Programming commercial radios

[VETCOMMS]

I've read commercial radios are much higher quality and recommended to those who can afford it and would like the benefit of a radio with better components.

I also read it can be challenging to find software to program these radios but that some here can help with programming.

My question is two-fold.

1.  Is one brand easier to program than another?  Ie-Kenwood vs Motorola

2.  To get help with programming do I ship the radio to someone here or can they send me software and walk me through the process?

 

Just learning how it all works.

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, WRTZ750 said:

I've read commercial radios are much higher quality and recommended to those who can afford it and would like the benefit of a radio with better components.

I also read it can be challenging to find software to program these radios but that some here can help with programming.

My question is two-fold.

1.  Is one brand easier to program than another?  Ie-Kenwood vs Motorola

2.  To get help with programming do I ship the radio to someone here or can they send me software and walk me through the process?

 

Just learning how it all works.

I'll speak mostly from my own experience.

I've mostly dealt with Vertex Standard stuff, and coming from other radios, the learning curve for the analog only radios isn't horrible. aftermarket cables are available, many of the common software packages are out there, either from the cable seller or other sources, some paid.  the help files in the software are pretty decent about explaining the features, sometimes in somewhat technical language. the digital stuff is a level more complicated, but if you're sticking with the analog side, it's not TOO much more complicated than the analog. i have a couple motoTRBO compatible radios, and it's a few extra settings to watch out for setting up for analog. i was trying to get them going on DMR, but haven't fully worked that out.

From the forum, kenwood seem reasonably easy to get software and cables for. can't speak to the programming.  motorola seems to be more common to see ship-in programming services available.  i've been unsuccessful with programming a couple motorola radios i have, and kind of hit a brick wall with motorola, they were being helpful and then stopped.  the software i got didn't load at all on one computer, and the other won't see the radio, either with the aftermarket cable or a legit motorola cable.  Moto may be the most likely to be accessible through a local two way shop, with Kenwood not far behind. 

[Lscott]

6 hours ago, WRTZ750 said:

I've read commercial radios are much higher quality and recommended to those who can afford it and would like the benefit of a radio with better components.

I also read it can be challenging to find software to program these radios but that some here can help with programming.

My question is two-fold.

1.  Is one brand easier to program than another?  Ie-Kenwood vs Motorola

2.  To get help with programming do I ship the radio to someone here or can they send me software and walk me through the process?

 

Just learning how it all works.

I have mostly Kenwood stuff. For the most part finding the programming software for the older radios wasn't overly difficult. I've had much better luck with Kenwood verses Motorola.

I have a few Motorola radios. It took a bit of searching but I did find the version of the software I needed. The ones I have are more "picky" about building the code plugs. If the version of the radio's firmware changes most likely the the code plug will as well meaning you to have to rebuild it. With Kenwood that seems to be rather rare.

Also some of the really old radios you absolutely will require a computer running DOS to load, run and program the radios. I would avoid those.

There are several issues with buying used commercial radios.

One you're never sure if the radio works. If it looks beat to crap be careful. Even very good looking radios may have failed the output stage resulting in little to no power on TX. I've also had a few with nasty audio issues on RX. Make sure the seller has a return option. A few had even the center pin in the antenna socket busted out. Look over all of the photos VERY closely.

Second double check the frequency range of the radio!  UHF radios come in a number of frequency ranges. You might find one at a good price but it only covers 400 MHz to 430 MHz, or something like 470 MHz to 520 MHz, as examples, useless for Ham and GMRS. I've seen a lot of sellers get the description wrong. Don't rely on it. The best way to check is look at the photos and get the FCC ID. There are places on the Internet where you can look it up which will show you the FCC "Grant" showing the tested power levels and frequency ranges.

Third, another reason to check the FCC ID, a few sellers are trying to dump non US/North American radios, which may not even have the ID! Trying to find software for a non US radio has proven hard to find.

If the seller can't or won't show you the tags on the back of the radio showing the FCC ID, serial number and model type stay away from it. I've seen one where the serial number part of the tag was obviously removed, Dah, I wonder why!?

Last, and this is a big one, be absolutely sure the radio does NOT have any passwords set!!! There are typically two, one prevents the programming software from reading out the contents, not a big problem, and the second is the write password. It's the write password that will completely block you from ever reprogramming the radio. In that case you have an expensive brick. To guard against this again make sure the seller has a money back policy in this case. Finding the special "Engineer" version of the programming software, which normally only the dealer or the service depot has, may not be easy to find and is some cases not available PERIOD.  

 

 

[VETCOMMS]

Wow!  All things I never thought to ask.  Thanks for sharing!

[MarkInTampa]

I was searching for programming software for commercial radios last week and found a site called Radiosoftware.online (https://https://radiosoftware.online/) that seems to have a vast collection of programming software for most of the manufactures and models. Only problem is it's a $155 annual fee to use it with no monthly or single download fee option available or offered. Have no idea if they are legit or not, maybe someone here can chime in. You can browse the site first to see if they have what you are looking for, you just can't download it without a subscription. 

[Lscott]

1 minute ago, markskjerve said:

I was searching for programming software for commercial radios last week and found a site called Radiosoftware.online (https://https://radiosoftware.online/) that seems to have a vast collection of programming software for most of the manufactures and models. Only problem is it's a $155 annual fee to use it with no monthly or single download fee. Have no idea if they are legit or not, maybe someone here can chime in. You can browse the site first to see if they have what you are looking for, you just can't download it without a subscription. 

If it isn't from an authorized dealer or the manufacture then it's pirated software. The Kenwood stuff isn't too hard to find from various sites without somebody trying to make money off of selling the software they likely got for free elsewhere.  You'll have to look around for it.

There is one source where a "Ham friendly" dealer doesn't seem to have a problem supplying older versions of Kenwood software if you ask nicely. There is also a lot available in the files section. You do have to register to join the group and there is no cost involved either. You'll likely will need to register first before the following link will work.

    https://groups.io/g/radioprogramming/files

Sample screen shot of top level folders for the above.

[gortex2]

As said using commercial software for the most part go to the manufacturer. Ive used commercial radios for over 30 years. One recommendation would be to use similar to what those around you do if you can. Makes programming and testing a bit easier. I'm a MSI fan and all my gear for them most part is Motorola. I have a couple Kenwood and ICOM radios around that I've ended up with but everything I buy is Motorola. Once you get with a "brand" you'll find most are similar to program in that brand. In the past ICOM was a good unit and software and stuff is pretty easy to get. Alot of our SAR folks standardized on ICOM for cost and benefits. Kenwood also has some good stuff. To be honest the old Midland LMR gear was built like a tank. Biggest issue is alot of old gear is DOS based. Find something newer and you will be good. 

[nokones]

9 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

I'll speak mostly from my own experience.

I've mostly dealt with Vertex Standard stuff, and coming from other radios, the learning curve for the analog only radios isn't horrible. aftermarket cables are available, many of the common software packages are out there, either from the cable seller or other sources, some paid.  the help files in the software are pretty decent about explaining the features, sometimes in somewhat technical language. the digital stuff is a level more complicated, but if you're sticking with the analog side, it's not TOO much more complicated than the analog. i have a couple motoTRBO compatible radios, and it's a few extra settings to watch out for setting up for analog. i was trying to get them going on DMR, but haven't fully worked that out.

From the forum, kenwood seem reasonably easy to get software and cables for. can't speak to the programming.  motorola seems to be more common to see ship-in programming services available.  i've been unsuccessful with programming a couple motorola radios i have, and kind of hit a brick wall with motorola, they were being helpful and then stopped.  the software i got didn't load at all on one computer, and the other won't see the radio, either with the aftermarket cable or a legit motorola cable.  Moto may be the most likely to be accessible through a local two way shop, with Kenwood not far behind. 

Which model Motorola radios you are having trouble with? I might be able to help. I have the factory software and cables for several model radios. I have a Motorola Master Services Software License Agreement to buy, possess, and use the programming software.

[wayoverthere]

2 hours ago, nokones said:

Which model Motorola radios you are having trouble with? I might be able to help. I have the factory software and cables for several model radios. I have a Motorola Master Services Software License Agreement to buy, possess, and use the programming software.

it was a pair of xpr 6500's..one for 70cm, one 900mhz.  I was jumping through the hoops with Motorola to try to get a known legit copy of the software, and after giving them the rundown of my situation, they said i needed a business account to get, and wanted some basic info to change over my existing account.  Never heard anything after that, so that little project went on the back burner.

[VETCOMMS]

So is this an example of a Kenwood that's relatively straight forward to program?

https://used-radios.com/kenwood-tk-890h-uhf-450-490mhz-mobile-radio-advanced/

 

[axorlov]

I do not have personal experience with TK-890H, just note that it's 100W radio, while max power allowed on GMRS is 50W. Be a good neighbor. Software seems to be available around, KPG-44D.

I have personal experience with another radio currently selling on this site, TK-880H. That one is very straight forward to program, and also has Part 95 certification (judging by the published split, it must be "-1", which has Part 95), if it is important to you. Software is KPG-49D, front panel is not remotable.

All what was said about passwords and such applies.

[WRUE951]

A pair of brand new Maxon's 8402's radio's, programing cable, software and tether cable can be had for about $800 bucks.. Same radio used in the Bridgecomm for half the cost.    Maxon's are very nice commercial radios falling right with Motorola as far as quality ad operation goes.. Maxons are extremely easy to program.  Multec Communications has some great deals on commercial radios.  

[VETCOMMS]

35 minutes ago, axorlov said:

I do not have personal experience with TK-890H, just note that it's 100W radio, while max power allowed on GMRS is 50W. Be a good neighbor. Software seems to be available around, KPG-44D.

I have personal experience with another radio currently selling on this site, TK-880H. That one is very straight forward to program, and also has Part 95 certification (judging by the published split, it must be "-1", which has Part 95), if it is important to you. Software is KPG-49D, front panel is not remotable.

All what was said about passwords and such applies.

Thanks for that, I wasn't sure if the radio I mentioned can be turned down when programming.  

I'm not sure what you mean about the published split being -1.  Does that have to do with narrowband?

So to program is it similar to using Chirp?  That's the extent of my programming experience.

[axorlov]

27 minutes ago, WRTZ750 said:

I'm not sure what you mean about the published split being -1.  Does that have to do with narrowband?

The V2.0 version of TK-880 came in three frequency splits: Type 1, 2 and 3. Only Type 1 has a good split for GMRS and also has Part 95 cert. Brochure is here, look at the last page: https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK-780(H).pdf On the label on the back of the radio it would say: TK-880H-1 (or -2 or -3) and V2.0. Radio works and can be programmed to both wide band and narrow band per channel basis. I.e some channels may be programmed to narrow and some to wide in the same time. It is not going to be a whole radio switch to wide band. Programming is similar to Chirp in the sense that there is a list of "channels" - memory slots that are configured to frequency, split, RX and TX tone, name and other options. There are also "zones" that a groups of channels. But there are features that are usually not present in Chirp, like Operator Selected Tone, ability to reprogram buttons on the face of the radio. It also can be programmed to listen to LTR trunking systems, if you have them around and so inclined.

Label, this is for 880, not 880H, but you'll get the idea:

[VETCOMMS]

So I just had a thought.  Does anyone know how often local law enforcement/EMS switch out their radios?  Do they auction that type of equipment or is it best to go through used-radios.com?

[wayoverthere]

21 minutes ago, WRTZ750 said:

So I just had a thought.  Does anyone know how often local law enforcement/EMS switch out their radios?  Do they auction that type of equipment or is it best to go through used-radios.com?

I can't speak to the auction part, but I've dealt with used-radios.com a few times, all good, and they were helpful with some questions I had after the sale.

[WRAM370]

There is a lot to working with commercial radios, if you want to program them yourself. It is not like the amateur/GMRS radios with simple programming software, that is nearly plug-n-play.

Some models of commercial radios were set up for analog trunking systems, and as such require some odd ways to program them for traditional ham/GMRS use. These radios, such as the Kenwood TK-840, have System and Group functions, so they require a slightly different approach to programming, if you want to put a bunch of GMRS channels in and scan them.

Keep in mind that a lot of older radios were from the days of computers running DOS, and the programming software for those older radios need to be run in DOS, and the communications speeds of the serial ports needs to be slow. There are YT videos of people successfully running the older programming software in DOSBox, but I have never had luck with that ( and I didn’t need to spend a lot of time on it, because I have other options).

Some software may work in Windows OS, but they may only like up to Windows 98. Newer radio programming software is generally compatible with Win 10.

Also note that Motorola is very particular about protecting their programming software, and the official channel to obtain that software can cost you an additional $200-300 (I don’t recall the exact price, but it is up there). I believe Kenwood has recently adopted a licensing scheme as well, for their commercial programming software.

As mentioned, you want to take note of the band split of a particular radio. Most commercial radios are tuned to a specific portion of the band, and could not work for your needs unless you are skilled and equipped to do alignments on radios. And even then, some components may require replacement.

And many newer (post 2013) radios commercial radios will only do narrow band, unless you purchase an unlock key to allow wide band programming. That generally means spending additional money, or going through the process of Motorola indoctrination.

If you want to run commercial radios on GMRS, and don’t have a bench full of electronics test gear and a stack of old computers, you are probably better off with a company such as Used-Radios.com. If you are a general appliance operator on GMRS or amateur radio, you probably want to buy something off the shelf from Midland or Wouxan. If you are a glutton for punishment, by all means buy used radio gear, learn to program and align it yourself, and then realize there is no market for this stuff anymore, thanks to the good folks in China that have flooded the market with inexpensive radios.

 

[tcp2525]

As others have said, commercial radios are really nice, but you have a learning curve. Finding equipment dirt cheap is relatively easy  if you take your time. I was able to snag two brand new in the box Vertex VX-4207s for next to nothing. Nice 45w radios with over 500 channels loaded with features. Well built with lots of heat sink that keeps it cool when you get long winded.

The software took getting used to and at first had to roll back the computer date so I could program wide band. After playing with the software I was able to get into "developer mode" and no longer have to screw with the computer clock. I was even able to extend the frequency range into the 70CM ham band and program in a bunch of repeaters as well. 

Just take your time and have fun with it. Oh, and buy a Radiodity DB-20 for less than $100 new and have fun with that till you snag  some commercial gear.

[nokones]

6 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

it was a pair of xpr 6500's..one for 70cm, one 900mhz.  I was jumping through the hoops with Motorola to try to get a known legit copy of the software, and after giving them the rundown of my situation, they said i needed a business account to get, and wanted some basic info to change over my existing account.  Never heard anything after that, so that little project went on the back burner.

I wish I could help you but, I haven't dived into the XPR series yet.  Good luck with your project.

[nokones]

4 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

I can't speak to the auction part, but I've dealt with used-radios.com a few times, all good, and they were helpful with some questions I had after the sale.

In California, there are government surplus property laws and all local (City and County) and State Agencies must sell their surplus property through public sales, pursuant to the Government Code. Some property must be auctioned and some you can buy on the spot. In California, all State Agencies must transfer their surplus property to the Department of General Services (DGS) Property and Reutilization Division and they sell/auction the state's surplus property.

Depending on the property item, there is a replacement schedule the State Agencies must follow in order to get the funding for replacing specific equipment. The CHP would budget for the replacement of radios every 10 years but, I'm not sure if that is the case today. 17 years ago, that was the case.

[JeepCrawler98]

6 hours ago, axorlov said:

I do not have personal experience with TK-890H, just note that it's 100W radio, while max power allowed on GMRS is 50W. Be a good neighbor. Software seems to be available around, KPG-44D.

I have personal experience with another radio currently selling on this site, TK-880H. That one is very straight forward to program, and also has Part 95 certification (judging by the published split, it must be "-1", which has Part 95), if it is important to you. Software is KPG-49D, front panel is not remotable.

All what was said about passwords and such applies.

I have 8 of the TK790/890 radios in dual band configuration - I buy them up even when I have no need for them because I like them that much. And while they’re my absolute favorite tank of a machine of the vintage, I wouldn’t recommend them for a first time commercial radio.

programming them is easy enough, however in terms of packaging they are meant to be heavily integrated public safety installs so there can be a lot of non-standard parts, wiring, and hardware involved to actually get one online.

other than that they’re great though; the receivers on them are amazing and they’re near impossible to kill.

the 880 is a great little rig, the 8180 is fantastic too if you want something newer.

Edited February 6, 2023 by JeepCrawler98

[VETCOMMS]

4 hours ago, WRAM370 said:

There is a lot to working with commercial radios, if you want to program them yourself. It is not like the amateur/GMRS radios with simple programming software, that is nearly plug-n-play.

Some models of commercial radios were set up for analog trunking systems, and as such require some odd ways to program them for traditional ham/GMRS use. These radios, such as the Kenwood TK-840, have System and Group functions, so they require a slightly different approach to programming, if you want to put a bunch of GMRS channels in and scan them.

Keep in mind that a lot of older radios were from the days of computers running DOS, and the programming software for those older radios need to be run in DOS, and the communications speeds of the serial ports needs to be slow. There are YT videos of people successfully running the older programming software in DOSBox, but I have never had luck with that ( and I didn’t need to spend a lot of time on it, because I have other options).

Some software may work in Windows OS, but they may only like up to Windows 98. Newer radio programming software is generally compatible with Win 10.

Also note that Motorola is very particular about protecting their programming software, and the official channel to obtain that software can cost you an additional $200-300 (I don’t recall the exact price, but it is up there). I believe Kenwood has recently adopted a licensing scheme as well, for their commercial programming software.

As mentioned, you want to take note of the band split of a particular radio. Most commercial radios are tuned to a specific portion of the band, and could not work for your needs unless you are skilled and equipped to do alignments on radios. And even then, some components may require replacement.

And many newer (post 2013) radios commercial radios will only do narrow band, unless you purchase an unlock key to allow wide band programming. That generally means spending additional money, or going through the process of Motorola indoctrination.

If you want to run commercial radios on GMRS, and don’t have a bench full of electronics test gear and a stack of old computers, you are probably better off with a company such as Used-Radios.com. If you are a general appliance operator on GMRS or amateur radio, you probably want to buy something off the shelf from Midland or Wouxan. If you are a glutton for punishment, by all means buy used radio gear, learn to program and align it yourself, and then realize there is no market for this stuff anymore, thanks to the good folks in China that have flooded the market with inexpensive radios.

 

This makes it sound like for the average Joe (me) that has minimal experience in this GMRS/radio hobby there's alot more to it than simply plugging in Chirp.  I'm not skilled in this and don't even know what it means to do alignments so I'll either pay someone to program it or stay with the lower quality boxed GMRS radios.

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, WRTZ750 said:

This makes it sound like for the average Joe (me) that has minimal experience in this GMRS/radio hobby there's alot more to it than simply plugging in Chirp.  I'm not skilled in this and don't even know what it means to do alignments so I'll either pay someone to program it or stay with the lower quality boxed GMRS radios.

That might be a better choice for the moment. Get a cheap GMRS specific radio and experiment with programming it. Once you feel comfortable with the basic concepts then you can move up to a commercial type radio. That’s what many people do.

The commercial radios have a significant learning curve if you never programed one before. They have a multitude of options that you may or may not want or need. Trying to figure it all out from scratch is not for everybody. It took me a while even through I had done Ham specific radios before. The commercial radios were different enough I spent some time reading the help files in the programming software and experimenting.

If all you want is just a plug and play radio then having a radio shop program it is the way to go. However if you’re the type that wants to get your head wrapped around the idea there is nothing like trying it yourself. Of course you’ll make mistakes, but hey if you didn’t you likely won’t learn anything.

[tcp2525]

8 hours ago, WRTZ750 said:

This makes it sound like for the average Joe (me) that has minimal experience in this GMRS/radio hobby there's alot more to it than simply plugging in Chirp.  I'm not skilled in this and don't even know what it means to do alignments so I'll either pay someone to program it or stay with the lower quality boxed GMRS radios.

One other suggestion. Start going to local hamfests when they pop   up  in your area as  you  will always find some deals there. Plus, you can always find other stuff radio related stuff you  never new you needed and want.

[PACNWComms]

4 hours ago, tcp2525 said:

Start going to local hamfests when they pop   up  in your area

Always good advice. Have found some very nice test equipment (HP8920, Bird wattmeters, and antenna analyzers) cheap at hamfests. Also vintage tube type radios....although I would say that is a niche area of the hobby now. I always see something I never even heard of at local radio club meetings and vendor tables. 

[Lscott]

42 minutes ago, PACNWComms said:

Always good advice. Have found some very nice test equipment (HP8920, Bird wattmeters, and antenna analyzers) cheap at hamfests. Also vintage tube type radios....although I would say that is a niche area of the hobby now. I always see something I never even heard of at local radio club meetings and vendor tables. 

I once saw an old tube tester in a wood case at the Salvation Army store near my house for about $17. Went back the next day and it was already gone. I guess it's in somebody else's antique electronics collection now, or on eBay selling for $150.