Grounding / Bonding

[Doctnj]

I understand the difference in the terms just to get that out right off.  

This is probably deep in the weeds but maybe we can have a good conversation.

I feel I have my base station and equipment taken care of pretty well.  But I think what was perplexing was the difference in opinion of "shack" bonding/grounding.  There is (code) written so there doesnt have to be opinion right? Not exactly.  

 

The one idea Ive heard and believe me when I say I have read and watched a ton of vids.  I personally built half of my house, took 4 years in evenings.  But even though I live in the country and didnt have to pull permits, I did every thing to code to include hiring a master electrician to inspect my rough outs.  So again it was interesting to see different ideas about this topic.  The one "idea" I am fairly closely following is interrupting the electrical ground at the outlet supply the radio equipment uses and instead tying it in to the bonding / grounding specific to the radio instead of allowing the ground to have to also travel back to breaker box then again travel to electrical ground.  It isnt necessary.  So to that degree I think I have it the way I want it but,,,,

Here is my question.  Do you use a surge protector, or conditioner between outlet and radio equip?  Not lightning related but regular supply anomalies.  

And if so will they still work with out the ground feed?  

 

[mbrun]

I understand the difference in the terms just to get that out right off.  
This is probably deep in the weeds but maybe we can have a good conversation.
I feel I have my base station and equipment taken care of pretty well.  But I think what was perplexing was the difference in opinion of "shack" bonding/grounding.  There is (code) written so there doesnt have to be opinion right? Not exactly.  
 
The one idea Ive heard and believe me when I say I have read and watched a ton of vids.  I personally built half of my house, took 4 years in evenings.  But even though I live in the country and didnt have to pull permits, I did every thing to code to include hiring a master electrician to inspect my rough outs.  So again it was interesting to see different ideas about this topic.  The one "idea" I am fairly closely following is interrupting the electrical ground at the outlet supply the radio equipment uses and instead tying it in to the bonding / grounding specific to the radio instead of allowing the ground to have to also travel back to breaker box then again travel to electrical ground.  It isnt necessary.  So to that degree I think I have it the way I want it but,,,,
Here is my question.  Do you use a surge protector, or conditioner between outlet and radio equip?  Not lightning related but regular supply anomalies.  
And if so will they still work with out the ground feed?  
 

Yes, I use surge suppression between the wall outlet and radio equipment, but I do not bypass the electrical ground.

Surge suppressors may have two forms of surge suppression, common mode and differential mode. If both are present in your suppressor and it is not grounded, only the differential portion of the suppressor does any work. Therefore you would have some protection, but not the full protection afforded by the device.

One option that may deal with your scenario is to install TVSS in your panel so you can shunt the surges that originate from places other than the branch circuit in question. At the panel you have the ground readily available.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[Doctnj]

15 hours ago, mbrun said:

 

Yes, I use surge suppression between the wall outlet and radio equipment, but I do not bypass the electrical ground.

Surge suppressors may have two forms of surge suppression, common mode and differential mode. If both are present in your suppressor and it is not grounded, only the differential portion of the suppressor does any work. Therefore you would have some protection, but not the full protection afforded by the device.

One option that may deal with your scenario is to install TVSS in your panel so you can shunt the surges that originate from places other than the branch circuit in question. At the panel you have the ground readily available.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

 

The reason I was kicking this horse is exemplified in this video.  Manufacturers taking part in bad info.  You can jump to 4:00 for meat and potatoes. 

  

 

[BoxCar]

There is a difference between grounding/bonding the case of electronic equipment and what you originally proposed as lifting the ground from the power to bond it. Metal or conductive cases do shield from RFI generated within the enclosure affecting other devices and it is recommended the cases be connected, in parallel, to a proper ground.

[mbrun]

The reason I was kicking this horse is exemplified in this video.  Manufacturers taking part in bad info.  You can jump to 4:00 for meat and potatoes. 
  
 

There is nothing improper, in-appropriate about the presence of an external grounding terminal on a piece of equipment. The scope of the rules of the NEC do not regulate how a piece of electronic equipment is manufactured. The NEC covers things of an electrical nature and how they installed when they are installed as a permanent fixed part of the building.

If the US most products feature a UL listing which indicates they have been demonstrated to comply with safety standards associated with their listing. On such standard would be one that indicates products that are not double insulated (according to UL definition) must have a power plug feature a grounding conductor. And for your safety, you should use it.

Both NEC and UL standard separate things, but all about safety of life and property. Neither effectively cares about nor deals the performance of your system, outside the scope of safety.

Complex electronics (including all variants communication systems including radio) can and do have special grounding and bonding needs in order to achieve highest performance out of your system. While challenging at times to get right, none of them necessitate violating the NEC regarding grounding. The external ground lug on a piece of equipment is not intended to replace the use of the third-wire connection on the power cable, but to supplement it for additional reasons.

The TIA for example has supplemental standards (not NEC) for the addition of completely separate grounding systems in a commercial building for the exclusive use by the communications equipment that is distributed though-out the building. This system is sized correctly and connected to the building’s grounding system at one point only and in a fully code compliant way. It is used to reduce voltage potentials between distributed equipment to levels that ensure that equipment performs optimally and is not adversely affected by other equipment within the building.

In a radio shack you have need to minimize voltage differences and ground loops between equipment at RF frequencies. When you have that problem, you will never get rid of them by just plugging in the safety ground on your equipment. You need a more specialized low-impedance bonding system to these.

A properly implemented grounding system will never violate codes nor best practices for safety of life or property. A well implemented purpose-built supplemental system will yield the best possible performance from your equipment.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[OldRadioGuy]

I really wonder how much earth grounding means at UHF frequencies like 460Mhz.  The wavelength is nominally 25".  On a smith chart you can see than an open looks like a short at 1/4 wavelength away.  Basically, impedances invert every 1/4 wave which is half way around the chart. (This is real too)   So what does a ground look like 3.632 or and random number of  wavelengths away????  It's just a bunch of wire hanging out there.  Probably doesn't matter what it's connected to.

Of course, a ground wire is not a transmission line either.  It's just wire.  But it certainly has a velocity factor or 1 or less.  So same rules apply.

I'm not convinced that grounding is a big deal when the ground wire is several random wavelengths long.  At 80 meters it's a no brainer.   A 6' ground wire looks like a pretty good ground.  Of course our HT's work pretty well without much of any external ground at all.  For 60Hz power purposes the ground may serve a function.  You don't want your radio "bouncing around" at 60Hz or maybe even 750KHz from a nearby AM radio station.  But I think the outlet ground will take care of that.

Between pieces of equipment it is of course good to have a solid power ground so those currents don't use the coax as a return.

Vince

 

 

[n4gix]

Radials and bonded grounding are two unrelated concepts.