Fixed station - what does that mean to FCC?

[UncleYoda]

I've read the wording including the meaningless circular definition in Part 95.  There is a lot that seems confusing, maybe even contradictory, about what the regulation writers mean.   I can at least tell that a fixed station is something different from a base station.  But can't grasp what they are referring to.  They should give practical examples but they don't.  This affects any purchase I may decide to make for a mobile with more power and/or an antenna with higher gain so I don't want to buy more than I can use as a dual-use mobile and base station.

[Sshannon]

One type of fixed station would be a telemetry station, under a grandfathered license. 

[wayoverthere]

With the definition in 95.303 (the "other fixed stations only" part, I picture it as an rf link to tie two repeaters together. A base, on the other hand, might talk to mobile.or.portable users.

 

[KAF6045]

26 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

With the definition in 95.303 (the "other fixed stations only" part, I picture it as an rf link to tie two repeaters together. A base, on the other hand, might talk to mobile.or.portable users.

 

Most confusingly -- a base is NOT permitted to access repeaters.

Quote

§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.

The GMRS is allotted 30 channels - 16 main channels and 14 interstitial channels. GMRS stations may transmit on any of the channels as indicated below.

(a) 462 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater, base and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000, and 462.7250 MHz.

(b) 462 MHz interstitial channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable and base stations may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5625, 462.5875, 462.6125, 462.6375, 462.6625, 462.6875, and 462.7125 MHz.

(c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

(d) 467 MHz interstitial channels. Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.

Note that "base" stations are only mentioned for the 462MHz main and interstitial -- that means simplex operation only. I do not consider the PTT activation of a repeater to be a "control station" -- to me a control station is one that can command the repeater to shutdown, or even change PL tones -- activities the repeater owner needs to do if the repeater should malfunction, or has some malicious person violating regulations via the repeater, and is not physically present at the repeater to perform such operations.

 

[UncleYoda]

2 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

Most confusingly -- a base is NOT permitted to access repeaters.

Note that "base" stations are only mentioned for the 462MHz main and interstitial -- that means simplex operation only. I do not consider the PTT activation of a repeater to be a "control station" -- to me a control station is one that can command the repeater to shutdown, or even change PL tones -- activities the repeater owner needs to do if the repeater should malfunction, or has some malicious person violating regulations via the repeater, and is not physically present at the repeater to perform such operations.

 

That was the other big issue I had.  I was going to leave it for another thread but it is related.  I've been back and forth on these two issues.   I wouldn't like it but I could live with the 15W limit if my base was considered a fixed station.   But then I figured out that fixed was something different, so that was not an issue (unless or until I figure out what a fixed station means so I know if it applies).  But that leaves me with the even bigger limitation of not being able to use a base station for transmitting through repeaters.  I don't want to get a mobile rig just for the car because I'm not driving much anymore.  So both of these are concerns I'd like to resolve.  Does just the fact that base station isn't specified as allowed mean that it's not?  Seems odd to me that people writing regulations would rely on the omission of a use as the criteria for preventing its use.  They could and should say explicitly what is not allowed.

[UncleYoda]

3 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

... I picture it as ...

 

But that's just it.  It should not be left for us "to picture" or figure out or guess at their meaning.  It's their responsibility to make it clear so everyone knows.

[UncleYoda]

9 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

... I do not consider the PTT activation of a repeater to be a "control station" -- to me a control station is one that can command the repeater to shutdown, or even change PL tones -- activities the repeater owner needs to do ...

 

That is correct as I believe I've read it stated that way in the regs and I think that was covered in the ham test questions I studied years ago.   Just using the repeater for transmitting doesn't make you a control station.  EDIT: Control station is a different issue (not a concern to me currently) and I'd like to keep this focused on what a fixed station is.

Edited November 12, 2022 by UncleYoda
add clarification

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, UncleYoda said:

But that's just it.  It should not be left for us "to picture" or figure out or guess at their meaning.  It's their responsibility to make it clear so everyone knows.

That, 100% agreed.

Reading the definition of a control station almost sounds like what we'd commonly think of as a base

[KAF6045]

16 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

That was the other big issue I had.  I was going to leave it for another thread but it is related.  I've been back and forth on these two issues.   I wouldn't like it but I could live with the 15W limit if my base was considered a fixed station.   But then I figured out that fixed was something different, so that was not an issue (unless or until I figure out what a fixed station means so I know if it applies).  But that leaves me with the even bigger limitation of not being able to use a base station for transmitting through repeaters.  I don't want to get a mobile rig just for the car because I'm not driving much anymore.  So both of these are concerns I'd like to resolve.  Does just the fact that base station isn't specified as allowed mean that it's not?  Seems odd to me that people writing regulations would rely on the omission of a use as the criteria for preventing its use.  They could and should say explicitly what is not allowed.

In the old days -- like 1997 when I got my GMRS license... Base stations couldn't even talk to another base station (besides having only two of the 8 main frequencies assigned).

You have to look at the original GMRS intent: family or small business (the latter are grandfathered, but no new business uses are being licensed). In the case of the "family" -- think a moderately large farm. The base station would be in the farm house, while the family working the fields are using HTs or mobiles. Even a 640 acre farm is only 1x1mile -- and being a farm is likely flat enough that even a 2W HT could go corner to corner (1.4miles).

Now... the tricky configuration: a repeater WITH microphone and speaker, located at the farm house. It would receive on the 467MHz frequencies, but only transmit on the 462MHz. This would qualify as a base station (think of it as a Dispatch operator, sending directions to scattered family members) when using the microphone/speaker, yet be a repeater for really wide spread family.

Given the limited number of /shared/ frequencies in GMRS, and the prohibition on digital data (except for low power HTs sending location data on SIMPLEX frequencies) I don't think there are many "fixed stations" in GMRS -- unless part of a grandfathered business license. I think of fixed stations as things like telemetry or relays (not repeaters), possibly using DTMF tones to send/receive commands. "Fixed" stations don't "talk" to general public -- they use directional antennas (YAGI, dish...) aimed at another fixed station.

[Radioguy7268]

Go look at FCC Part 90 rules for Station Class Codes. That's where you find the definition for some of the terms that the FCC seems to like using for GMRS without defining them:

FB= Fixed Base using a single Simplex frequency for both transmit and receive. In GMRS this would operate on the lower 462.xxx side.

FB2 = Fixed Base using duplex frequencies (1 to listen, 1 to transmit) more often called a Repeater. FB4 = Shared (community) Repeater with multiple user groups.  FB6 = Private Carrier repeater (airtime for rent)  FB8 = exclusive (protected area) license for Trunked system.

FX1 = Fixed Station - transmits on the repeater's uplink (ie: 467.xxx MHz) from a stationary location. Folks often call that a Base station, but it's not. A base transmits on the lower side of a frequency pair. People in the industry also call an FX1 a Control Station.

MO = Mobile.  Mobile can transmit on either the low side (simplex) or the high side (simplex or duplex). As the name implies, mobiles can move around, and they can be either hand held portables, or vehicle mounted mobile radios.

And yes, the FCC should define all that in the GMRS Part 95 rules. They seem to be playing fast & loose.

[UncleYoda]

KAF6045, I'm used to control stations and repeaters being treated separately from base stations (like in HAM).  The rules are different in some cases too.

Radioguy7268, thanks but unless Part 95 refers to those Part 90 definitions it would not be good to assume they are used the same.  I did check Part 97 because that is what I'm most familiar with, but fixed station and base station were not even mentioned (assuming my search function worked).

It looks like fixed station is probably not much of a concern from what I can discern (all mine will be mobile, portable or base).  But not using a base station for repeaters kills my main interest and makes my club membership worthless.  I'll have a good pair of walkie-talkies but that's about all.

[wrci350]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:23 PM, KAF6045 said:

Most confusingly -- a base is NOT permitted to access repeaters.

Note that "base" stations are only mentioned for the 462MHz main and interstitial -- that means simplex operation only. I do not consider the PTT activation of a repeater to be a "control station" -- to me a control station is one that can command the repeater to shutdown, or even change PL tones -- activities the repeater owner needs to do if the repeater should malfunction, or has some malicious person violating regulations via the repeater, and is not physically present at the repeater to perform such operations.

 

It really doesn't matter what "you consider".  Part 95 is clear:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95#p-95.303(Control station)

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

The distinction between a "base station" and a "control station" (in 95e) is that "base stations" are simplex, and a "control station" uses a repeater to talk to other stations.  Note that the definition says MAY also be used.  That means, "you are allowed to".  It does not mean, "you HAVE to".

So using what most people think of as a "GMRS base station" (mobile radio with a power supply and a rooftop antenna) to access repeaters is perfectly legal under Part 95.

Oh, and fixed stations talk to other fixed stations:

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

Your GMRS "base station" is not a fixed station.

[wrci350]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:57 PM, UncleYoda said:

KAF6045, I'm used to control stations and repeaters being treated separately from base stations (like in HAM).  The rules are different in some cases too.

Radioguy7268, thanks but unless Part 95 refers to those Part 90 definitions it would not be good to assume they are used the same.  I did check Part 97 because that is what I'm most familiar with, but fixed station and base station were not even mentioned (assuming my search function worked).

It looks like fixed station is probably not much of a concern from what I can discern (all mine will be mobile, portable or base).  But not using a base station for repeaters kills my main interest and makes my club membership worthless.  I'll have a good pair of walkie-talkies but that's about all.

@UncleYoda GMRS is Part 95.  Parts 90 and 97 don't come into play, so don't worry about them.

If you buy a 20, 25, or 50 watt GMRS radio, set it on a table in your house, hook it to an antenna on the roof, and power it with a power supply, you are free to use it at full power on GMRS repeaters.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong.

[UncleYoda]

4 hours ago, wrci350 said:

It really doesn't matter what "you consider".  Part 95 is clear:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95#p-95.303(Control station)

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

The distinction between a "base station" and a "control station" (in 95e) is that "base stations" are simplex, and a "control station" uses a repeater to talk to other stations.  Note that the definition says MAY also be used.  That means, "you are allowed to".  It does not mean, "you HAVE to".

So using what most people think of as a "GMRS base station" (mobile radio with a power supply and a rooftop antenna) to access repeaters is perfectly legal under Part 95.

Oh, and fixed stations talk to other fixed stations:

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

Your GMRS "base station" is not a fixed station.

I don't know of anywhere the GMRS rules say base stations are allowed only simplex.  Although uncommon, it is possible to have separate TX and RX frequencies even when not using a repeater.  The issue with base stations is they aren't listed as one of the types that are allowed to use the 467 MHz main channels.  It comes down to whether that omission is a prohibition.  I would expect a clear statement like, "Base stations are not permitted to transmit on these frequencies."  But you never know how things can be interpreted.

And what makes a station a control station is it is controlling something, typically a repeater's functions.  Since I don't have a repeater, control stations are not an issue for me.  And that lame circular definition that says fixed stations talk to other fixed stations does not tell us what makes one a fixed station.  But I've mostly come to the conclusion, even though I don't know what it is exactly, that it won't apply to my use.

[UncleYoda]

3 hours ago, wrci350 said:

@UncleYoda GMRS is Part 95.  Parts 90 and 97 don't come into play, so don't worry about them.

If you buy a 20, 25, or 50 watt GMRS radio, set it on a table in your house, hook it to an antenna on the roof, and power it with a power supply, you are free to use it at full power on GMRS repeaters.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong.

I know it's Part 95.  The point of looking at other services in both cases was just to possibly understand it better.  But that can also cause misinterpretations too due to service differences.  In my case, a local HAM suggested looking at the HAM rules for comparison but he was wrong because it isn't mentioned.  And I don't do Part 90, so I don't want to dig into that while not being familiar with all the intricacies of it.

I hope you're right about using base stations.  I just hate to put my money into a higher priced unit and then find out I'm not allowed to use it without getting in the car and maybe driving somewhere (not sure moving the car is necessary, but it isn't parked in the best spot for TX).  Most of the conversations I hear on the club repeaters are at night when I'm usually not out driving.  And sometimes the weather is not good and it's nice to stay inside.

[wrci350]

9 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't know of anywhere the GMRS rules say base stations are allowed only simplex.  Although uncommon, it is possible to have separate TX and RX frequencies even when not using a repeater.  The issue with base stations is they aren't listed as one of the types that are allowed to use the 467 MHz main channels.  It comes down to whether that omission is a prohibition.  I would expect a clear statement like, "Base stations are not permitted to transmit on these frequencies."  But you never know how things can be interpreted.

And what makes a station a control station is it is controlling something, typically a repeater's functions.  Since I don't have a repeater, control stations are not an issue for me.  And that lame circular definition that says fixed stations talk to other fixed stations does not tell us what makes one a fixed station.  But I've mostly come to the conclusion, even though I don't know what it is exactly, that it won't apply to my use.

Not sure what to tell you at this point.  If you don't believe that Part 95e allows you to use a mobile radio connected to a power supply and outdoor antenna to communicate through GMRS repeaters ... then don't.  Matters not at all to me.

I have quoted the section of Part 95 that defines what a control station is.  In that definition it says that a control station CAN be used to control a repeater.  It does NOT say that it HAS TO BE used in that manner.

Either way, you aren't a fixed station.  Stop being ... fixated on that.  Sorry, couldn't resist.

[wrci350]

As far as "base stations" go, 95.1763 states that they can transmit on the 462 main channels (GMRS 15-22) and the 462 interstital channels (1-7).  It does NOT list "base station" as being allowed to transmit on the 467 main channels, which are the repeater inputs for GMRS 15-22.

If you read the definitions, then "the radio at my house on a power supply connected to an outdoor antenna" is considered a "base station" if it transmits on 1-7 or 15-22, and that same radio is considered a "control station" when it transmits through a repeater.  Whether or not that radio actually "controls" the repeater is irrelevant.

Confusing?  Yeah, I'll agree that wording it that way is odd, since to most people, a "base station" is exactly what I described above.

Either way, if you were to survey the participants in these forums, I bet you would find out that at least 75% (and probably more) have "a radio at my house on a power supply connected to an outdoor antenna" that they use to talk through GMRS repeaters.  The rules also clearly state that doing so is OK.

[KAF6045]

24 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't know of anywhere the GMRS rules say base stations are allowed only simplex.  Although uncommon, it is possible to have separate TX and RX frequencies even when not using a repeater.  The issue with base stations is they aren't listed as one of the types that are allowed to use the 467 MHz main channels.  It comes down to whether that omission is a prohibition.  I would expect a clear statement like, "Base stations are not permitted to transmit on these frequencies."  But you never know how things can be interpreted.

I'd expect it to be an omission...

From the 1997 GMRS Repeater Directory (italics from the original source)

Quote

You may communicate from your base station (the one specifically shown on your license) to any licensed GMRS mobile station...

GMRES is a mobile radio service. Communication from one base station to another are not permitted.

Unfortunately, the FCC regulations only go back to 2017. Emphasis mine

Quote

§ 95.29 Channels available.

(a) For a base station, fixed station, mobile station, or repeater station (a GMRS station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another GMRS station on a different channel or channels), the licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see § 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations in the GMRS system from the following 462 MHz channels:

462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000 and 462.7250.

 

(b) For a mobile station, control station, or fixed station operated in the duplex mode, the following 467 MHz channels may be used only to transmit communications through a repeater station and for remotely controlling a repeater station. The licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see § 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations operated in the duplex mode, from the following 467 MHz channels:

467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000 and 467.7250.

95.25 has separate entries for base and control stations.

<snicker> The Federal Register https://www.federalregister.gov/citation/53-FR-36789 appears to have a bit of a contradiction:

"(e) No GMRS, CB or R/C transmitter shall transmit non-voice data."

Really -- you have to use voice commands for R/C?

 

24 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

And what makes a station a control station is it is controlling something, typically a repeater's functions..

It controls the operating parameters of the repeater: is the repeater on or off, what tones or frequencies are it on; -- PTT is not one of those since that function would make ALL users of the repeater "control operators". Control operators are supposed to either be physically present at the repeater site, or have a link (radio or landline) to allow making those parameter changes.

[wrci350]

30 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

It controls the operating parameters of the repeater: is the repeater on or off, what tones or frequencies are it on; -- PTT is not one of those since that function would make ALL users of the repeater "control operators". Control operators are supposed to either be physically present at the repeater site, or have a link (radio or landline) to allow making those parameter changes.

Yes, we all know that you used your 2-channel GMRS radio when you rode a dinosaur uphill both ways in the snow to school.  But we do not care, since the only GMRS rules and regulations currently in effect are the ones that went in effect in 2017.

Go read the definition again.  It clearly states MAY control repeater, not MUST control repeater.  It really doesn't matter what YOU think the definition of a control station is.  The FCC has spelled it out, and a "mobile radio connected to a power supply and outdoor antenna" clearly meets the definition of a Control Station for GMRS, whether it ever actually controls a repeater or not.  The fact that you don't agree with the definition in Part 95 and think it should mean something else doesn't change the FCC rules.

[UncleYoda]

10 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

I'd expect it to be an omission...

...

It controls the operating parameters of the repeater: is the repeater on or off, what tones or frequencies are it on; -- PTT is not one of those since that function would make ALL users of the repeater "control operators".

 

Well, expecting the general public to read and comprehend an omission in one spot as a general prohibition of a common use is ridiculous.  There isn't even a test and thus no studying for a license in this service so how many people could they reasonably expect to be that familiar with details of the regulations.

I agree about control operators;  I said the same thing with different words (that's what I meant by functions).  Control station is not a real concern for me and I don't accept that as a rationale for base stations using repeaters.  A mobile or handheld would be doing exactly the same operation when they transmit to a repeater.  

I'm just hung up on the wording in the regulations being inadequate for the target audience.  And I will (maybe?) hold off any more equipment purchases unless and until I know what use I can really get out of it.  [There's been more activity on the repeaters near me (which I have membership for) again this weekend so there's still some interest there.]

[UncleYoda]

13 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

clearly states MAY control repeater, not MUST control repeater.

I don't know if this will help you see the other side or not.  Any type of radio, including handheld and mobile, can be a control station.  It's what the person is doing with it that makes it a control station.  They can be a control station of their own repeater and just a user of someone else's.

[wrci350]

15 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't know if this will help you see the other side or not.  Any type of radio, including handheld and mobile, can be a control station.  It's what the person is doing with it that makes it a control station.  They can be a control station of their own repeater and just a user of someone else's.

There is no "other side".  Part 95a clearly states "A station at a fixed location".  THAT is the ONLY definition that matters for any of the Part 95 services.  The fact that it might be defined differently in Part 97 or 90, or that you think it means something else, or someone tells you that it means something else, matters not one bit as far as GMRS is concerned.  The rules were written by (or with) lawyers, so they can be a bit obtuse.  Find a lawyer to interpret them for you if you need to do so.

Your original post was basically, "Oh no I'm scared that the FCC black helicopters will come and take me away if I buy a mobile GMRS radio and use it in my house."

The regulations CLEARY STATE that is not the case.

But I'm done here.  Do whatever you want.  If you don't think it's "legal" to use a mobile GMRS radio in a home installation (with external antenna and power supply), then DON'T DO THAT.  Matters not one bit to me.  I'll just keep using my "control station" to talk through GMRS repeaters, as will most other users of these forums and and legions of others that have a GMRS license.

[BoxCar]

When reading the rules looking for specific information, you need to pay attention to any other rule or section listed in the footnotes as well. The FCC uses a lot of cross references in putting their rules and regulations together. After all, they are lawyers first.

[Sshannon]

These are usage limitations.

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

I have a house in town and a cabin sixteen miles away in the mountains. If I buy two radios and locate one at my house and the other at my cabin and the only thing I do is use the two to communicate to each other, I would argue those are “Fixed stations.” In this usage I am responsible for limiting my output power to 15 watts. That doesn’t mean the transmitter must not have the capability to transmit at a higher power!

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations. 

If I use a more or less permanently located radio, transmitting only on the 462 MHz main (not interstitial) frequencies to talk directly to my friends and neighbors, that is a “base station.” 

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations. 

If I use that same station to talk through a repeater on the 467 MHz frequencies, that is then a “control station.”

Hand-held portable unit. A physically small mobile station that can be operated while being held in the operator's hand.

If I hold a radio with a battery in my hand while I’m using it, that’s a “hand-held portable.”

Mobile station. A station, intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified locations, that communicates directly with base stations and other mobile stations, and with control stations and other mobile stations through repeater stations.

If I mount a radio in my car, that’s a “mobile.”

Finally,

Repeater station. A station in a fixed location used to extend the communications range of mobile stations, hand-held portable units and control stations by receiving their signals on one channel (the input channel) and simultaneously retransmitting these signals on another channel (the output channel), typically with higher transmitting power from a favorable antenna location (typically high above the surrounding terrain).

[WRUU653]

9 hours ago, Sshannon said:

DThese are usage limitations.

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

I have a house in town and a cabin sixteen miles away in the mountains. If I buy two radios and locate one at my house and the other at my cabin and the only thing I do is use the two to communicate to each other, I would argue those are “Fixed stations.” 

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations. 

If I use a more or less permanently located radio, transmitting on the 462 MHz simplex frequencies to talk directly to my friends and neighbors, that is a “base station.”

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations. 

If I use that same station to talk through a repeater on the 467 MHz frequencies, that is then a “control station.”

Mobile station. A station, intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified locations, that communicates directly with base stations and other mobile stations, and with control stations and other mobile stations through repeater stations.

If I mount a radio in my car, that’s a “mobile.”

If I hold a radio with a battery in my hand while I’m using it, that’s a “handheld portable.”

Finally,

Repeater station. A station in a fixed location used to extend the communications range of mobile stations, hand-held portable units and control stations by receiving their signals on one channel (the input channel) and simultaneously retransmitting these signals on another channel (the output channel), typically with higher transmitting power from a favorable antenna location (typically high above the surrounding terrain).

Yes! Steve Shannon for the win. Thank sir, thank you.