John Fogery can't help me. What the heck is CCR?

[STTScott]

I've seen some talk regarding CCR, which I haven't the foggiest notion what CCR is, what CCR is an acronym for, and why CCR may or may not be important to someone.

 

I Bing'd "CCR+broadcast radio," but I didn't have the ti e to wade thru 994,862 results. But I did discover there are very many peopke out there who think Fogerty is singing "there's a bathroom on the right" instead of "there's a bad moon on the rise."

[wayoverthere]

CCR = Cheap Chinese Radio.

 

in short, there's a lot of inconsistency in quality, a lot of counterfeits and fake certifications, a few decent ones, a lot of complete garbage, and sometimes no easy way to tell which a product is before you buy. 

 

one member (gman1971) has done some direct testing that showed just how bad some of them can be.  suffice to say, like many others you've found, he isn't a fan of them (prefers motorola).  if you take a look in his past posts, he's gone into some detail on his testing..

[STTScott]

CCR = Cheap Chinese Radio.

 

in short, there's a lot of inconsistency in quality, a lot of counterfeits and fake certifications, a few decent ones, a lot of complete garbage, and sometimes no easy way to tell which a product is before you buy. 

 

one member (gman1971) has done some direct testing that showed just how bad some of them can be.  suffice to say, like many others you've found, he isn't a fan of them (prefers motorola).  if you take a look in his past posts, he's gone into some detail on his testing..Thabks

Thanks for that clarification. And I get it. I'll just ask y'all a question tho: What, technical-wise and actual-userwise makes Cinese radios totally suck? Or is it a matter of Worth The Affordable Money Chinese vs. really suck CCR?

 

Case in point: I was looking last weekend for a decent 50w mobile to serve as a base station. Something that I could plug straight into power pack ... like plugging into a cigaette lighter. I looked at a few non-Chinese brands, but the problem was all the wires coming out the back were just wires. As if I knew what to do with that.. 

 

But my Chinese mobile -- which I bought brand new for a good bit way under $400-450 -+ had a clue. It seems to me the Chinese company actually asked people like me WTF, what would make a noob like me buy your radio and not get screwed, on price or performance?

 

So I jumped in and ordered a BTech 59-UV 50X2.  So there ya go. So ...  how totally stupid was I from a technical point/s ONLY? And if I really got hornswaggled by the Beofeng Corp., how do I fix it across the band?

[gman1971]

Well, I was on the same boat once. At least you've only spent 450 bucks, I have spent (wasted) a lot more than x10 times that amount... until I realized I was wasting my money.

 

For under 400, for GMRS, a decent mobile for that cost is a Motorola XPR 5550e UHF. The programming cable is like 20-30 bucks from eBay, the legacy CPS to program the radio can be found on eBay as well for cheap. Total cost + radio will equal the one you just got, except the XPR5550e has the best receiver in its class, the best audio... and the display is awesome too. 

 

Yes, the XPR5550e is a Part 90 only radio... etc... but like I said, a Part 90 radio certification is far more strict than any Part 95 toy. There is a post here in MyGmrs that states that Part 90 radios can be discussed, talked about, b/c the FCC has never filed a single case, complain, etc... in regard to Part 90 radios being used in the GMRS service.

 

So, how much of a mistake it was for 400 dollars? Well, based on my measurements average, it means you have a receiver that has around -20 to -40 dB less Effective Sensitivity (not absolute) compared to an XPR5550e... How much is a 20 dB difference in range? (the million dollar question) Here where I live is the difference vs <1 mile vs >15 mile range without the use of repeaters, that is from a base to a mobile. 

 

At this point I would cut my losses, sell it for however much you can, and get a Motorola XPR5550e... 

 

G.

 

 

Thanks for that clarification. And I get it. I'll just ask y'all a question tho: What, technical-wise and actual-userwise makes Cinese radios totally suck? Or is it a matter of Worth The Affordable Money Chinese vs. really suck CCR?

 

Case in point: I was looking last weekend for a decent 50w mobile to serve as a base station. Something that I could plug straight into power pack ... like plugging into a cigaette lighter. I looked at a few non-Chinese brands, but the problem was all the wires coming out the back were just wires. As if I knew what to do with that.. 

 

But my Chinese mobile -- which I bought brand new for a good bit way under $400-450 -+ had a clue. It seems to me the Chinese company actually asked people like me WTF, what would make a noob like me buy your radio and not get screwed, on price or performance?

 

So I jumped in and ordered a BTech 59-UV 50X2.  So there ya go. So ...  how totally stupid was I from a technical point/s ONLY? And if I really got hornswaggled by the Beofeng Corp., how do I fix it across the band?

[wayoverthere]

Thanks for that clarification. And I get it. I'll just ask y'all a question tho: What, technical-wise and actual-userwise makes Cinese radios totally suck? Or is it a matter of Worth The Affordable Money Chinese vs. really suck CCR?

 

Case in point: I was looking last weekend for a decent 50w mobile to serve as a base station. Something that I could plug straight into power pack ... like plugging into a cigaette lighter. I looked at a few non-Chinese brands, but the problem was all the wires coming out the back were just wires. As if I knew what to do with that.. 

 

But my Chinese mobile -- which I bought brand new for a good bit way under $400-450 -+ had a clue. It seems to me the Chinese company actually asked people like me WTF, what would make a noob like me buy your radio and not get screwed, on price or performance?

 

So I jumped in and ordered a BTech 59-UV 50X2.  So there ya go. So ...  how totally stupid was I from a technical point/s ONLY? And if I really got hornswaggled by the Beofeng Corp., how do I fix it across the band?

I'll give the low end manufacturers credit on one point; they DO do a pretty good job of marketing toward new users.  Wouxun also seems to be pretty willing to work with the resellers on the feature set/programming, as evidenced by their part 95 certified offerings.

 

that said, as gman covered, the receivers are where they fall short to varying degrees, either in sensitivity (picking up signals at all), selectivity (picking the signal you want out of the background noise) or both. i have the gmrs 50x1, and while i don't have any major complaints (other than how they locked it down for gmrs), you don't know what you aren't hearing, so to speak. the transmit side works solid so far, even with less than perfect antenna placement.  there's also the factor that the uv50x2 isn't part 90 or 95 certified, so not actually legal to use for gmrs.

 

all in all,while my personal experience hasn't been noticeably bad, i did jump in without enough research, and now know i could've done better; there's lots of lightly used part 90 stuff out there for the same money or not a ton more that will be a lot better.  the fact that you should still be within the return window for the BTech may be an opportunity to try again (if you choose to) and only maybe being out the cost of shipping.

[SUPERG900]

Don't let the naysayers get ya.

 

CCR's pack more value per dollar than anything - and the reason these radios are inexpensive is because there *is* a market for them - not because that's the best the Chinese can do. People tend to forget name brands like Motorola, Icom, etc - all *made in China*. Moving an HT a mere 6" one way or another is going to make way more difference in performance than any supposed performance gain you might see from a commercial radio.

 

On the BTECH mobile - that should only go for $199 tops. If you paid more....oof

 

OTOH - used commercial radios *can* be a good value. Just don't overpay for them - there's way too many clowns on eBay asking way too much for them. Of course, since this is GMRS - I can only recommend radios that are certified for use on GMRS, there is a need to research the FCC-ID on used commercial radios to see if they're approved. The CCR's that are approved for GMRS are well known, though. 

[Lscott]

OTOH - used commercial radios *can* be a good value. Just don't overpay for them - there's way too many clowns on eBay asking way too much for them. 

I couldn’t agree more.

[gman1971]

Its pointless arguing with this kind of posts, b/c they lack any basis on reality, and they are usually posted by the likes of ... trolls, looking to sow doubt, and stir trouble...

 

But I'll bite...

 

First off, Motorola high end radios are not "Made in China", it seems as if you've never owned one, and it figures... they are "Made in Malaysia."

 

Also, by the same argument of where things are made, and just to pick an example: iPhones are made in China, but so are a lot of other pieces of crap no-brand phones too...  and even though iPhones aren't my thing, I would still pick an iPhone over the no-brand POS phone... if the iPhone was too expensive new, and iPhones where, again, my thing, then I would simply buy a used iPhone... which is still leaps and bounds better than the cheap garbage phone... well, the same thing applies to radios. Most people like to walk around with a fancy S20s, or whatever the latest fancy phone happens to be... but then we purchase these pieces of garbage radios?

 

Using the word "supposed" means its your opinion, and everyone has one. With that said, after measuring many of these radios with an ISO-tee, an industry standard test to diagnose receiver problems, the observed average desense in all those CCR radios was found to be around 15 dBm when compared to high end commercial grade radios, like the XPR5550e... A 15dBm difference is the equivalent of running, roughly, x16 times more power on the transmitter... but it is safe to assume that you have no idea what I am talking about, b/c you just called me a "naysayer" for sharing the results from my ISO-tee tests, and made claims devoid of any basis except for the sake of just discrediting others by sowing doubts. Not sure what to make out of that...

 

If you need moving your HT 6" around chances are you have a piece of garbage. I don't need to move any of my many XPR7550e radios to listen to base, b/c they just receive, they work, all the time... I don't like having my radios cut in and out when I am working either... but I guess that is par for the course with those CCRs... and trust me, I remember well... I still own a lot of them...

 

The legal argument to scare beginners into buying garbage radios, or the "beware of overpaying" for used commercial gear scare tactic, also geared towards scaring beginners into buying garbage radios, both are just misleading at best, won't go into what worst could be... which begs the question, are you getting paid by those companies to advertise their junk here? Using Part 90 radios on GMRS has never been a problem, it isn't a problem and it will never be a problem, b/c there isn't a shred of evidence the FCC has ever fined or taken any action based solely on the Part 90 radios, however, using pieces of garbage Part 15 CCRs, a scanner, with a PTT, actions have been taken, see Rugged Radios FCC letter... Part 90 equipment is certified to a stricter standard than the Part 95 toys you so much claim to be comparable to used commercial gear. Now, If you think you're overpaying, or getting ripped off, then you can always ask around, I did, and others have asked me, people can give you a good estimate on how much something is worth, but there is also the "completed items" option on eBay, which gives you an idea of how much something is going for... etc.

 

Also, based on how much the OP's paid, it seems that he got ripped off for a 199 CCR.So, as you can see, you can get ripped off no matter what, buying new or used, CCR or used commercial gear. I've even seen BF-888s being sold for 199 bucks a unit... 

 

G.

 

Don't let the naysayers get ya.

 

CCR's pack more value per dollar than anything - and the reason these radios are inexpensive is because there *is* a market for them - not because that's the best the Chinese can do. People tend to forget name brands like Motorola, Icom, etc - all *made in China*. Moving an HT a mere 6" one way or another is going to make way more difference in performance than any supposed performance gain you might see from a commercial radio.

 

On the BTECH mobile - that should only go for $199 tops. If you paid more....oof

 

OTOH - used commercial radios *can* be a good value. Just don't overpay for them - there's way too many clowns on eBay asking way too much for them. Of course, since this is GMRS - I can only recommend radios that are certified for use on GMRS, there is a need to research the FCC-ID on used commercial radios to see if they're approved. The CCR's that are approved for GMRS are well known, though. 

[berkinet]

...If you need moving your HT 6" around chances are you have a piece of garbage. I don't need to move any of my many XPR7550e radios to listen to base...

 

You touch on an interesting, and IMHO too often overlooked point here. People should buy equipment that is suited for their application.  If you run a kid's day camp in a park and everyone is always within 1/2 mile, then the dirt cheap Amazon CCR special of the day may be perfect. They will cover 100% of your terrain, they can get lost, crushed, have lemonade spilled on them, etc with no worries.  On the other hand, if you are organizing a search & rescue team you would have to be bat shit crazy to get anything other than high quality Part-90 equipment.

 

Of course, the world is not binary, and there are other applications that require a lot more thought. If you are getting into UHF (GMRS or ham) as a general hobby, and do not know exactly where you will be everyday, or whom you will contact, or how (simplex or repeater) you are going to make contact, you have to look carefully at your budget and priorities before making a decision. And, of course, it is not as simple as Baofeng-888 vs Moto XPR5550e. There are high end CCRS and low end pro equipment, etc, etc.

 

To me the key point in all of this is to learn how radios work and what makes one different from an other. That knowledge, coupled with clarity on your needs will help you make the right decision.  And, building on that, the right response to "I am new to GMRS, what radio should I get?", is none, until you understand the differences and how you will use it.

[IronArcher]

2nding the point of buy to your needs.

Yes, I believe the commercial radios have better receivers. And yes, I believe they will perform better, especially on the fringes.

I also believe there is a point to the CCRs.

I have a pair of the aforementioned BF888S radios. They got me into GMRS.

Yes, they are cheap, and perform poorly.

But they work absolutely perfectly for the job I got them for.

I need to do a bunch of work up in a dying Ash tree. I wanted instant, reliable communication with my wife in case something went wrong.

I paid $26 for the pair, including stand up chargers.

I have dropped one from 25’ up. It still works, is crystal clear, and I can hit a repeater from my house... full quieting in the tree

[Lscott]

The point about over paying for commercial quality Part 90/95 radios, yes some do in fact have both FCC certifications, should not be poo-pooed, especially on places like eBay. 

 

Personally I've purchased somewhere around a dozen such radios, hand held models - all Kenwood, to add to my collection. I've seen the exact same models selling for a good price to nearly 4 times more in the same condition. Some are listed as non functional or damaged but the seller still wants way more that other sellers that will guarantee their radio will work or you can send it back for a refund. Go figure. 

 

I see overpriced radios, functional or not, being relisted on eBay over and over again. Just for fun I keep them on my watch list to see how long they last before the seller gives up or gets reasonable with the price. Some of them have been relisting for almost a year at the same over priced point!

 

A few times I've sent the seller a private message through eBay offering what I think is a good price. I've gotten some very good deals this way. I try this even if the seller doesn't have the radio listed for bids or best offers, just a fixed price. A few took my offer since they just wanted to get rid of the radio and not looking to make huge profits off the sale. Most just say no or ignore you. Then you wait to see how long it takes for reality to set in and they drop the price on their own. 8-)

[gman1971]

Well, it certainly isn't binary and I agree with that statement. Radios for different situations is all good and well if we are talking say 10, or 20 bucks for a CCR, however, once you start getting into the 200, 300+ bucks range.... then you're no longer talking about a CCR price point... you are now adding an extra zero onto the price tag for having roughly the same receiver performance, but a lot of useless features like a dot matrix screen, 100000000 contacts, 100000000000 channels... etc.... So, while the XPR5550e is arguably a top of the line radio, at $300, used, that is well within the same price range of a lot of the overpriced CCR stuff, and a used 5550e is cheaper than an brand new Anytone AT-578, too, which clocks in at ~400 greens new, a radio which I own as well, and is a piece of garbage, for many reasons beyond having an inferior receiver, the radio freezes up when trying to use it to do actual work, hence why I am trying to get rid of it (selling it, btw)... (haha, how good of a salesman am I?, telling the potential buyers the things I am trying to sell are pieces of garbage) LOL...  oh well... which further proves my point that these things have horrible resale value.

 

Aside from the 5550e, there are other pretty darn good radios to chose from, as measured, and for a lot less than a 5550e, like for example the XPR4550, another mobile, which can be purchased, used, for ~100 bucks on eBay. Then there is the XPR6550 portable, which can also be purchased for ~100 bucks, maybe at the 100 pricepoint it will have some screen scratches, etc... but those don't affect performance.... as a matter of fact, I am selling a couple of those in excellent condition, for 140 ea. shipped to CONUS here in myGmrs... the prog cable is cheap, and the legacy CPS is cheap on eBay too... Once you have the CPS and the prog cable you are good to go on anything Motorola XPR... Then there is the XTL P25/FM radios too, those are pretty darn good as well... The XPR6350, a 6550 with no display, perfect for GMRS, which can be found for well under <100 bucks, as I've seen some go for 60 on the bay... The superhet receiver with a properly tuned front end on those XPR Gen1 TRBO radios blows away, as measured, anything made in China that I've tested to date, even the best of the CCR pack, the AT-578UV loses in effective sensitivity vs. the XPR6550 portable... 

 

Its real simple: For every 3dB that you lose in effective sensitivity at the Receiver, you need to double the Transmitter power for the signal to be copied at the same level by the Receiver. In an ideal CCR world we all be running 200kW walkie talkies, with receivers having an effective sensitivity measured in Kilovolts.... unfortunately, this is not an ideal CCR world, and in the real world we can't run 200kW walkie talkies... more TX power is also bad b/c of RF exposure... etc.

 

I understand the urge to buy cheap radios, I've made up every possible excuse to buy them, from the dropping in the ocean, to the getting stolen... about several thousand of excuses have been made... in the end, they were just that, excuses to avoid doing what I am doing now.

 

G.

 

You touch on an interesting, and IMHO too often overlooked point here. People should buy equipment that is suited for their application.  If you run a kid's day camp in a park and everyone is always within 1/2 mile, then the dirt cheap Amazon CCR special of the day may be perfect. They will cover 100% of your terrain, they can get lost, crushed, have lemonade spilled on them, etc with no worries.  On the other hand, if you are organizing a search & rescue team you would have to be bat shit crazy to get anything other than high quality Part-90 equipment.

 

Of course, the world is not binary, and there are other applications that require a lot more thought. If you are getting into UHF (GMRS or ham) as a general hobby, and do not know exactly where you will be everyday, or whom you will contact, or how (simplex or repeater) you are going to make contact, you have to look carefully at your budget and priorities before making a decision. And, of course, it is not as simple as Baofeng-888 vs Moto XPR5550e. There are high end CCRS and low end pro equipment, etc, etc.

 

To me the key point in all of this is to learn how radios work and what makes one different from an other. That knowledge, coupled with clarity on your needs will help you make the right decision.  And, building on that, the right response to "I am new to GMRS, what radio should I get?", is none, until you understand the differences and how you will use it.

[n4gix]

As a current example, I just bought a "new, open stock" XPR5550 (not the 'e' version) for $300. I've had the CPS for several years but did have to buy a programming cable for it. The cable from "BlueMaxers" was ~$30. 

 

Now I can't find the programming cable for my darn XPR7550!

[wayoverthere]

2nding the point of buy to your needs..

i will agree with that point as well.  there's a wide variety of quality levels.

 

that said, i see mobile as jumping into things a little deeper than just a HT, so more of a situation where if you can get "good" instead of "subpar",  for not much more, it's worth considering.

[gman1971]

Welcome to the Motorolian Fleet... heh.

 

G.

 

As a current example, I just bought a "new, open stock" XPR5550 (not the 'e' version) for $300. I've had the CPS for several years but did have to buy a programming cable for it. The cable from "BlueMaxers" was ~$30. 

 

Now I can't find the programming cable for my darn XPR7550!

[SUPERG900]

Well, it certainly isn't binary and I agree with that statement. Radios for different situations is all good and well if we are talking say 10, or 20 bucks for a CCR, however, once you start getting into the 200, 300+ bucks range.... then you're no longer talking about a CCR price point... you are now adding an extra zero onto the price tag for having roughly the same receiver performance, but a lot of useless features like a dot matrix screen, 100000000 contacts, 100000000000 channels... etc.... So, while the XPR5550e is arguably a top of the line radio, at $300, used, that is well within the same price range of a lot of the overpriced CCR stuff, and a used 5550e is cheaper than an brand new Anytone AT-578, too, which clocks in at ~400 greens new, a radio which I own as well, and is a piece of garbage, for many reasons beyond having an inferior receiver, the radio freezes up when trying to use it to do actual work, hence why I am trying to get rid of it (selling it, btw)... (haha, how good of a salesman am I?, telling the potential buyers the things I am trying to sell are pieces of garbage) LOL...  oh well... which further proves my point that these things have horrible resale value.

 

Aside from the 5550e, there are other pretty darn good radios to chose from, as measured, and for a lot less than a 5550e, like for example the XPR4550, another mobile, which can be purchased, used, for ~100 bucks on eBay. Then there is the XPR6550 portable, which can also be purchased for ~100 bucks, maybe at the 100 pricepoint it will have some screen scratches, etc... but those don't affect performance.... as a matter of fact, I am selling a couple of those in excellent condition, for 140 ea. shipped to CONUS here in myGmrs... the prog cable is cheap, and the legacy CPS is cheap on eBay too... Once you have the CPS and the prog cable you are good to go on anything Motorola XPR... Then there is the XTL P25/FM radios too, those are pretty darn good as well... The XPR6350, a 6550 with no display, perfect for GMRS, which can be found for well under <100 bucks, as I've seen some go for 60 on the bay... The superhet receiver with a properly tuned front end on those XPR Gen1 TRBO radios blows away, as measured, anything made in China that I've tested to date, even the best of the CCR pack, the AT-578UV loses in effective sensitivity vs. the XPR6550 portable... 

 

Its real simple: For every 3dB that you lose in effective sensitivity at the Receiver, you need to double the Transmitter power for the signal to be copied at the same level by the Receiver. In an ideal CCR world we all be running 200kW walkie talkies, with receivers having an effective sensitivity measured in Kilovolts.... unfortunately, this is not an ideal CCR world, and in the real world we can't run 200kW walkie talkies... more TX power is also bad b/c of RF exposure... etc.

 

I understand the urge to buy cheap radios, I've made up every possible excuse to buy them, from the dropping in the ocean, to the getting stolen... about several thousand of excuses have been made... in the end, they were just that, excuses to avoid doing what I am doing now.

 

G.

 

Ok..

 

10 to 20 bucks for a *new* CCR? That's conveniently a lowball figure here... If you find a new GMRS radio for $10 dollars, let us know.

 

And $140 for an XPR6500? And I gotta pay extra for cables and CPS? Do I have to get a new battery too? What's the total cost here? Is it certified?

 

$300 for a used XPR5500? (Get a new Icom!) Is it certified as well?

 

Is there a real difference if something is made in Malaysia, or China? Or maybe the fact that they aren't made in the USA?.

 

The point is to be rational here. If one has a need for a commercial radio - certainly go ahead and, recommend, and get one. They're great items if they can be had.

 

But hammering on about inexpensive chinese radios as if these were responsible for all the world's evil gets old real fast. It doesn't do the new user here any good and doesn't help them any

in order to reasonably weigh their needs against their desires and their budget. All they see is someone trashing chinese radios and promoting used commercial radios. It doesn't take too much to point out, though that the trash-er invariably happens to own some of these commercial radios, and wouldn't you know it, they're for sale too!

 

2cts

[gman1971]

I'll reiterate, your posts are devoid of any logical explanation, only emotional responses, nothing to refute my data, just logical fallacies trying to discredit me, ad hominem, et. all... to sow doubt.

 

So, lets begin:

 

First off, what about the BF-888s? its a UHF radio that costs ~10 bucks, and its a Part 90 certified, its the truest CCR of all CCRs.... how do I know? because I own more than 10 of them... the last ones I purchased, a couple years back, were purchased for 9.95 a pop from Amazon, Prime shipped to my house...  now, how many do you own, again?

 

Yes, two of my XPR6550 are for sale for 140, shipped to your door with insurance and tracking, just read the "for sale section" on myGMRS. It comes with antenna and a battery, and the battery has plenty of service life, as stated by the IMPRES charger,... so no, you won't need a new battery, where the heck do you get all these nonsensical arguments? I am beginning to think you are a victim of your own disinformation campaign, it happens, if you repeat the lie too many times, you end up believing it... Then, what is this other nonsensical argument about the CPS and cable? Again, more scare tactics, so what? you have to buy a cable and a CPS? Dude, you are starting to sound like these people who think everything should be free... I guess with such attitude nothing less should be expected from you...  last time I checked the CPS and the prog cable are a one time purchase, after that you don't have to buy the CPS and prog cable again, so for first time Motorola users, an additional cost is 40-50 bucks... and again, so what? You don't have to buy the radios I have up for sale. There are radios on eBay that are going for less than what I am selling mine... but you wouldn't know. Still coming ahead vs the 199 CCR garbage mobile. Except now you have the CPS and the cable so are free to buy other XPR radios and program them just fine...  also, prices are N E G O T I A B L E.

 

Yes, I also got several XPR5550e for under 350 bucks, in both bands, UHF and VHF... And certified for what? The radios pass all the service monitor tests I've performed on them, and they beat everything else I have... what is the question here?

 

Is there any particular reason why I need buy an ICOM instead of a Motorola? Do you have any factual ISO-tee data that I could contrasts vs. the ISO-tee data that I've compiled from the Motorola, and other, radios I own? I am waiting... If you don't then, please, stop recommending me brands, or radios without having the slightest clue about how good they really are. I know how good the Motorolas are b/c I own every single XPR series e model made to date, and I've bench tested them all with an ISO-tee, under real world conditions, not in a lab. Coincidentally, I also own a large collection of high end Vertex Standard radios, and a few Kenwoods, etc... those are great radios too, but the Motorola XPR e series edged them all... so, given the XPR e radios can be purchased for around the same price as the top performers of other LMR manufacturers, I'll go for the better performing radio, thank you very much... regardless of where it was made, or if it has a couple of scratches on the screen, or any other excuse not based on factual data, like needing a new battery... really? dude?

 

And with that said, what it the matter with where something was made, is it just you? The Motorola radios are not "Made in China" as you blatantly claimed, and now twisting the argument?, again? There is a BIG difference between Malaysia and China, they are different countries, with vastly different labor laws, among other things. But the fact remains, the Motorola radios are designed in the USA, with proprietary stuff that CCRs don't have (fact, as measured) A radio not being made in the USA is not a valid logical reason to just go and buy substandard cheap equipment. (regardless of where it was made) If something coming from China was decent, I would probably buy it, just like the iPhone analogy...  heck, we don't even need to speculate here... all my EVX-5300 radios are all "Made in China", "Designed in Japan" (as clearly stated in the radio serial # label)... so? they are dirt cheap on eBay... yet they still handily beat the living crap of CCRs costing twice their price...  Its not where its made, dude, its how its designed...  Motorola radios are better designed than all CCRs I've tested to date, and can be purchased used for the same or less than a new CCRs. I think its a slam dunk argument right there... except the fear of being used?... or abused? which is just that, fear. There are a lot of protections in place to prevent sellers from dumping you a brick... use them, much the same way if you buy a damaged CCR you can return it... eBay works very much the same way, and most people in the forums will honor the returns, provided you're not a total tool about it...

 

Tell me, since when is posting factual data obtained from ISO-tee measurements defined as "hammering"? You need to use the appropriate terms here, an inexpensive radio is a used EVX-531 for 60 bucks (which is designed in Japan, and made in China), a CCR for 60 bucks is an overpriced cheap radio made and designed in China too. 

 

What are you talking about dude, are you okay? what is this world's evil nonsense? Do you have anything valuable to offer rather than just critique, and sow doubt about every other constructive comment I've made? I am not trashing China radios for the sake of trashing China radios, that is you, who is attempting to discredit me by applying every literary logical fallacy ever devised... A guy like you just talks talks talks and doesn't have a single darn number to put their mouth where their money is. Refute my data with factual data.... and while my data might not be the most accurate, my equipment might not be best grade equipment... the tests were still performed, and the data was collected, compiled and conclusions were drawn from those experiments.

 

As for your radios going up for sale, well, good for you...  and good for me, too, I need to make room for more pesky XPR7550e, b/c you know, I don't like having to move my HTs 6" just to get good reception... Which coincidentally, reminds me of the TV we had at my father's house back a long long time ago, when every so often my father would ask me to get up and "wiggle" the antennas just to get better reception...  hah.

 

Cheers, dude, and enjoy your CCR rage... hopefully by the time you realize it, you won't be several thousand dollars in the hole like I was (well, still am)

 

G.

 

 

Ok..

 

10 to 20 bucks for a *new* CCR? That's conveniently a lowball figure here... If you find a new GMRS radio for $10 dollars, let us know.

And $140 for an XPR6500? And I gotta pay extra for cables and CPS? Do I have to get a new battery too? What's the total cost here? Is it certified?

 

$300 for a used XPR5500? (Get a new Icom!) Is it certified as well?

 

Is there a real difference if something is made in Malaysia, or China? Or maybe the fact that they aren't made in the USA?.

 

The point is to be rational here. If one has a need for a commercial radio - certainly go ahead and, recommend, and get one. They're great items if they can be had.

 

But hammering on about inexpensive chinese radios as if these were responsible for all the world's evil gets old real fast. It doesn't do the new user here any good and doesn't help them any

in order to reasonably weigh their needs against their desires and their budget. All they see is someone trashing chinese radios and promoting used commercial radios. It doesn't take too much to point out, though that the trash-er invariably happens to own some of these commercial radios, and wouldn't you know it, they're for sale too!

 

2cts

[SUPERG900]

I'll reiterate, your posts are devoid of any logical explanation, only emotional responses, nothing to refute my data, just logical fallacies trying to discredit me, ad hominem, et. all... to sow doubt.

 

So, lets begin:

 

First off, what about the BF-888s? its a UHF radio that costs ~10 bucks, and its a Part 90 certified, its the truest CCR of all CCRs.... how do I know? because I own more than 10 of them... the last ones I purchased, a couple years back, were purchased for 9.95 a pop from Amazon, Prime shipped to my house...  now, how many do you own, again?

 

Yes, two of my XPR6550 are for sale for 140, shipped to your door with insurance and tracking, just read the "for sale section" on myGMRS. It comes with antenna and a battery, and the battery has plenty of service life, as stated by the IMPRES charger,... so no, you won't need a new battery, where the heck do you get all these nonsensical arguments? I am beginning to think you are a victim of your own disinformation campaign, it happens, if you repeat the lie too many times, you end up believing it... Then, what is this other nonsensical argument about the CPS and cable? Again, more scare tactics, so what? you have to buy a cable and a CPS? Dude, you are starting to sound like these people who think everything should be free... I guess with such attitude nothing less should be expected from you...  last time I checked the CPS and the prog cable are a one time purchase, after that you don't have to buy the CPS and prog cable again, so for first time Motorola users, an additional cost is 40-50 bucks... and again, so what? You don't have to buy the radios I have up for sale. There are radios on eBay that are going for less than what I am selling mine... but you wouldn't know. Still coming ahead vs the 199 CCR garbage mobile. Except now you have the CPS and the cable so are free to buy other XPR radios and program them just fine...  also, prices are N E G O T I A B L E.

 

Yes, I also got several XPR5550e for under 350 bucks, in both bands, UHF and VHF... And certified for what? The radios pass all the service monitor tests I've performed on them, and they beat everything else I have... what is the question here?

 

Is there any particular reason why I need buy an ICOM instead of a Motorola? Do you have any factual ISO-tee data that I could contrasts vs. the ISO-tee data that I've compiled from the Motorola, and other, radios I own? I am waiting... If you don't then, please, stop recommending me brands, or radios without having the slightest clue about how good they really are. I know how good the Motorolas are b/c I own every single XPR series e model made to date, and I've bench tested them all with an ISO-tee, under real world conditions, not in a lab. Coincidentally, I also own a large collection of high end Vertex Standard radios, and a few Kenwoods, etc... those are great radios too, but the Motorola XPR e series edged them all... so, given the XPR e radios can be purchased for around the same price as the top performers of other LMR manufacturers, I'll go for the better performing radio, thank you very much... regardless of where it was made, or if it has a couple of scratches on the screen, or any other excuse not based on factual data, like needing a new battery... really? dude?

 

And with that said, what it the matter with where something was made, is it just you? The Motorola radios are not "Made in China" as you blatantly claimed, and now twisting the argument?, again? There is a BIG difference between Malaysia and China, they are different countries, with vastly different labor laws, among other things. But the fact remains, the Motorola radios are designed in the USA, with proprietary stuff that CCRs don't have (fact, as measured) A radio not being made in the USA is not a valid logical reason to just go and buy substandard cheap equipment. (regardless of where it was made) If something coming from China was decent, I would probably buy it, just like the iPhone analogy...  heck, we don't even need to speculate here... all my EVX-5300 radios are all "Made in China", "Designed in Japan" (as clearly stated in the radio serial # label)... so? they are dirt cheap on eBay... yet they still handily beat the living crap of CCRs costing twice their price...  Its not where its made, dude, its how its designed...  Motorola radios are better designed than all CCRs I've tested to date, and can be purchased used for the same or less than a new CCRs. I think its a slam dunk argument right there... except the fear of being used?... or abused? which is just that, fear. There are a lot of protections in place to prevent sellers from dumping you a brick... use them, much the same way if you buy a damaged CCR you can return it... eBay works very much the same way, and most people in the forums will honor the returns, provided you're not a total tool about it...

 

Tell me, since when is posting factual data obtained from ISO-tee measurements defined as "hammering"? You need to use the appropriate terms here, an inexpensive radio is a used EVX-531 for 60 bucks (which is designed in Japan, and made in China), a CCR for 60 bucks is an overpriced cheap radio made and designed in China too. 

 

What are you talking about dude, are you okay? what is this world's evil nonsense? Do you have anything valuable to offer rather than just critique, and sow doubt about every other constructive comment I've made? I am not trashing China radios for the sake of trashing China radios, that is you, who is attempting to discredit me by applying every literary logical fallacy ever devised... A guy like you just talks talks talks and doesn't have a single darn number to put their mouth where their money is. Refute my data with factual data.... and while my data might not be the most accurate, my equipment might not be best grade equipment... the tests were still performed, and the data was collected, compiled and conclusions were drawn from those experiments.

 

As for your radios going up for sale, well, good for you...  and good for me, too, I need to make room for more pesky XPR7550e, b/c you know, I don't like having to move my HTs 6" just to get good reception... Which coincidentally, reminds me of the TV we had at my father's house back a long long time ago, when every so often my father would ask me to get up and "wiggle" the antennas just to get better reception...  hah.

 

Cheers, dude, and enjoy your CCR rage... hopefully by the time you realize it, you won't be several thousand dollars in the hole like I was (well, still am)

 

G.

 

For starters - you immediately dismiss my posts as "your posts are devoid of any logical explanation, only emotional responses, nothing to refute my data, just logical fallacies trying to discredit me, ad hominem, et. all... to sow doubt."

 

That's some heavy bloviation, dude - especially in light of the fact that all the negativity and doubt concerning radios is coming from you. And the rest of your post isn't exactly a model of logic either...so it's hard to see where you're coming from. You can blow out all the numbers you want, but unless you're posting published comparos (of GMRS certified radios) from a respected lab along with their empirical observations - you're all hat and no cattle. Providence matters. What is left is are our subjective evaluations.

 

I'm not interested in part 90 radios for GMRS use unless they're GMRS certified as well. That's a really big distinction. Any cherry picking the cheapest of the cheap radios as an example, which unless certified for GMRS is just a moot point. There are plenty of great radios out there - and no, I do not have a financial interest in selling them.

[gman1971]

Because they are, dude... they really are. 

 

And here we go again, you're not refuting my data, you're just going around it in circles, just refute the data, please. Explain how you performed the tests, I've explained how I performed my tests... ISO-tee... Can you or can you not? 

 

Also, what is this nonsense about a "reputable lab" ... Dude, its real simple: just perform the ISO-tee test on your own radios yourself, its an industry standard procedure designed to diagnose receiver problems, and Its very simple to do... you can even make your own directional coupler with a hacksaw in under 10 minutes...  but then you'll have to buy some equipment... which is not free... ugh... there might be a problem there... its not free.

 

Can you please explain what is illogical about stating that a 15 dBm (average) advantage in effective sensitivity is better? tell me? I am pretty certain the results of my tests are easily repeatable... if you're willing to do the tests, that is.

 

So, what does it matter if they are coming from me, or someone else? It so happens that I've measured the data, using an industry standard procedure, but you haven't... or have you? tell me... maybe you have data I don't have... or are you trying to make this personal? Should I be concerned?

 

Last, but not least, it is not of my concern what your interests are, really, and contrary to what you might believe, or think, there is zero personal reasons here. Its not my money, but I've determined that I won't sit and let misleading claims fly by... The measurements I've taken have demonstrated to the best of my ability that cheap radios designed in China (not just made in China) are, on average, inferior to most used high end LMR radios found on eBay priced at, or about the same range. I could record myself performing these tests on video just to prove my point, if that is needed to prove my point, but not because its personal, as you seem to think it is, its because its the truth.

 

I think we are done here, I'll reiterate, hopefully by the time you realize it, you aren't several thousands of dollars in the hole like I was/am...

 

G

 

EDIT:

This document explains very well why these CCRs, including the ones with superhets, are inferior to the LMR radios. http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/622/handouts/The%20Preselector%20Filter.pdf. 

 

 

For starters - you immediately dismiss my posts as "your posts are devoid of any logical explanation, only emotional responses, nothing to refute my data, just logical fallacies trying to discredit me, ad hominem, et. all... to sow doubt."

 

That's some heavy bloviation, dude - especially in light of the fact that all the negativity and doubt concerning radios is coming from you. And the rest of your post isn't exactly a model of logic either...so it's hard to see where you're coming from. You can blow out all the numbers you want, but unless you're posting published comparos (of GMRS certified radios) from a respected lab along with their empirical observations - you're all hat and no cattle. Providence matters. What is left is are our subjective evaluations.

I'm not interested in part 90 radios for GMRS use unless they're GMRS certified as well. That's a really big distinction. Any cherry picking the cheapest of the cheap radios as an example, which unless certified for GMRS is just a moot point. There are plenty of great radios out there - and no, I do not have a financial interest in selling them.

[IronArcher]

Not sure if it’s a iPhone thing, or I haven’t found my way around here very well yet,

Can someone post a link to the “for sale” area?

[berkinet]

Uh... has this topic been discussed beyond death yet?

[Lscott]

 

Explain how you performed the tests, I've explained how I performed my tests... ISO-tee... Can you or can you not? 

 

Also, what is this nonsense about a "reputable lab" ... Dude, its real simple: just perform the ISO-tee test on your own radios yourself, its an industry standard procedure designed to diagnose receiver problems, and Its very simple to do... you can even make your own directional coupler with a hacksaw in under 10 minutes...  but then you'll have to buy some equipment... which is not free... ugh... there might be a problem there... its not free.

 

Just for my info can you provide some details on how you performed the tests? For a home made iso-tee connector they have to be calibrated, from some sources I've  read, before each use.

 

I found a nice write up on how one guy did his testing along with photos for those who might like to know how its done. Also how somebody made their own iso-tee connector. I'll admit it's done with a crappy "UHF" type connector but it's just the general idea.

 

http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/desense-testing/desense-testing.html

 

https://urgentcomm.com/2007/09/01/every-toolbox-needs-one-of-these/

[Lscott]

This is a link for a commercial RF sampler, "ISO-Tee", connector.

 

https://www.rfparts.com/rfa4059a.html

[SUPERG900]

Great, a link to a 404 error... That pretty much the story here in a nutshell.

[Lscott]

Great, a link to a 404 error... That pretty much the story here in a nutshell.

I just tried all three links just now and they all work. Perhaps you need to try again or another browser.