Business use of GMRS

[davidotoole]

Quote

The operator of a GMRS station may use that station for two-way plain language voice communications with other GMRS stations and with FRS units concerning personal or business activities.

This is from https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E/section-95.1731 . Does that mean GMRS is legitimate for commercial use? It used to not be, I think. Seems obvious enough, but I've misunderstood rules before...  I would greatly appreciate any help you can offer. 

[davidotoole]

Just to clarify, it does say that only individuals and not businesses can have licenses. I am asking about whether individual licensees can communicate with each other for business purposes.

[Sshannon]

Yes:

§ 95.1731 Permissible GMRS uses.

The operator of a GMRS station may use that station for two-way plain language voice communications with other GMRS stations and with FRS units concerning personal or business activities

[davidotoole]

Thank you @Sshannon I wonder when this was changed? That language is present in the 2017 ruling, I still see some info online that says GMRS commercial use is verboten. Anyway thanks for clearing this up  I am so happy for everyones help and I hope I can make a good contribution to this forum.

[Sshannon]

2 minutes ago, davidotoole said:

Thank you @Sshannon I wonder when this was changed? That language is present in the 2017 ruling, I still see some info online that says GMRS commercial use is verboten. Anyway thanks for clearing this up  I am so happy for everyones help and I hope I can make a good contribution to this forum.

It depends on what you’re doing commercially.  First, these uses are forbidden for all public radio services:

§ 95.333 Prohibited uses.

No person shall use a Personal Radio Service station:

(a)In connection with any activity which is against Federal, State or local law; 

(b)To transmit advertisements or program material associated with television or radio broadcasting; 

(c)To transmit messages for hire or provide a common carrier service; 

(d)To intentionally interfere with the communications of another station; 

(e)To transmit obscene, profane or indecent words, language or meaning; or 

(f)To transmit a false or deceptive communication.

 

So clearly you cannot spam listeners or charge to deliver messages.

 

[davidotoole]

Quote

So clearly you cannot spam listeners or charge to deliver messages.

Yes. Thank you for clarifying this. My imagined commercial use involves communicating between employees, paging and finding one another on site. No advertisements or common carrier.

[Sshannon]

FRS has similar language that permits business use:

Family Radio Service (FRS).A short-distance two-way voice communication service, with limited data applications, between low power hand-held radios, for facilitating individual, family, group, recreational and business activities. 

[Sshannon]

Finally, these are the prohibited uses named in the GMRS section (Part E):

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a)In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate: 

(1)Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law; 

(2)False or deceptive messages; 

(3)Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible); 

(4)Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain; 

(5)Advertisements or offers for the sale of goods or services; 

(6)Advertisements for a political candidate or political campaign (messages about the campaign business may be communicated); 

(7)International distress signals, such as the word “Mayday” (except when on a ship, aircraft or other vehicle in immediate danger to ask for help); 

(8)Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station; 

(9)Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station; 

(10)Continuous or uninterrupted transmissions, except for communications involving the immediate safety of life or property; and 

(11)Messages for public address systems. 

(12)The provision of § 95.333apply, however, if the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary. 

(b)GMRS stations must not be used for one-way communications other than those listed in § 95.1731(b). Initial transmissions to establish two-way communications and data transmissions listed in § 95.1731(d)are not considered to be one-way communications for the purposes of this section

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, davidotoole said:

Yes. Thank you for clarifying this. My imagined commercial use involves communicating between employees, paging and finding one another on site. No advertisements or common carrier.

Each employee, including you, would be required to have their own GMRS license and comply with all the regulations including the ID one. As a business owner you can't get a license for your business, that was eliminated with the rule changes in 2017,  and hand out radios to your employees.

If that's too much to deal with then just go and buy a bunch of FRS radios. Most of the same regulations apply that you see for GMRS. The big differences are the radios are limited to 2 watts on most channels, no repeater access and no ID/license requirements. 

[nokones]

Back in the early days of GMRS, businesses and corporations where granted GMRS licenses. Those licenses were frequency and location specific. If those licenses were originally granted before July, 1987, were eligible to be grandfathered and if they were grandfathered and renewed and valid may continue to operate per the specified restrictions and limitations of the grandfathered Radio Station Authorization (License) per Part 95.1705(g).

[PartsMan]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:13 AM, Lscott said:

Each employee, including you, would be required to have their own GMRS license and comply with all the regulations including the ID one. As a business owner you can't get a license for your business, that was eliminated with the rule changes in 2017,  and hand out radios to your employees.

If that's too much to deal with then just go and buy a bunch of FRS radios. Most of the same regulations apply that you see for GMRS. The big differences are the radios are limited to 2 watts on most channels, no repeater access and no ID/license requirements. 

This is were the service naming is backward. "Family Radio Service" is for general use.

"General Mobile Radio Service" is for anybody in your family (and other families with a licensed user).

It is very common for a boss to get GMRS radios and communicate with his unrelated employees though.

[WRUU653]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:41 AM, davidotoole said:

Yes. Thank you for clarifying this. My imagined commercial use involves communicating between employees, paging and finding one another on site. No advertisements or common carrier.

Sounds like a use case for MURS, like Walmart. License free not much traffic on it. 

[Sshannon]

48 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Sounds like a use case for MURS, like Walmart. License free not much traffic on it. 

It really is perfect for this. The 2 watt power and VHF range, plus simple radios and clear frequencies make MURS ideal. 

[jeffsimmons1960]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:13 PM, Lscott said:

 

If that's too much to deal with then just go and buy a bunch of FRS radios. Most of the same regulations apply that you see for GMRS. The big differences are the radios are limited to 2 watts on most channels, no repeater access and no ID/license requirements. 

Hello, new guy here, first post. Back in the 90s, I was at a local fairground using an FRS channel talking to my son. Turned out the state constables or the fairground operators or somebody was using that channel for their operations, with obviously higher powered radios, and kicked me off of the channel. I didn't argue and went to another channel, but I've always wondered about the legality of that.

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, jeffsimmons1960 said:

Hello, new guy here, first post. Back in the 90s, I was at a local fairground using an FRS channel talking to my son. Turned out the state constables or the fairground operators or somebody was using that channel for their operations, with obviously higher powered radios, and kicked me off of the channel. I didn't argue and went to another channel, but I've always wondered about the legality of that.

 

They definitely did not have the authority to do that. In the same way only the FAA regulates airspace over the US, the rules of the airwaves are regulated exclusively by the FCC under authority granted by Congress. The rules say that no one owns any frequency, and all operators work on the premise of first come, first serve. There is nothing that says you can't have a conversation in-between conversations, and it's actually pretty common, as long as no one is causing harmful interference and everyone must yield to emergency traffic.  I love having that conversation with the idiots that tell me to "get off their frequency". LOL 

[WRUU653]

46 minutes ago, jeffsimmons1960 said:

Hello, new guy here, first post. Back in the 90s, I was at a local fairground using an FRS channel talking to my son. Turned out the state constables or the fairground operators or somebody was using that channel for their operations, with obviously higher powered radios, and kicked me off of the channel. I didn't argue and went to another channel, but I've always wondered about the legality of that.

I'm sure someone will chime in here that remembers when the rules changed and correct me if I get this wrong but my recolection is that the 90's is about when bubble pack FRS radios were introduced (Walmart, Costco...)with GMRS frequencies that were not a shrared channels yet. So people didn't pay any mind to the small print that you had to be licensed for GMRS on some of the channels. Thus the FCC changed the rules because it was to late to put the genie back in the bottle. So maybe that is why they were kicking you off.  More likely they were associated with the fairground and not state constables though. I don't think that would happen today. 

[jeffsimmons1960]

4 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

They definitely did not have the authority to do that. In the same way only the FAA regulates airspace over the US, the rules of the airwaves are regulated exclusively by the FCC under authority granted by Congress. The rules say that no one owns any frequency, the all operators work on the premise of first come, first serve. There is nothing that says you can't have a conversation in-between conversations, and it's actually pretty common, as long as no one is causing harmful interference and everyone must yield to emergency traffic.  I love having that conversation with the idiots that tell me to "get off their frequency". LOL 

Yeah, they were jerks about it too. But that's typical of my area. And it was an FRS channel to boot. At the time I just let it go. It wasn't like I knew they were on it and deliberately tried to interfere, I just picked a random channel to communicate with my son. They just chose to be ignorant about it. But we're talking about small town fair security and warrant servers that ride around in a golf cart with a mounted shotgun, 3 sets of handcuffs and tasers and guns, and probably is really bummed out because they can't do traffic stops, lol.

[jeffsimmons1960]

10 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

I'm sure someone will chime in here that remembers when the rules changed and correct me if I get this wrong but my recolection is that the 90's is about when bubble pack FRS radios were introduced (Walmart, Costco...)with GMRS frequencies that were not a shrared channels yet. So people didn't pay any mind to the small print that you had to be licensed for GMRS on some of the channels. Thus the FCC changed the rules because it was to late to put the genie back in the bottle. So maybe that is why they were kicking you off.  More likely they were associated with the fairground and not state constables though. I don't think that would happen today. 

They were definitely Walmart bubble pack radios, but if I remember right they were strictly FRS. It's been a while and the old memory isn't that sharp anymore. I have all the respect in the world for law enforcement, but the state constables around here are pretty over the top.

[WRUU653]

9 minutes ago, jeffsimmons1960 said:

They were definitely Walmart bubble pack radios, but if I remember right they were strictly FRS. It's been a while and the old memory isn't that sharp anymore. I have all the respect in the world for law enforcement, but the state constables around here are pretty over the top.

The idea that anyone thinks they can kick you off FRS channels is pretty ridiculous and bold. Except maybe those carnies… they can be scary

[Sshannon]

4 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

The idea that anyone thinks they can kick you off FRS channels is pretty ridiculous and bold. Except maybe those carnies… they can be scary

And clowns.  They’re terrifying.

[Lscott]

8 hours ago, jeffsimmons1960 said:

Hello, new guy here, first post. Back in the 90s, I was at a local fairground using an FRS channel talking to my son. Turned out the state constables or the fairground operators or somebody was using that channel for their operations, with obviously higher powered radios, and kicked me off of the channel. I didn't argue and went to another channel, but I've always wondered about the legality of that.

Back at that time the rules were different. It was possible for businesses to get a license for a frequency. 

Second the FCC F'd up and allowed the sale of combination FRS/GMRS radios too. The manufactures did put a very helpful note in the box warning users that some of the channels, those above 14, were for licensed GMRS use only. Almost universal nobody read that, or if they did, just ignored it.

You might have found yourself operating on a frequency you weren't licensed to use in which case being told to leave wouldn't have been unexpected.

[nokones]

Also,  back in the 90s the FCC rules prohibited Government entities to use FRS frequencies for government communications. Today, the rule is no longer in the regulations.

[jeffsimmons1960]

2 hours ago, Lscott said:

 

You might have found yourself operating on a frequency you weren't licensed to use in which case being told to leave wouldn't have been unexpected.

That could be. I didn't push it, I didn't know well enough to give them an argument. I thought I was on a half watt FRS channel.

[Sshannon]

12 minutes ago, jeffsimmons1960 said:

That could be. I didn't push it, I didn't know well enough to give them an argument. I thought I was on a half watt FRS channel.

You probably were in the right.  I doubt there are very many state constables who know anything about FCC regulations.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, jeffsimmons1960 said:

That could be. I didn't push it, I didn't know well enough to give them an argument. I thought I was on a half watt FRS channel.

Since you can't recall it's just speculation they might have been licensed to use that frequency at the time.

I remember having an on-air disagreement with a person using a radio at the now de-funked Troys-R-Us store a mile or so from my old apartment on the MURS service. They said it was a licensed "Private" 900MHz frequency and I had to get off the air. Dah!! 900MHz? They were smoking something. I informed them it wasn't 900MHz, it's a VHF frequency now a part of the MURS service and is shared between users, then bluntly told them I wasn't leaving the frequency. I wasn't interfering with their communications, they apparently didn't like the idea they had to share it.

I'm sure there are many other cases where old business users still think they have exclusive use of a particular frequency.  For example the local mall by me is still routinely operating under GMRS, they have a repeater in operation (462.575/467.575), but their license expired years ago. They continue to operate unlicensed to this day. Since it expired they can't get it renewed for business use. See attached files from the FCC database.

Before anyone gets tied up in a knot I would recommend researching the business/frequency first to see if they are in fact licensed. There could be a few legitimately grandfathered licensed users out there. 

Lakeside Mall KAB1523 GMRS - Admin.pdf Lakeside Mall KAB1523 GMRS - Main.pdf