevard and I keyed again a 1/4 or 1/2 mile down the road for another 30-60 seconds, and key again briefly some distance away and then stop keying, how would this Sad Ham be able to figure out who I was after I stop keying? Just curious how would they be able to continue the tracking after the keying  stops. I likely doubt that anyone could muster up a posse that quick and go search for the person that was just keying briefly a few times and stopped keying.

KrakenRF uses a unique technology which bends time and space to allow tracking of signals that were transmitted up to several days ago.  By allowing repeated trips back to the time these transmissions were made, KrakenRF makes tracking of even single brief transmissions easy.

 

 

[nokones]

1 hour ago, OffRoaderX said:

Two issues here: 

1. Mustering the posse and/or just getting the Kraken antenna array setup on the car and getting said car to your general location can take time -you could very well be long gone by then
2. If you are SMART about it, keying only a few seconds at a time, then moving, it would be very difficult - if you only did it 2 or 3 times, it could event be impossible..  BUT - if you are having an ongoing conversation, even while driving or as in the case of the guy that I caught jamming one of our repeaters, continuously keying while driving, it gets easier. 

TL;dr: If you're smart, its nearly impossible.. If you're an idiot that thinks you are immune to being caught, it gets easier when using a Kraken. Luckily all of our repeater jammers have been idiots.

Thanks Randy.

I hope you're doing OK and surviving since Cheetos shut down their local factory.

[amaff]

6 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

Here we go with the 'I need to mod my radio so I can talk to the Po Po, just in case."

That's a gorgeous strawman you've built there lol

No one (and definitely not in the post you quoted) was talking about public safety frequencies. 
 

[WRTC928]

4 hours ago, Lscott said:

I guess I should have explained it better. There is what the rules say, then there is what really happens in practice. 

There are all kinds of rules and even laws where breaches will be ignored or forgiven when it's done for a legitimate emergency. Which is a perfectly reasonable approach, IMO.

[OffRoaderX]

31 minutes ago, nokones said:

I hope you're doing OK and surviving since Cheetos shut down their local factory.

Its been a struggle, but we will get through this difficult time.

[WRKC935]

2 hours ago, amaff said:

That's a gorgeous strawman you've built there lol

No one (and definitely not in the post you quoted) was talking about public safety frequencies. 
 

No strawman to it.  It might NOT have been what you were referring to, but I can promise you that even today with statewide 700/800 radio systems the ARES guys STILL 100% believe that they should have access to that system and every analog public safety repeater on the air.  And it's not just the ARES crowd.  The number of average hams that 100% believe that little blurb in part 97 about 'any means at your disposal' means talking to the Po Po is completely acceptable and expected.  I had this discussion with a couple hams about 10 years ago.  They were adamant that was what it meant.  I had to talk to the FCC on business related stuff and ask them as a side question about it and that is exactly what they said.  Ham operators can use any HAM frequency in the ham allocation during an emergency.  But that was it.  They went further to state that modifying a Part 97 (ham) radio was against the rules and at no time should a part 97 radio be used on part 90 frequencies.  They also said that even if they were using commercial part 90 radios, that without prior authorization being issued that they would be in violation.  They emailed me all of this and I actually printed it out and had it laminated and would stuff it in the face of the hams that were convinced they were authorized by the regulation to talk to the public safety dispatchers on their channels, from their personal radios, if there was an emergency. 

I run into this about once a month.  Someone will bring a radio into the shop they want loaded with public safety frequencies they got from radio reference.  Half of the stuff isn't even on the air any more.  Hell, some of it I pulled from service.    We just tell them that they need letters from the fire chief / sheriff / someone on letterhead with an MOU and we will be happy to program them in.  Without the MOU in hand they get nothing.

 

[gortex2]

Whats really sad is the amount of folks on this forum that encourage folks to break the rules. Regardless if its uncertified radios, using non gmrs frequencies like ham. Then on top of it it we tell folks dont worry no one cares or can do anything. What happened to be a stewardess of the hobby/service ? Lately this forum isn't much better than the prepper forums out there. 

[OffRoaderX]

2 hours ago, gortex2 said:

... we tell folks dont worry no one cares or can do anything. What happened to be a stewardess of the hobby/service ? Lately this forum isn't much better than the prepper forums out there. 

Telling the truth about rules and consequences is much closer to being a steward of the service than spreading lies and misinformation about it.

[nokones]

Prior to moving from Northern California in 2019 where 99.2% of the public safety systems were analog conventional VHF& UHF systems, I would get several requests to program various vintage Mototola radios because no one had the capability any longer, with public safety and/or Ham freqs. Some of the people said they were either volunteers or reserves, but the radios were privately owned. I refused to program any public safety freqs.

As for the people that wanted Ham freqs, I also to turned them away for a couple reasons, one for not having the HAM channel information to be programmed and/or for the HAM freqs being out of the operating band range of their radio. 

One genuine Einstein even brought me, I think was a MTX9000, that operated in the 900 MHz band with a operating band range above the 900 MHz Amateur band, and he wanted both 2 Meter and 70 cm freqs programmed in the radio. And this guy also didn't have any programming channel information. I guess I was supposed to look that up for him.

After moving to Arizona in 2019, I only had one guy show up driving a Black Crown Vic with spot lights requesting a vintage Motorola radio programmed with both GMRS and a couple police UHF freqs. The radio was a VHF radio that I suspect was an old LAPD VHF radio.

I don't get too many real Einsteins wanting public safety freqs programmed in their privately owned radios since every agency in the Phoenix area operates on either Phase 1 or 2 Digital Trunk and encrypted 700 MHz systems.

[Lscott]

On 7/25/2025 at 6:32 PM, nokones said:

Ok, so I can clearly understand this, if I was driving around and I key up for about 30 seconds and no more than 60 seconds and the Sad Ham's Kracken pin points my location at that time, and I am still driving down the Boulevard and I keyed again a 1/4 or 1/2 mile down the road for another 30-60 seconds, and key again briefly some distance away and then stop keying, how would this Sad Ham be able to figure out who I was after I stop keying? Just curious how would they be able to continue the tracking after the keying  stops. I likely doubt that anyone could muster up a posse that quick and go search for the person that was just keying briefly a few times and stopped keying.

I have a buddy who did that on some public safety frequency using a Baofeng while mobile some years back. When he told me I got him to stop explaining it was the quickest way to get nailed.

Now he’s now a licensed a Ham and has his GMRS one too. He’s very happy with both now.

He showed me an article in the local town paper a year or so later where his actions were used to justify moving to a digital radio system for the affected agency. Plus it went on to say the FCC was actively DF’ing his signal at the time. He’s lucky.

[WRUE951]

17 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Whats really sad is the amount of folks on this forum that encourage folks to break the rules. Regardless if its uncertified radios, using non gmrs frequencies like ham. Then on top of it it we tell folks dont worry no one cares or can do anything. What happened to be a stewardess of the hobby/service ? Lately this forum isn't much better than the prepper forums out there. 

100% of my HAM friends have their 'HAM' radios tuned into GMRS .   And i would say most or maybe all of them have their radios programed to FCC required specs..  i.e. power levels, bandwidth, frequency etc.   None that i know of have FRS programed into their radios.   I wold be willing to bet ya a 'Silver Dollar' that most hams in this country do the same.   Most just don't talke about it.  

[OffRoaderX]

10 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

100% of my HAM friends have their 'HAM' radios tuned into GMRS .   None that i know of have FRS programed into their radios. 

Someone please tell him.....

[WRUE951]

9 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Someone please tell him.....

I’ll wait. 

[OffRoaderX]

FRS and GMRS frequencies are the same.. If their radio is tuned into GMRS, it is tuned into FRS..

[nokones]

8 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

100% of my HAM friends have their 'HAM' radios tuned into GMRS .   And i would say most or maybe all of them have their radios programed to FCC required specs..  i.e. power levels, bandwidth, frequency etc.   None that i know of have FRS programed into their radios.   I wold be willing to bet ya a 'Silver Dollar' that most hams in this country do the same.   Most just don't talke about it.  

Channels 1-7 and 15-22 are both FRS and GMRS. Channels 8-14 are FRS only. Most of the Hams I know will not play on Ham freqs anymore. Some of them have their General or Extra license.

They play on GMRS because that is where the Cool Radio Dorks play and hangout. I was told by my Ham friends that most of the Hams are very different, uppy up, snoobish, and cannot connect with other Hams very well, and getting into Ham was not what they expected and no longer will play on Amateur radio, and more than likely will just let their Ham license expire.

[UncleYoda]

29 minutes ago, nokones said:

Channels 8-14 are FRS only.

Nope.  If you have a GMRS radio, typically only HTs, that will do 1/2 watt, then it's allowed.  But I agree in a practical sense, it's better to not use those channels.

§ 95.563 FRS channels.
The FRS is allotted 22 channels, each having a channel bandwidth of 12.5 kHz. All of the FRS channels are
also allotted to the General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) on a shared basis.

[WRTC928]

9 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

100% of my HAM friends have their 'HAM' radios tuned into GMRS .   And i would say most or maybe all of them have their radios programed to FCC required specs..  i.e. power levels, bandwidth, frequency etc.   None that i know of have FRS programed into their radios.   I wold be willing to bet ya a 'Silver Dollar' that most hams in this country do the same.   Most just don't talke about it.  

I think most hams who also have GMRS licenses have amateur and GMRS frequencies on the same radio. It's so much more convenient than carrying two radios...I've heard...

Regardless of the radio used, I'm a proponent of sticking to the authorized power levels and bandwidths because I don't want to interfere with someone else's enjoyment of the airwaves.

[WRKC935]

23 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

Telling the truth about rules and consequences is much closer to being a steward of the service than spreading lies and misinformation about it.

I don't disagree, but I'm not sure where the lies and misinformation statement comes from.

There are regulations on the books that restrict the stuff we are talking about.  The FCC choosing to ignore the enforcement of those rules doesn't void them.

And there are things that many of us do that violate those rules.  The big one is running channels 14-22 wither wide band of in a radio that will not turn down to the legal power level.  Then there are the guys with high power XTL's and such that don't turn their power down, running 100 watts on GMRS, either simplex or through a repeater.

Hell, I will admit to the fact my one GMRS repeater is putting 75 watts out the back of it.  Mind you it's going into a high loss transmit combiner, and that 75 in results in 18 out the other side.  But it matches the receive very well at that level so I don't talk out farther than I can hear with mobile coverage.  Portables can hear it farther than they can talk back to it, but that's a 10dB difference in power output causing that.  And since it says NO LINKING I can't even add receive sites to equalize the portable coverage at this point.  And again to your statement, who would know or care if I put up satellite receivers that were linked and voted back to the transmitter. 

The point is there are rules.  You should at least TRY to follow them.  Even if others don't.

 

[WRTC928]

29 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Nope.  If you have a GMRS radio, typically only HTs, that will do 1/2 watt, then it's allowed.  But I agree in a practical sense, it's better to not use those channels.

§ 95.563 FRS channels.
The FRS is allotted 22 channels, each having a channel bandwidth of 12.5 kHz. All of the FRS channels are
also allotted to the General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) on a shared basis.

I have a couple of HTs that output 0.5 watt or less on the low power setting. On the others, I block transmission on 8-14, but I usually monitor them.

[nokones]

12 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Nope.  If you have a GMRS radio, typically only HTs, that will do 1/2 watt, then it's allowed.  But I agree in a practical sense, it's better to not use those channels.

Regardless, even if Channels 8-14 are factory default channels in a GMRS Part 95 Type-Accepted handheld radios and only transmit at a half-watt ERP, they are still FRS only channels and not GMRS channels, and by rule do not require a license to operate on those channels.

This is not a matter that is typically, normally, or in general, by rule it is "mandatory" only channels 8-14 can only be programmed in a Handheld Radio. In all Part 95 Type-Accepted radios, the radio firmware will prevent any radio from being programmed with channels 8-14 unless it is a handheld and able to regulate the RF output power to a half-watt ERP, and more than likely equipped with a fixed antenna that cannot not be removed.

[WRTC928]

3 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

And there are things that many of us do that violate those rules.  The big one is running channels 14-22 wither wide band of in a radio that will not turn down to the legal power level.

Wide bandwidth is authorized for GMRS users on 1-7 and 15-22 per FCC rules.