A thorny repeater question...

[Guest MarkinCT]

OK, I don't want to start WW3 being new, but, I'm (slightly) confused and want to tap the brain trust here. I bought a pair of UV-5G plus radios and mostly monitor 95% of the time. I haven't gotten my license yet (another topic for another day) and understand I need to be licensed to use them. (Fair enough) although the channels are on the quite side here, there is a new, low power repeater I can clearly here about 4 miles from me. Yeah,  It sends out an identifier recording ever 10 minutes or so saying "For questions, please email the North Haven repeater at .......com" so I did, 3 times, no response. I've recently heard someone requesting a radio check and immediately a gruff voice barked "NO radio checks, get off my repeater!" Needless to say, the conversation turned quite colorful for the next 2 minutes with the owner stating it was HIS equipment and the request for radio check was being denied. Gees, no wonder he never responded to my friendly email. Bummer.

So where's the line in the sand? Yes, I understand that it's "his equipment" but does he "own" that channel too? I suppose I can just use any of the other channels but was happy to finally hear a repeater in my area that would be useful. Maybe this Christmas a few more folks will get GMRS radios in my area. I've been hanging out here for a bit now and appreciate mygmrs!

[marcspaz]

So... this is a touchy subject.  The radio waves are not reserved.  You have every right to transmit on that frequency and with whatever tone or code you want.  If that person's repeater does its job and re-transmits your signal... it's perfectly legal.  If the owner doesn't like it, they can change tones, channels, or turn it off when they aren't using it.

 

Then there is the community aspect, where it really doesn't do any good to cause a commotion on the air.  Also, some people are mean enough to go looking for you or other people they don't want using their system and cause problems in your real life... which I personally don't want to experience that.  Even if they break a law and end up in jail... who wants that mess in their life?

 

Then... my favorite... I have heard people pull that crap before and it's not even their repeater.  And unless you know the owner, its hard to know who's who.

 

Bottom line, I would either find the real owner, find another repeater, or if its important enough, put up your own repeater (which gets expensive to do it right).

[NCJeb]

28 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

Bottom line, I would either find the real owner, find another repeater, or if its important enough, put up your own repeater (which gets expensive to do it right).

I would add (because yes, your own repeater gets expensive in a big hurry!), see what kind of range you have simplex.

I realize the whole reason this site exists is a directory of repeaters, and quite a good one too! But, don't be afraid once you get the license to see what kind of range you can get out of your radios first, including with a relatively inexpensive antenna setup at home (cheap mag mount on a cookie sheet/pie plate is a good way to get started).

As I've noted on a few other threads, while I DO use our local repeater extensively (we're blessed to have an awesome local repeater owner), I also deliberately use simplex where I can, just to avoid using up repeater time, and to take things the whole county doesn't necessarily need clogging up airtime down to a little less range. All that to say, with just 5W and a good antenna (height is might, even 10 ft higher makes a world of difference!), I can cover easily a third of the local repeater footprint, and that on channels 1-7, where I'm not hogging a repeater pair nor a 50W channel neither!

Just because this bears saying in you case, please, sincerely, (and I don't believe you have) don't let this obvious bad apple spoil your perspective of repeater owners and radio operators. Are there "Sad HAM" types out there? Yes...just like the Karens across our whole society. I have met many a cantankerous radio user (GMRS and Ham both), but I also have met some delightful folks that have been a wealth of knowledge, camaraderie, and wisdom over the years, and I count many of them close friends today. Steer clear of the rotten ones, as @marcspaz has insightfully put, because there can be real world consequences. But I can promise from experience, not every repeater owner, GMRS operator, HAM operator, or any other service licensee are as bad as all this. Welcome to this wonderful world (and hobby) of radio!

[Guest MarkinCT]

17 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

So... this is a touchy subject.  The radio waves are not reserved.  You have every right to transmit on that frequency and with whatever tone or code you want.  If that person's repeater does its job and re-transmits your signal... it's perfectly legal.  If the owner doesn't like it, they can change tones, channels, or turn it off when they aren't using it.

 

Then there is the community aspect, where it really doesn't do any good to cause a commotion on the air.  Also, some people are mean enough to go looking for you or other people they don't want using their system and cause problems in your real life... which I personally don't want to experience that.  Even if they break a law and end up in jail... who wants that mess in their life?

 

Then... may favorite... I have heard people pull that crap before and it's not even their repeater.  And unless you know the owner, its hard to know who's who.

 

Bottom line, I would either find the real owner, find another repeater, or if its important enough, put up your own repeater (which gets expensive to do it right).

Hey Marc, you rock!

Just the wisdom I was looking for.  At 70yo, and a noobie, I'm NOT looking to stir the pot. It's just a shame that after months of scanning, a repeater go's up within reach, owned by Attila the Hun...

[GreggInFL]

8 hours ago, Guest MarkinCT said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Guest MarkinCT said:

OK, I don't want to start WW3 being new, but, I'm (slightly) confused and want to tap the brain trust here. I bought a pair of UV-5G plus radios and mostly monitor 95% of the time. I haven't gotten my license yet (another topic for another day) and understand I need to be licensed to use them. (Fair enough) although the channels are on the quite side here, there is a new, low power repeater I can clearly here about 4 miles from me. Yeah,  It sends out an identifier recording ever 10 minutes or so saying "For questions, please email the North Haven repeater at .......com" so I did, 3 times, no response. I've recently heard someone requesting a radio check and immediately a gruff voice barked "NO radio checks, get off my repeater!" Needless to say, the conversation turned quite colorful for the next 2 minutes with the owner stating it was HIS equipment and the request for radio check was being denied. Gees, no wonder he never responded to my friendly email. Bummer.

So where's the line in the sand? Yes, I understand that it's "his equipment" but does he "own" that channel too? I suppose I can just use any of the other channels but was happy to finally hear a repeater in my area that would be useful. Maybe this Christmas a few more folks will get GMRS radios in my area. I've been hanging out here for a bit now and appreciate mygmrs!

 If he wants the repeater to be private, why does he publish enough information for operators to use it? 

[WSKK363]

Just now, GreggInFL said:

 

 If he wants the repeater to be private, why does he publish enough information for operators to use it? 

The guy wants power. He's a pos is all. 

[GreggInFL]

Perhaps it's time to put up a competing repeater. 

[amaff]

22 hours ago, Guest MarkinCT said:

someone requesting a radio check and immediately a gruff voice barked "NO radio checks, get off my repeater!" 

"Thanks for that radio check, have a nice day!"

[LeoG]

Tell him to stop announcing the repeater every 10 minutes then.  Only needs to be every 15 minutes when it's in use.  Maybe he doesn't even know it's doing that announcement, maybe it's a 2nd hand repeater and that email is to the original owner.

[WRUE951]

No, he does not own the GMRS repeater Channel nor is he assigned any specific GMRS repeater channel by anyone, any group and including the FCC.  You have the right to talk and use any GMRS repeater channel you desire so long you follow GMRS rules.  Now as far as knowingly using his repeater after he as requested you not to, common practice is not to..  You can talk on that specific frequency so long as you don't interfere with other traffic..  If his repeater is open and picking up your conversion with someone not looped through his repeater, he has zero recourse.  He may not like you doing that but at the end of the day, he has zero control.  And don't worry about the FCC police he may threaten you with.  They don't exist, there is none and there never will be.    Have Fun!   

[WRHS218]

Not to turn this thread into a HAM bashing thread but I have run into the same behavior on 2m repeaters (yes I am licensed). I had a gentleman lecture me, and the person to whom I was talking, about proper HAM language. I had used the term "copy" after receiving a short and to the point message. He was so enraged he told us to stay off of the repeater (which he didn't own). I ignored him and asked the other person to give me a 10-21 and turned the radio off.

In your case he may own the repeater but, as others have stated, he doesn't own the frequency and GMRS repeaters are not coordinated like amateur repeaters. Some people just need to go outside and get a good breath of fresh air...

[WRUE951]

8 minutes ago, WRHS218 said:

Not to turn this thread into a HAM bashing thread but I have run into the same behavior on 2m repeaters (yes I am licensed). I had a gentleman lecture me, and the person to whom I was talking, about proper HAM language. I had used the term "copy" after receiving a short and to the point message. He was so enraged he told us to stay off of the repeater (which he didn't own). I ignored him and asked the other person to give me a 10-21 and turned the radio off.

In your case he may own the repeater but, as others have stated, he doesn't own the frequency and GMRS repeaters are not coordinated like amateur repeaters. Some people just need to go outside and get a good breath of fresh air...

Now, there is a difference between a GMRS frequency and repeater use and HAM frequencies and Repeater use.  HAM repeater frequencies are coordinated by volunteer organizations known as frequency coordinators, which are state-level groups or councils. These coordinators help reduce harmful interference by recommending frequency pairs to avoid conflicts with other amateur radio operations. While coordination is not legally required by the FCC, it is considered a best practice and a demonstration of good engineering and amateur radio ethics. The FCC's regulations, specifically Title 47 CFR, Part 97, define the role of a frequency coordinator but do not grant them legal authority to control or regulate repeater operations. Therefore, while the FCC sets the rules for amateur radio use, the actual assignment and management of repeater frequencies are handled by volunteer coordination groups. GMRS does not have anyone coordinating and managing its Repeater frequencies.  It's so to speak a 'free for all' in the GMRS world.  

[WSDE760]

There are certainly formal FCC regulations against interference.  I can't quote them but doubtless someone here can.  So, in the case of some alimentary outlet maliciously jamming a repeater or broadcasting music or some such, the FCC could actually take action in the unlikely event they were so inclined.

A repeater owner may change or not publish tones or simply turn off the repeater as many have stated.  That said, why wouldn't the very act of transmitting on a public frequency "Get off my repeater" not constitute interference? 

[OffRoaderX]

7 minutes ago, WSDE760 said:

the FCC could actually take action in the very very very very VERY unlikely and statistically negligible event they were so inclined.

Fixed that for you..

[WSDE760]

1 minute ago, OffRoaderX said:

Fixed that for you..

Truly 

[WRHS218]

1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

GMRS repeaters are not coordinated like amateur repeaters

Yep. I brushed against that lightly. The Jackwagon attitude isn't a part of the FCC regs for either service. Where ever you have people, be it on the internet or out there in public or on the airwaves you will find these type of people.

 

1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

Not to turn this thread into a HAM bashing thread

I failed. I shall crawl back beneath my rock now.

[LeoG]

27 minutes ago, WSDE760 said:

There are certainly formal FCC regulations against interference.  I can't quote them but doubtless someone here can.  So, in the case of some alimentary outlet maliciously jamming a repeater or broadcasting music or some such, the FCC could actually take action in the unlikely event they were so inclined.

A repeater owner may change or not publish tones or simply turn off the repeater as many have stated.  That said, why wouldn't the very act of transmitting on a public frequency "Get off my repeater" not constitute interference? 

Because he isn't telling you to vacate the frequency, just stop using his private property.  And interference is making the frequency unusable to other by means of jamming or interfering with the radio transmission itself.

As a repeater owner if you are going to use my equipment you can follow my rules on how I'd like it to be used.  If you don't want to follow them then technically you shouldn't be using it.  But people think that because it "the free airwaves" they have the "right" to use your personal equipment for their pleasure.  And while there is little you can do to stop them, respect on the airways is also something that should be followed.

Change channels, use another tone, set up your own repeater, use simplex.  Lots of other options, some costly, others not.

 

[SteveShannon]

33 minutes ago, WSDE760 said:

That said, why wouldn't the very act of transmitting on a public frequency "Get off my repeater" not constitute interference? 

Interesting perspective but the serious response is that unless the person who transmitted that did so intentionally while someone else was transmitting in an attempt to disrupt or prevent another person’s transmission I don’t think the FCC would consider it interference. 

[Guest MarkinCT]

15 minutes ago, LeoG said:

 

Change channels, use another tone, set up your own repeater, use simplex.  Lots of other options, some costly, others not.

 

LeoG, this is the path I'll most likely take, I was hoping a few would weigh in and that's why I've been hanging out in the background here for a few months now. I'm really thankful for all the input and advice. As soon as I get my license, I'm going to at least try a "radio check" at least once and see if I get the same treatment. Who knows, maybe I just heard him on a bad day,  the car died, fight with the Mrs, milk in his coffee was sour...... I have learned as some have mentioned that line of sight is everything. We live in a hilly heavily treed suburban neighborhood and by doing simple radio checks with the Mrs, I can barely talk simplex a mile to the center of our town but on the other hand can easily and clearly transmit 4 miles in the opposite direction. I've also discovered the online RF line of sight tool to help me discover high points in our town. Can't wait to get my license and really be able to explore. Again I want to thank everyone for being so helpful with their input. 

[WRUE951]

47 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Because he isn't telling you to vacate the frequency, just stop using his private property.  And interference is making the frequency unusable to other by means of jamming or interfering with the radio transmission itself.

As a repeater owner if you are going to use my equipment you can follow my rules on how I'd like it to be used.  If you don't want to follow them then technically you shouldn't be using it.  But people think that because it "the free airwaves" they have the "right" to use your personal equipment for their pleasure.  And while there is little you can do to stop them, respect on the airways is also something that should be followed.

Change channels, use another tone, set up your own repeater, use simplex.  Lots of other options, some costly, others not.

 

Technically, if you have trespassed someone from your property, i.e. kicking someone off your repeater, you have the right for civil litigation if they ignore your demands..   Now that could be interesting.  

[LeoG]

Is it virtual property?

[marcspaz]

I obviously don't know every law in every state, but I never heard of trespass for non-real property.  There is a reason its called 'real' estate.  

[SteveShannon]

42 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

I obviously don't know every law in every state, but I never heard of trespass for non-real property.  There is a reason its called 'real' estate.  

But a repeater is private property and subject to the protections that all property owners have, which are universally recognized within the U.S. but inconsistently enforced in practice:

https://www.cato.org/cato-handbook-policymakers/cato-handbook-policymakers-9th-edition-2022/property-rights-constitution

[nokones]

In California and Arizona, the trespass law states the entering real property or structure not open to the general public, and/or entering fenced property that is posted "No Trespassing" and refuse to leave by order of a peace officer is in violation of Trespass.

No where in the trespassing statutes of both States does it address any unauthorized use of a radio repeater station.

[LeoG]

Theft of services.