An example of how little RF output power matters

[LeoG]

That's the nature of FM.  It needs to lock on before the signal can be heard.

[WRYZ926]

If the incoming signal is not strong enough then a repeater will not open and retransmit. Or the repeater will open but constantly drop the signal and reopen then drop again AKA not holding the repeater open.

If you can open the repeater but not hold it at a certain power level then going up on power can and will make a difference. Even going from 5 watts to 10 watts can make the difference, But you have to be able to open the repeater to begin with.

As far as the human ear goes. most people cannot tell the difference in one S unit. One S unit is a single bar on the radios signal strength meter. It does take 4x the power to raise the signal by one S unit/6 dB.

[SteveShannon]

32 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

If the incoming signal is not strong enough then a repeater will not open and retransmit. Or the repeater will open but constantly drop the signal and reopen then drop again AKA not holding the repeater open.

If you can open the repeater but not hold it at a certain power level then going up on power can and will make a difference. Even going from 5 watts to 10 watts can make the difference, But you have to be able to open the repeater to begin with.

As far as the human ear goes. most people cannot tell the difference in one S unit. One S unit is a single bar on the radios signal strength meter. It does take 4x the power to raise the signal by one S unit/6 dB.

Many repeaters (I don’t know the actual numbers) are set to remain open for a period of time, usually a few seconds, after they receive a signal that is strong enough to activate them. How does that work with your second sentence?

[WRTC928]

9 hours ago, LeoG said:

That's the nature of FM.  It needs to lock on before the signal can be heard.

 

39 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

If the incoming signal is not strong enough then a repeater will not open and retransmit. Or the repeater will open but constantly drop the signal and reopen then drop again AKA not holding the repeater open.

If you can open the repeater but not hold it at a certain power level then going up on power can and will make a difference. Even going from 5 watts to 10 watts can make the difference, But you have to be able to open the repeater to begin with.

As far as the human ear goes. most people cannot tell the difference in one S unit. One S unit is a single bar on the radios signal strength meter. It does take 4x the power to raise the signal by one S unit/6 dB.

That's what I was getting at in a less eloquent way. A repeater is a case where just a couple more watts can make a significant difference. Simplex is a different matter. An "ordinary" radio can pick up signals at all different levels of strength and you'll hear (or not hear) them pretty much at the level at which they arrive.

[LeoG]

You can "open" a repeater and still not get a voice modulated signal through it.  The tones in a very weak signal still make it through easily while voice doesn't.  So you might be able to activate the repeater but still not have a strong enough signal for your voice to be heard on the other side.  Happens to me all the time with my repeater because I am right on the edge of it's coverage.

[WRUE951]

36 minutes ago, LeoG said:

You can "open" a repeater and still not get a voice modulated signal through it.  The tones in a very weak signal still make it through easily while voice doesn't.  So you might be able to activate the repeater but still not have a strong enough signal for your voice to be heard on the other side.  Happens to me all the time with my repeater because I am right on the edge of it's coverage.

depends how you have the squelch threshold set up on the repeater.  set it up right is the key here..   

[Northcutt114]

2 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Many repeaters (I don’t know the actual numbers) are set to remain open for a period of time, usually a few seconds, after they receive a signal that is strong enough to activate them. How does that work with your second sentence?

I know you weren't asking me, but it's been my experience that the other users will hear what appears to be a deadkey. We have people occasionally key up and while you think you can distinguish traffic, it's indecipherable and then it just goes away. Usually someone, if monitoring, will key up and say something along the lines of "Last station, repeat your traffic, it was unreadable." The same thing happens. Repeater opens up and we all basically hear white noise and then after a second it goes away.

[WRUE951]

1 hour ago, Northcutt114 said:

I know you weren't asking me, but it's been my experience that the other users will hear what appears to be a deadkey. We have people occasionally key up and while you think you can distinguish traffic, it's indecipherable and then it just goes away. Usually someone, if monitoring, will key up and say something along the lines of "Last station, repeat your traffic, it was unreadable." The same thing happens. Repeater opens up and we all basically hear white noise and then after a second it goes away.

there is a huge difference between 'dead keying' types.. Most normal people if not all, will do the occasional dead key to satisfy themselves their radio is working by the repeater 'kerchunk'.  Then you have the 'rapid fire' dead keyers.  Those are the ass wipes that are doing it to create attentions for themselves..  I would rather hear an occaisional dead key over non stop radio checks,, and definatly would like to ****** those rapid fire dead keyers.   Use your imagination on the ***,  mines starts with 'M'

[WRYZ926]

6 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Many repeaters (I don’t know the actual numbers) are set to remain open for a period of time, usually a few seconds, after they receive a signal that is strong enough to activate them. How does that work with your second sentence?

When it happens on our repeaters it sounds like someone rapid firing kerchunks. I have no idea how or why it happens but it does.

[WRXB215]

Careful with the redrum.

[WRUQ357]

On 10/2/2025 at 7:21 AM, WRUE951 said:

Actually, its all about the antenna..   I do a lot of RV traveling with 3 other RV traveling friends.  We all have the same 40W mobile radios.  Two of us have the normal UHF whip antenna two have the Midland Ghost antenna..  When we travel in areas like Route 1 in the Redwoods,,  we are lucky to get out two miles if that..  The two of us with the whips do a lot bettter in distance than the two with the ghost antenna..  Get out in open space and the chost antnnas work as good as the whips...

I have my ghost antenna about 6 inches in front of my third brake light on the roof of my truck. We mostly travel around Arizona South East and to Sonoma County, California. I was considering getting a MXT26 antenna for traveling, but we rarely travel with others. It sounds like the ghost antenna should be adequate for my needs. Thanks for this post. 

[WRUE951]

14 minutes ago, WRUQ357 said:

I have my ghost antenna about 6 inches in front of my third brake light on the roof of my truck. We mostly travel around Arizona South East and to Sonoma County, California. I was considering getting a MXT26 antenna for traveling, but we rarely travel with others. It sounds like the ghost antenna should be adequate for my needs. Thanks for this post. 

The Ghost antenna works well.  It lags when you get around trees hills and mountains...  Out in the open ,like what you describe, you really won't see a huge difference between the Ghost and the MXT26..  I like the stealth of the Ghost and often thought of getting one, having both for different scenarios.  

[Northcutt114]

On 10/4/2025 at 12:50 PM, WRUE951 said:

there is a huge difference between 'dead keying' types.. Most normal people if not all, will do the occasional dead key to satisfy themselves their radio is working by the repeater 'kerchunk'.  Then you have the 'rapid fire' dead keyers.  Those are the ass wipes that are doing it to create attentions for themselves..  I would rather hear an occaisional dead key over non stop radio checks,, and definatly would like to ****** those rapid fire dead keyers.   Use your imagination on the ***,  mines starts with 'M'

I was more speaking to how a repeater might stay open for a few moments when not receiving traffic and then close, as was @SteveShannon's question. Now if we're going to talk about repeater etiquette, that's an entirely different horse in need of further resurrection and battery.

 

[WRUE951]

37 minutes ago, Northcutt114 said:

I was more speaking to how a repeater might stay open for a few moments when not receiving traffic and then close, as was @SteveShannon's question. Now if we're going to talk about repeater etiquette, that's an entirely different horse in need of further resurrection and battery.

 

Gotcha..     The squelch tail is set by the repeater owner. Most set it up the tail for a few milliseconds which IMO is acceptable.  Some set up for a second or two which i cant stand.   

[LeoG]

Then you won't like my repeater.

[NCJeb]

Jumping in with both feet here: to second whats been said a few different ways, the “rules of propagation” we all learned different places don’t always apply. For example, sometimes here in the mountains of western NC, more power just means a warmer radio, with no seeming effective range increase. To illustrate, there are places I’ve found our local repeater works, but there is NOT a line of sight path directly to it (believe me, I’ve mapped it…). And yet, full scale on the S meter, 59 reports on radio checks. All I can figure is what I call a “backstop effect”: a ridge somewhere is oriented appropriately to literally reflect the signal to the repeater, and the repeater back to me, in some cases taking only 5W to do the trick too.

All that to say, yes, clean line of sight, or some other effect, radio is gonna do what radio is gonna do…and sometimes “good enough” still gets the message through. As a now SK elmer from my ham days said many times: on a scale of 1 to 10, that’ll do…

[WSEZ864]

"Knife-edge refraction"?

[WRYZ926]

14 minutes ago, WSEZ864 said:

"Knife-edge refraction"?

That definitely comes into play when there are obstacles between the radios

[NCJeb]

31 minutes ago, WSEZ864 said:

"Knife-edge refraction"?

I would say some probably, although testing one spot yesterday, the ridge beyond me (as opposed to between me and the repeater, which was still tall) dwindled down, and the signal faded too. Its far more complicated than anyone typically makes it out to be.

An Emergency Management instructor I had once used the Kansas vs Oz illustration: just because the book rules say it (Oz) doesn’t mean it plays out exactly like that in the real world (Kansas)…for better or worse in some cases. But in our realm of radio, at the end of the day, if you can reliably connect (repeaters or simplex) between point A and B, you may need less power than you think, which is of course the OPs entire point!

[AdmiralCochrane]

Knife edge refraction definitely explains some of the very unusual propagation in Washington DC

[wbjohnston]

I’m guessing these long range reports on VHF is likely ducting vs clear line of sight. Does occasionally occur on VHF.