Change My Mind - I Don't Need Permission to Use Your Repeater

[marcspaz]

 

I Don't Need Permission to Use Your Repeater - Change My Mind

 

This isn't an attack on anyone... just meant to stimulate conversation. I am 100% open to hearing dissenting opinions. Lets chat.

So, this happened to a friend of mine recently.  He used a repeater that the owner did not expressly say he was approved to use.  The repeater owner/manager sought him out off the air, told him that he isn't authorized and to not use it again.    

Here are some facts, that are not open for debate...  In some states, a person is not criminally trespassing on realty unless a person has been notified by the realty owner either verbally, with signs, etc., followed by a complaint filed with the courts, a judge agrees with the realty owner and issues a court order for that person to stay off the property, AND THEN that person returns to the property.  There is no other private trespass beyond unauthorized access to private real property.  

Also, the FCC has already published an opinion that they will not modify the rules requiring operators to gain permission to use another licensee's repeater.  Literally every license holder has equal right to use every frequency, every tone, every code, etc.  If your repeater receives my signal and re-transmits my signal, that is not my problem.  As the repeater owner and licensee, by FCC rule, YOU are responsible for what is transmitted by your radio.  It is up to you to manage things accordingly, including intentional or unintentional transmitting of another radio's signal.

Here is the opinion... if I need a judge to agree with me that someone shouldn't be on my property and issue a court order to keep them out of my house, and the FCC said they aren't requiring permission, why should I ask for permission to use a repeater?  Maybe as a courtesy?  Why else?

I mean, as a repeater owner, part of me thinks it would be nice to be able to have some teeth behind efforts to stop a troublemaker from using my repeater.  Another part of me thinks, I sure as heck don't want to try to track and manage potentially hundreds or even thousands of operators on my repeater.  I am way too busy for that.  Not to mention I am not spending thousands and thousands of dollars to have the systems sit there and not be used.  That would be such as waste.

 

If the FCC says I don't need permission and it's up to the owner to use technology to manage access, and state laws have set precedent on what trespass is through State Code and Tort Law (which is limited to real property), then I don't need permission to use your repeater... change my mind!

[LeoG]

Maybe I might come and hunt you down because I'm a crazy MFer

 

Is that the chance you want to take?

The airwaves are free to listen to.  In most cases they are not free to transmit on legally.  Using someone else's property without permission isn't right.  Like borrowing someone's car without permission.  You are using their hardware.  If I recall all you have to do is address the problem of someone abusing your repeater and then after that it's not really your issue with the FCC.  At best you can shut it down but that's usually reserved for a malfunction, not a crazy person trespassing on your hardware.

There is literally nothing you can do to prevent them from using your equipment other than my opening statement.  Switching frequencies and/or tones will only delay someone hell bent on using it.

[OffRoaderX]

10 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Is that the chance you want to take?

yes

[LeoG]

Well, travel the 3300 miles and bring it on

[WRUU653]

(1) Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s) (see paragraph (c) of this section);
3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.
 

40 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

the FCC said they aren't requiring permission,

Kind of seems like they are. That’s my take on it for whatever good it may do.

[OffRoaderX]

8 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Kind of seems like they are.

The fact that the FCC has not enforced it in the last 15 years says otherwise.

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

The fact that the FCC has not enforced it in the last 15 years says otherwise.

Has anyone complained to the FCC about prohibited persons using their repeater?  If we don’t know of any such complaints then we don’t know if FCC would enforce the rule. Someone has to complain before the FCC will respond and their first response is required to be a letter usually. But I agree that the FCC has not enforced the rule.

[marcspaz]

2 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

(1) Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s) (see paragraph (c) of this section);
3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.
 

Kind of seems like they are. That’s my take on it for whatever good it may do.

 

This section confirms my opinion, putting the responsibility of stopping undesired access on the owner. It doesn't say other licensees need permission.

[marcspaz]

15 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Has anyone complained to the FCC about prohibited persons using their repeater?  If we don’t know of any such complaints then we don’t know if FCC would enforce the rule. Someone has to complain before the FCC will respond and their first response is required to be a letter usually. But I agree that the FCC has not enforced the rule.

I personally filed a complaint a few years ago. They told me it wasn't a rule violation unless the person was transmitting in such a way that they were causing harmful interference. No such harmful interference was occurring, so the FCC opted not to take any action. They told me that it was up to me to resolve any access control issues. That's the very reason why the two repeaters located at my house are always off unless I plan on using them specifically. I got tired of a troublemaker causing problems for me.

[SteveShannon]

32 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

I personally filed a complaint a few years ago. They told me it wasn't a rule violation unless the person was transmitting in such a way that they were causing harmful interference. No such harmful interference was occurring, so the FCC opted not to take any action. They told me that it was up to me to resolve any access control issues. That's the very reason why the two repeaters located at my house are always off unless I plan on using them specifically. I got tired of a troublemaker causing problems for me.

Then it seems like you already had the official answer to this question.  The FCC does not require a person to seek permission before using a repeater.

[WRTC928]

With radios capable of scanning for and picking up tones, there's literally no way to keep someone off your repeater unless you just keep it a secret. I can't imagine FCC or anyone else would consider you responsible if you've taken appropriate steps to notify someone they're not allowed to use it.

[WRYZ926]

One way to keep others from using your repeater is to use different input and output tones. Radios will only scan the output tones of other repeaters/radios. But even that is not fool proof.

We all know you can't stop someone from using a frequency/channel as no one owns them. Using different tones and/or shutting your repeaters down when you are not using them helps keep others from using your repeater.

Our club has sent out cease and desist letters in the past. Knock on wood, those letters has kept most ID10T's from using our repeaters. One particular ID10T has been told to stay off just about every area 2m and 70cm repeater in the area. He has received letters from at least 3 repeater owners. Again this is not fool proof either.

A person would have to aggressively cause interference/jamming your repeaters before the FCC will even think about looking into the issue. And good luck getting the FCC to actually do anything about it.

[LeoG]

4 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Has anyone complained to the FCC about prohibited persons using their repeater?  If we don’t know of any such complaints then we don’t know if FCC would enforce the rule. Someone has to complain before the FCC will respond and their first response is required to be a letter usually. But I agree that the FCC has not enforced the rule.

Pretty sure they won't.  Seems they are interested in the big boyz such as commercial broadcast and emergency use radio being abused by people not allowed on those frequencies. Otherwise they'd be one hell of a busy agency cracking down on all sorts of things like non use of IDing, wrong use of part ?? radios on part ?? use only bands etc.

[LeoG]

4 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

This section confirms my opinion, putting the responsibility of stopping undesired access on the owner. It doesn't say other licensees need permission.

Yes, all you need to do is disallow them use and you are done.  After that the illegality is on the person who shouldn't be using the repeater.  Maybe not illegality but regulatory, less harsh a word.

[WRTC928]

I've never had it happen, but I only just now posted my repeater as "open" so it's possible. I've been listening to all the repeaters in my area for months, though, and I haven't heard anyone being abusive, so I decided to risk it.

[jwilkers]

 
I Don't Need Permission to Use Your Repeater - Change My Mind
 
This isn't an attack on anyone... just meant to stimulate conversation. I am 100% open to hearing dissenting opinions. Lets chat.
So, this happened to a friend of mine recently.  He used a repeater that the owner did not expressly say he was approved to use.  The repeater owner/manager sought him out off the air, told him that he isn't authorized and to not use it again.    
Here are some facts, that are not open for debate...  In some states, a person is not criminally trespassing on realty unless a person has been notified by the realty owner either verbally, with signs, etc., followed by a complaint filed with the courts, a judge agrees with the realty owner and issues a court order for that person to stay off the property, AND THEN that person returns to the property.  There is no other private trespass beyond unauthorized access to private real property.  
Also, the FCC has already published an opinion that they will not modify the rules requiring operators to gain permission to use another licensee's repeater.  Literally every license holder has equal right to use every frequency, every tone, every code, etc.  If your repeater receives my signal and re-transmits my signal, that is not my problem.  As the repeater owner and licensee, by FCC rule, YOU are responsible for what is transmitted by your radio.  It is up to you to manage things accordingly, including intentional or unintentional transmitting of another radio's signal.
Here is the opinion... if I need a judge to agree with me that someone shouldn't be on my property and issue a court order to keep them out of my house, and the FCC said they aren't requiring permission, why should I ask for permission to use a repeater?  Maybe as a courtesy?  Why else?
I mean, as a repeater owner, part of me thinks it would be nice to be able to have some teeth behind efforts to stop a troublemaker from using my repeater.  Another part of me thinks, I sure as heck don't want to try to track and manage potentially hundreds or even thousands of operators on my repeater.  I am way too busy for that.  Not to mention I am not spending thousands and thousands of dollars to have the systems sit there and not be used.  That would be such as waste.
 
If the FCC says I don't need permission and it's up to the owner to use technology to manage access, and state laws have set precedent on what trespass is through State Code and Tort Law (which is limited to real property), then I don't need permission to use your repeater... change my mind!

You cannot use the repeater input frequencies unless you are wanting to access a repeater. So. You are deliberately interfering with or trespassing on a repeater if you access it.

Now....if you are on the repeater *output * frequency, talking simplex, then you are good.

The fcc has taken action against those who have been banned from (ham) repeaters. Usually, a single notice of violation is enough to keep the offending party off the repeater.

Sent from my SM-S911U1 using Tapatalk

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRYZ926 said:

Radios will only scan the output tones of other repeaters/radios. But even that is not fool proof.

Right, nothing prevents a person from listening on the input frequency for the input tones. Of course it’s easier with an opened up radio than it is with a 95E certified radio.

[SteveShannon]

5 hours ago, marcspaz said:

This section confirms my opinion, putting the responsibility of stopping undesired access on the owner. It doesn't say other licensees need permission.

Exactly.  But I believe that getting permission is the courteous thing to do.

So, to summarize, if someone uses your repeater without permission, that’s not a rule violation.

Repeater owners are responsible for ensuring that people who use their repeater obey the regulations.

Repeater owners must find a way to deny access to someone who violates regulations while using their repeater.

Repeater owners are in a tight spot.
 

[WRYZ926]

15 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Right, nothing prevents a person from listening on the input frequency for the input tones. Of course it’s easier with an opened up radio than it is with a 95E certified radio.

You can program Part 95 certified radios to listen on the repeater input frequencies too. I have found that I had to use programming software to do this. I have our GMRS repeater input set to memory on my base radio and a few hand held radios. I have done it with my Wouxun radios using the Won software and with the RT Systems software.

Setting a radio to one of the repeater channels and hitting the tone scan will only scan for the repeater output tone.

If someone goes through the trouble to program a repeater's input frequency and scans for the input tone just so they can be an ID10T is a total Richard Cranium move in my book.

[LeoG]

37 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Right, nothing prevents a person from listening on the input frequency for the input tones. Of course it’s easier with an opened up radio than it is with a 95E certified radio.

Easy enough to roll through all the tones late at night.  No one knows you are doing it until you hit the correct tone and then you can stop.

[WRUU653]

8 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

The fact that the FCC has not enforced it in the last 15 years says otherwise.

Thus my comment “for whatever good it does.” Kind of a here are the rules and guidelines now you all figure it out amongst yourselves while we here at the FCC attend to more important things approach. 

6 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

This section confirms my opinion, putting the responsibility of stopping undesired access on the owner. It doesn't say other licensees need permission.

This wasn’t lost on me. I was just pointing out the wording of “may disallow” indicates you have the right to ask someone to leave, meaning they need your permission. As @OffRoaderX has pointed out many times, enforcement isn’t.

10 hours ago, marcspaz said:

I Don't Need Permission to Use Your Repeater - Change My Mind

The rules are what they are.
Enforcement is or isn’t what it is.  
Manners and social decorum, respect for others, what do we have without that? 
You can’t force people to act like good humans. It’s better for everyone if we do.
Does this change your mind?

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, jwilkers said:

You cannot use the repeater input frequencies unless you are wanting to access a repeater. So. You are deliberately interfering with or trespassing on a repeater if you access it.

 

We are discussing GMRS, which has different rules, but for the sake of discussion... 

First, why would I be on those GMRS frequencies.  Well, to use the repeater that the owner may otherwise want you to ask for permission, or any other repeater on the same frequency. There is a lot of overlap in the DC metro area.  I can be heard on 3 different repeaters on .600 in my area when I am only using 20w.  Also, fixed stations may transmit on those 8 channels without going through a repeater. 

I disagree about the interference and trespass concerns based on the FCC rules for Amateur Radio and trespass laws.  If I am using a repeater without the owners consent, I am not causing interference nor trespassing.  Use of the repeater itself is not causing interference.  Intentionally talking over people and making it so others can't use it (or the frequency) falls under the harmful interference rules, which would be different than needing permission. 

Again, there are no laws that I have been able to find implying trespass on non-real property.  

 

1 hour ago, jwilkers said:

The fcc has taken action against those who have been banned from (ham) repeaters. Usually, a single notice of violation is enough to keep the offending party off the repeater.

 

I have two points to debate on this comment.  Again, you are referencing Amateur Radio, not GMRS.  There are different rules.  Additionally, there are only 3 letters I could find that were issued to amateurs in the last 10 years for using a single repeater.  All 3 letters were sent in 2017, went to 3 different people, and the complainants were the same person/trustee complaining about 3 people causing problems at or around the same time, preventing the trustee and club members from using their own repeater.  So, there was a lot more to it than just not having prior authorization to use the repeater.

With regard to GMRS, I cannot find a single direct warning letter for GMRS repeater use refusal.  Not one.  Meaning, there are no publicly available FCC warning letters or Notices of Apparent Liability that mirror the amateur radio pattern above, i.e., issued to a GMRS operator for continuing to use a repeater after being told not to.

FCC rules clearly grant GMRS repeater owners control, but enforcement is murky at best. According to Part 95 rules noted in an earlier post, a GMRS licensee “may disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary” to carry out responsibilities under the rules. This implies the owner can refuse access.  However, there’s no record of the FCC stepping in if a GMRS user ignored a private owner’s request to stop using a repeater, unlike the amateur (Part 97) precedent.

Also, in 1999 the FCC issued a formal opinion in WT Docket 98-20, 96-188, RM-8677 and RM-9107 (https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-99-139A1.pdf) about implementing a rule to require users to get permission to use a repeater 'prior' to repeater use. It has not been brought up since.  Here is the text...

 

"...repeater operators ask that we require users to have permission before using others' repeaters. We decline to adopt such a rule because it would interject the Commission into a GMRS licensee's private management of its GMRS system, including its repeaters. Such a rule also would be inconsistent with our efforts to eliminate unnecessary regulations and burdens for GMRS licensees and applicants. We emphasize that users are free to take steps to prevent unauthorized use of their facilities, including turning the repeater off as necessary, limiting or disabling receiver sites, and using tone-operated squelch or digital access codes. Moreover, the rule suggested by petitioners would do nothing to change access to repeater; even with the rule, an unauthorized user could cause a repeater to transmit, absent some engineering solution to limit access to the repeater input."

Short of a new opinion from the FCC or a rule change, this very clearly states that GMRS repeater owners are on their own if they want an operator to stop using their repeater.

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

Exactly.  But I believe that getting permission is the courteous thing to do.

So, to summarize, if someone uses your repeater without permission, that’s not a rule violation.

Repeater owners are responsible for ensuring that people who use their repeater obey the regulations.

Repeater owners must find a way to deny access to someone who violates regulations while using their repeater.

Repeater owners are in a tight spot.
 

 

I agree with all of your comments...  Especial having it be the courteous thing to do. 

 

Some of my posts can get a bit spicy, so I feel it's important to point out that while I am having a conversation about not needing permission from a legal or regulatory standpoint, I do agree that it's someone's personal belonging, that we are using (or asking to use), and as a civilized society we should be mindful and respectful of that.

[LeoG]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

 

FCC rules clearly grant GMRS repeater owners control, but enforcement is murky at best. According to Part 95 rules noted in an earlier post, a GMRS licensee “may disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary” to carry out responsibilities under the rules. This implies the owner can refuse access.  However, there’s no record of the FCC stepping in if a GMRS user ignored a private owner’s request to stop using a repeater, unlike the amateur (Part 97) precedent.

That sounds like you can be kicked out but don't need permission to access in the first place.

"May disallow" sounds to me like an after the fact term.

[OffRoaderX]

8 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Has anyone complained to the FCC about prohibited persons using their repeater?  If we don’t know of any such complaints then we don’t know if FCC would enforce the rule. Someone has to complain before the FCC will respond and their first response is required to be a letter usually.

YES! - Here in southern California we have had two rounds of everyone in our local group(s) complaining about prohibited persons using/jamming our repeaters - a total of hundreds of complaints, submitted both online and via certified mail.
..and I have read online accounts of dozens if not hundreds of people filing complaints.. Filing a complain is so easy it is safe to surmise that the FCC receives hundreds per day from across the country.

It is clear that the FCC has not cared for at least the last 15 years, based on their enforcement database which up until only a year or so ago included publishing warning letters.