Less than 5 WATT Tx to Repeater 20 miles away (GMRS, line of sight possible)

[LucidObscurity]

My prepper brother in law sent me a cheap Chinese HT for emergency comms. While a few more of these would be OK for "walkie talkie" functionality, they're crap for reaching out to the local community, even with slightly upgraded "whip" antenna.

I have applied and been granted access to a local repeater up on a mountain peak near my home and there are locations on my property with line of sight. Will a well tuned + placed antenna be enough to Tx to this repeater at this wattage? Also, I plan to get a better HT to hook up, but not sure I want to jump into a mobile with power supply just yet. I primarily want to make sure I have something which can be emergency powered and reach out to a repeater on UHF (GMRS) 20 miles away.

Also I've seen some of these "slim jim" antenna which are rolled up and can be hung off trees. What real world performance is seen with these designs on low wattage?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[wayoverthere]

While are there intricacies that can get in the way (cable loss, ht putting out less power than advertised, etc), it's definitely possible.

My local repeaters (gmrs and 70cm) are around the 30 mile mark, and I can get in just fine on a 5 watt ht (varied brands) through a mag mounted antenna (Midland mount, browning 5/8 over 5/8 wave whip).

[gortex2]

It all depends on equipment. First you say CCR well thats issue #1. Issue 2 has to do with the repeater and what it really is. A professionally installed repeater at a tower site with commercial grade equipment should have no issues with distance, however as was stated its also line of site. If its on a mountain your good to go, if its a garage based home repeater not so much. You need to determine what the repeater really is. I have a few that have no issue with 25-30 miles on a part 90 HT.

 

[mbrun]

My prepper brother in law sent me a cheap Chinese HT for emergency comms. While a few more of these would be OK for "walkie talkie" functionality, they're crap for reaching out to the local community, even with slightly upgraded "whip" antenna.
I have applied and been granted access to a local repeater up on a mountain peak near my home and there are locations on my property with line of sight. Will a well tuned + placed antenna be enough to Tx to this repeater at this wattage? Also, I plan to get a better HT to hook up, but not sure I want to jump into a mobile with power supply just yet. I primarily want to make sure I have something which can be emergency powered and reach out to a repeater on UHF (GMRS) 20 miles away.
Also I've seen some of these "slim jim" antenna which are rolled up and can be hung off trees. What real world performance is seen with these designs on low wattage?
Thanks in advance for any advice!

Welcome to myGMRS.

There is no way to know for certain what will work in your case without trying it. Anything other then that is speculation.

What I can tell you for certain is that if your antenna and the repeater antenna can see one another (e.g. no obstacles at all between them) 5 watts will likely get you more than 50 miles. If there are any obstacles between them they distance will be reduced commensurate with the degree and placement of obstacles.

Case in point. I have a repeater 50 miles due north of me. There are very few obstacles between me and the repeater antenna. I can hear the repeater well on my HT at all times and I can open it at times from my HT. However with the HT and rubber duck I cannot hold a conversation. Signal is enough to open it, but audio is so low that only on rare occasions can I be understood. On the other hand, if I hook that same HT up to my base antenna, 5-watts is enough to hold on a conversation with minimal noise.

I own and have used the roll-up J-Pole antennas too. They are much better than a rubber duck on the HT. They are not as effective as a high-gain base antenna placed 40’ or more in the air.

I recommend starting with a base antenna and hooking it up to your HT radio to see what you can achieve first at low elevations. Then raise it higher as necessary to suit your range needs.

Hope that helps.

Again, Welcome.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[bobthetj03]

I've been experimenting with this very thing. I have a repeater about 25 miles away across the lake that I can hear conversations but can't transmit with my HT and the attached antenna. I put a 5 db gain Browning on the roof of my house with a 2x3' sheet of metal for a ground plane and a mag mount, and hooked it up to my HT producing about 3 watts and can have a normal conversation with the mentioned repeater. 

[MichaelLAX]

The three most important factors in your query are: Antenna, Antenna and Antenna!

I would suggest you invest in a properly mounted GMRS antenna installed on your roof and I'll bet dollars to donuts you will hit that repeater and have a blast communicating with the other users of that repeater!

[LucidObscurity]

22 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

While are there intricacies that can get in the way (cable loss, ht putting out less power than advertised, etc), it's definitely possible.

My local repeaters (gmrs and 70cm) are around the 30 mile mark, and I can get in just fine on a 5 watt ht (varied brands) through a mag mounted antenna (Midland mount, browning 5/8 over 5/8 wave whip).

That sounds promising. Is that on your vehicle or base mounted?

Thanks @wayoverthere

[LucidObscurity]

20 hours ago, kb2ztx said:

It all depends on equipment. First you say CCR well thats issue #1. Issue 2 has to do with the repeater and what it really is. A professionally installed repeater at a tower site with commercial grade equipment should have no issues with distance, however as was stated its also line of site. If its on a mountain your good to go, if its a garage based home repeater not so much. You need to determine what the repeater really is. I have a few that have no issue with 25-30 miles on a part 90 HT.

 

Thanks, yeah...we've all got to ween ourselves off the CCP teat...it was a gift, but I am looking for suggestions on HTs. Please feel free to let me know your favorites!

As for the repeater, it's 4K-ish ft. above me and is not some guy with an HT hanging off a pole over his house

[LucidObscurity]

19 hours ago, mbrun said:

Welcome to myGMRS.

There is no way to know for certain what will work in your case without trying it. Anything other then that is speculation.

What I can tell you for certain is that if your antenna and the repeater antenna can see one another (e.g. no obstacles at all between them) 5 watts will likely get you more than 50 miles. If there are any obstacles between them they distance will be reduced commensurate with the degree and placement of obstacles.

Case in point. I have a repeater 50 miles due north of me. There are very few obstacles between me and the repeater antenna. I can hear the repeater well on my HT at all times and I can open it at times from my HT. However with the HT and rubber duck I cannot hold a conversation. Signal is enough to open it, but audio is so low that only on rare occasions can I be understood. On the other hand, if I hook that same HT up to my base antenna, 5-watts is enough to hold on a conversation with minimal noise.

I own and have used the roll-up J-Pole antennas too. They are much better than a rubber duck on the HT. They are not as effective as a high-gain base antenna placed 40’ or more in the air.

I recommend starting with a base antenna and hooking it up to your HT radio to see what you can achieve first at low elevations. Then raise it higher as necessary to suit your range needs.

Hope that helps.

Again, Welcome.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Thanks @mbrun!

How would you compare your favorite "roll up" (and hang from a tree or pole) antenna vs your favorite base mount (with similar height) at similar/weighted price ranges?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me!

[djxs]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:48 AM, mbrun said:

There is no way to know for certain what will work in your case without trying it. Anything other then that is speculation.

 

I agree with @mbrun. Sometimes you might have to just go for it and try it out. I hope all works well for you. Keep us posted. 

[wayoverthere]

14 hours ago, LucidObscurity said:

That sounds promising. Is that on your vehicle or base mounted?

Thanks @wayoverthere

That's mag mounted on my truck, while the repeaters are around 4000 ft up in the foothills.

[mbrun]

Thanks [mention=3409]mbrun[/mention]!
How would you compare your favorite "roll up" (and hang from a tree or pole) antenna vs your favorite base mount (with similar height) at similar/weighted price ranges?
Thanks again for taking the time to help me!

Funny that you ask that question.

Last fall I did some subjective comparisons of 4 antennas set up in my driveway. All antennas merely secured to poles attached atop a 6-foot step-ladder, with the middle of each antenna somewhere around 12-14 feet AGL. I then communicated through a repeater for which I am known to be on the fringe.

The antennas compared included an Ed-Fong GMRS roll-up, a self-made GMRS 1/4-wave ground plane, a Midland mobile antenna and a Comet 712. I had zero problem hearing the repeater which always (and to this day) constantly varies from near full-quieting to occasional complete loss of signal. The persons on the repeater definitely said that they had a consistently lower-noise signal (closer to full quieting) when I used the Comet and found it difficult to reliably tell any difference between the other antennas because the noise as pretty consistent between them.

So while this was purely subjective, it did at least affirm that the high-gain Comet improved signal to the repeater in a perceptible way.

Given that I used the roll-up with some success hanging from a ceiling hook for nearly a year, the antenna will remain in my arsenal for use out the garage, on camping trips, and as a backup.

Regards.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[LucidObscurity]

On 8/8/2021 at 5:43 AM, mbrun said:

Funny that you ask that question.

Last fall I did some subjective comparisons of 4 antennas set up in my driveway. All antennas merely secured to poles attached atop a 6-foot step-ladder, with the middle of each antenna somewhere around 12-14 feet AGL. I then communicated through a repeater for which I am known to be on the fringe.

The antennas compared included an Ed-Fong GMRS roll-up, a self-made GMRS 1/4-wave ground plane, a Midland mobile antenna and a Comet 712. I had zero problem hearing the repeater which always (and to this day) constantly varies from near full-quieting to occasional complete loss of signal. The persons on the repeater definitely said that they had a consistently lower-noise signal (closer to full quieting) when I used the Comet and found it difficult to reliably tell any difference between the other antennas because the noise as pretty consistent between them.

So while this was purely subjective, it did at least affirm that the high-gain Comet improved signal to the repeater in a perceptible way.

Given that I used the roll-up with some success hanging from a ceiling hook for nearly a year, the antenna will remain in my arsenal for use out the garage, on camping trips, and as a backup.

Regards.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Thanks! That's helpful.

I think I'll email Dr. Fong and give one of those a try first as I'll want to get a roll-up for those same reasons at some point anyway.

If that works then I might hold off on a base until we move from CA to TX next year as I don't know what my situation will be there in terms of repeaters.

Anyone have any recommendations for a HAM HT which will be used primarily for GMRS? Preferably made somewhere other than china.

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, LucidObscurity said:

Anyone have any recommendations for a HAM HT which will be used primarily for GMRS? Preferably made somewhere other than china.

I'll see if I can find the thread, but I seem to remember a couple good lists around of dual certified radios, off the top of my head I think Kenwood is the best bet there, both for mobiles or handhelds, Motorola may have some too (some of the brand enthusiasts can say better than I can on those). If shopping ebay, you can try searching FCC IDs; note that search engines tend to turn up fcc.io, which isn't the actual FCC and has some glitches in their data. https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm is the authoritative source. You can also search for 90 and 95a grants, and the listings will usually (always?) have the operating ranges.

If you are okay with the grey area of part 90 only, there are a few more options.

Here is one list on radio reference: https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/part-95-gmrs-radio-list.275040/

[WyoJoe]

1 hour ago, LucidObscurity said:

If that works then I might hold off on a base until we move from CA to TX next year as I don't know what my situation will be there in terms of repeaters.

Anyone have any recommendations for a HAM HT which will be used primarily for GMRS? Preferably made somewhere other than china.

Well, you can rest assured you won't be able to hit Santiago Peak from Texas!

I would not recommend a ham HT for GMRS, primarily because it wouldn't be type-accepted, and most are made in China anyway. I'd recommend either sticking with a dedicated GMRS HT, or going with a repurposed UHF business band radio that's been programmed for GMRS, the latter of which may be used for GMRS by following the old rules regarding acceptance. Unfortunately, most of the dedicated GMRS HTs are also made in China, but those made by Wouxon seem to be more highly regarded than those made by Baofeng, etc. The most likely way to find a radio made anywhere other than China would be to go with a repurposed Kenwood, Vertex, or Mororola UHF radio. There are many threads on these forums regarding these radios.

[BoxCar]

6 hours ago, LucidObscurity said:

Thanks! That's helpful.

I think I'll email Dr. Fong and give one of those a try first as I'll want to get a roll-up for those same reasons at some point anyway.

If that works then I might hold off on a base until we move from CA to TX next year as I don't know what my situation will be there in terms of repeaters.

Anyone have any recommendations for a HAM HT which will be used primarily for GMRS? Preferably made somewhere other than china.

 

4 hours ago, WyoJoe said:

Well, you can rest assured you won't be able to hit Santiago Peak from Texas!

I would not recommend a ham HT for GMRS, primarily because it wouldn't be type-accepted, and most are made in China anyway. I'd recommend either sticking with a dedicated GMRS HT, or going with a repurposed UHF business band radio that's been programmed for GMRS, the latter of which may be used for GMRS by following the old rules regarding acceptance. Unfortunately, most of the dedicated GMRS HTs are also made in China, but those made by Wouxon seem to be more highly regarded than those made by Baofeng, etc. The most likely way to find a radio made anywhere other than China would be to go with a repurposed Kenwood, Vertex, or Mororola UHF radio. There are many threads on these forums regarding these radios.

The choices for HTs not manufactured in China are slim at the lower end. I hold both a ham and GMRS license and run a Yeasu FT-4XR for a HT. The HT can be unlocked from the front panel to enable an expanded frequency range that will include GMRS. The FT-4XR and FT-65 are both built in China but are Japanese designs and specifications. Higher up on the list are ICOM units, built in Japan. Kenwood HTs are also Japanese and good quality. I haven't looked into these but I believe they can also be stretched to cover GMRS. It really depends on what your goals are. If you plan to go ham, the Technician level course and test is easy. I recommend you go ahead and get the Tech level license as you will find amateur 2 meter and 440 repeaters are quite plentiful. The drawback is that the license is for the individual and not family. 

When it comes time to upgrade to a mobile, the choices become much greater. I have both a Chinese manufactured BaoFeng and the Japanese ICOM. I'mcurrently using the ICOM as a base unit running off a Chinese 30 amp power supply. The ICOM is stock, but it can be modified easily to increase the frequency range for GMRS/MURS coverage. The BaoFeng, a BTECH UV-25X2, came with a frequency range covering both amateur and GMRS/FRS/MURS.

[MichaelLAX]

23 hours ago, LucidObscurity said:

Anyone have any recommendations for a HAM HT which will be used primarily for GMRS? Preferably made somewhere other than china.

Well it’s not an HT and it’s made in China, but for $99 retail (even less with a PAPA Systems membership discount at Let’s Get Ready [ask for Bob Yuan]) I have flipped for the Anytone AT-779UV a/k/a Radioddity DB-20G

It fits in the palm of my hand

It uses a “cigarette lighter” plug for 12v DC

it outputs about 18 watts

I swap it from the car to the home shack;

With my rooftop Comet tribander, it hits repeaters as well or better than my Yaesu FT-857d on 2 meters and 70 cms. 

it easily can be programmed (by keyboard or computer) to have multiple GMRS repeaters with different tones ((and it comes with a USB programming cable);

i hit two keys on the mic and it is scanning for action on all my favorite repeaters and simplex frequencies!

watch Randy Notarubicon’s review here: