Can you legally integrate/pratice using codes into your Emercency Plan for coms?

[DirtyCitizen]

I've heard differing opinions on the topic but using codes, kinda the same way HAMs use Qcodes for shortening communications, could you integrate basic shorthand for your family into an emergency preparedness plan? I'm pretty sure if you need your Emergency plan you won't really have to much time to worry about the FCC. Practicing shorthand Like fire and rescue/police officers and so on in your family I'm thinking may be a bit of a problem because you don't have a way to post it on the web it may be considered encryption instead of data packets. I know you can send encrypted mssgs over Cellular networks and that's just a higher frequency so is it an outdated law? if you're not causing interference I don't see the problem but it seems to be a sensitive subject and in the case of say a violent mob using radio to monitor say Bernie Sanders supporters, you really can't effectively organize an egress out of a dangerous area.. and practice makes perfect so I would say the ability to practice is pretty important.. Just looking for input. and not a Mittens or B. Sanders fan.

[SteveShannon]

Here’s what the regulations say:

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate: 

(1) Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law; 

(2) False or deceptive messages; 

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

[Guest]

In recent years, agencies and organizations that are involved in emergency responses have been moving away from code. Safety plans are promoting the use of clear language for such communication.

Especially is you are looking at interagency and multi organization communication and collaboration, the "danger" of misunderstood codes has triggered a move towards plain language.

As you are looking at family communication, please ask yourself if all family members will be able to remember code in stressful situations?

Also, what if some non-family members hear your transmission or want to help but do not understand your codes?

Being prepared is important but remember that intense stress will be a major monkey-wrench if the situation causes introduce real danger 

 

 

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, DirtyCitizen said:

I've heard differing opinions on the topic but using codes, kinda the same way HAMs use Qcodes for shortening communications, could you integrate basic shorthand for your family into an emergency preparedness plan? I'm pretty sure if you need your Emergency plan you won't really have to much time to worry about the FCC. Practicing shorthand Like fire and rescue/police officers and so on in your family I'm thinking may be a bit of a problem because you don't have a way to post it on the web it may be considered encryption instead of data packets. I know you can send encrypted mssgs over Cellular networks and that's just a higher frequency so is it an outdated law? if you're not causing interference I don't see the problem but it seems to be a sensitive subject and in the case of say a violent mob using radio to monitor say Bernie Sanders supporters, you really can't effectively organize an egress out of a dangerous area.. and practice makes perfect so I would say the ability to practice is pretty important.. Just looking for input. and not a Mittens or B. Sanders fan.

In an emergency situation codes could be detrimental. This is a particular concern when trying to relay information between services. For example a person switching operation between let’s say a GMRS radio and a public service radio.
 

Different services, and even on the same one, the codes could be dissimilar between departments. Getting the codes mixed up resulting in delayed or missed directed resources has very serious consequences. Plain language avoids the confusion.

[UncleYoda]

No. (answer to the title)

[WRUU653]

12 hours ago, DirtyCitizen said:

I've heard differing opinions on the topic but using codes

You know what Dirty Harry said about opinions? But seriously as Steve mentioned the regulations are clear.

As for emergencies I remember seeing something on tv when I was young it went like this… “if this had been an actual emergency you would have been blown clean out of the room”

 

[BoxCar]

Using code words or phrases in normal conversations would be against the regulations as has been clearly stated. However, in an actual emergency you can pretty much throw the regulations in the trash. The key point being the FCC, should they investigate, would have to agree the situation did rise to the level of a true emergency and agree the use was justified.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, BoxCar said:

Using code words or phrases in normal conversations would be against the regulations as has been clearly stated. However, in an actual emergency you can pretty much throw the regulations in the trash. The key point being the FCC, should they investigate, would have to agree the situation did rise to the level of a true emergency and agree the use was justified.

People are quick to say “in an emergency” as if that excuses all sorts of non-compliance, but the truth is that non-compliance during an actual emergency is more likely to be detrimental to those who need effective communications.  A recent example was the jerk who interfered with fire-fighting crews by getting on the radio and trying to redirect their efforts to what he considered an emergency.

The regulations do allow certain behaviors in an emergency but you must read the actual language of those exceptions.  None of them amount to “anything goes.”

But you are correct that the FCC might not even investigate unless a complaint is made.

[Guest]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:26 PM, DirtyCitizen said:

[...] I know you can send encrypted mssgs over Cellular networks and that's just a higher frequency so is it an outdated law? [...]

A part of FCC's licensing process is allocating frequencies and deciding on modes suitable for the intended purpose.

GMRS is a more advanced version of highly localized Family Radio Service and it seems reasonable to assume that such service will not need encryption.

Cell phone services are facilitating millions of communication connections of all kinds. Protecting those communications, through encryption or other means, seems reasonable and is also inherent to the digital technology used.

If you are looking for a "coded" service that works locally, Motorola's DTR (900 MHz / ISM band) could be an option - just do not use them 'out of the box'.

In the meantime, if you want a private conversation, cell-phones are reasonably private (unless you are subject to a FISA court order) 

 

Talking about violent mobs, the groups that figured out the advantage of encrypted blackberry messages (many moons ago) were British soccer hooligans. They organized their fights, vandalism, and escape through such technology...

Technology can always be use in different ways and often the abuse is quicker than beneficial use cases ... something to ponder. 

[back4more70]

47 minutes ago, WRXD372 said:

A part of FCC's licensing process is allocating frequencies and deciding on modes suitable for the intended purpose.

GMRS is a more advanced version of highly localized Family Radio Service and it seems reasonable to assume that such service will not need encryption.

Cell phone services are facilitating millions of communication connections of all kinds. Protecting those communications, through encryption or other means, seems reasonable and is also inherent to the digital technology used.

Not to mention that folks are paying handsomely for cell phone service, and I don't believe that cell infrastructure is government-sponsored.  Encrypt away, customers!

[KAF6045]

16 hours ago, back4more70 said:

Not to mention that folks are paying handsomely for cell phone service, and I don't believe that cell infrastructure is government-sponsored.  Encrypt away, customers!

The physical structures are not government -- but all cellphone providers operate under government licenses and regulations. (NOTE: the protocols used by cell companies are international standards, not FCC).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj-q46VkqD_AhVpgGoFHV0sDpkQFnoECA0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fcc.gov%2Ffile%2F18918%2Fdownload&usg=AOvVaw3N5wi-zrpSHMne4-BHPc7k

Also take into account that governments promulgate the impression that cellular service is as secure as plain old wired telephone systems (effectively point-to-point after the switches have routed the connection) and minimize the concept that cell phones ARE just two-way radios. The first approach the FCC took was to require scanning radios to automatically block out cell phone frequencies (government agencies are able to obtain high-end models without the blocks). Adding encryption protocols to the data stream is a natural step above that to prevent intercepts.

 

 

[WQAI363]

On 5/28/2023 at 10:26 PM, DirtyCitizen said:

I've heard differing opinions on the topic but using codes, kinda the same way HAMs use Qcodes for shortening communications, could you integrate basic shorthand for your family into an emergency preparedness plan? I'm pretty sure if you need your Emergency plan you won't really have to much time to worry about the FCC. Practicing shorthand Like fire and rescue/police officers and so on in your family I'm thinking may be a bit of a problem because you don't have a way to post it on the web it may be considered encryption instead of data packets. I know you can send encrypted mssgs over Cellular networks and that's just a higher frequency so is it an outdated law? if you're not causing interference I don't see the problem but it seems to be a sensitive subject and in the case of say a violent mob using radio to monitor say Bernie Sanders supporters, you really can't effectively organize an egress out of a dangerous area.. and practice makes perfect so I would say the ability to practice is pretty important.. Just looking for input. and not a Mittens or B. Sanders fan.

I don't want to give the wrong advice because someone will disagree with me. Of course, that's what makes our nation unique, each of us is entitled to our own opinion. This may sound weird coming from me but is really necessary to use codes on non-commercial or non-public safety systems. I can see in situations where a group of volunteers are working in community service events or disaster relief, but normal rag - chew or in a convoy, probably not.

[DirtyCitizen]

I get all of that and you guys are coming from an area of day to day talk and so on assuming that you have a government or responsible overarching power to come save you but I was thinking of a situation like the "Top Gear" team found themselves in when traveling through South America(their Radio traffic was observed to coordinate an attack on their convoy soon after a dispute between the UK and this other country), As Americans there are a lot of places where both the government and the people either see us as a potential payday and  don't have the resources or decency to help us. Is there a shorthand that isn't widely known that's available that can be used for safety when traveling? With the majority of RF traffic being encrypted already I can't think of any reason the FCC wouldn't already have some consideration for use case in an unfriendly area. Coordination between drivers doesn't have to be rocket science but if you work for the "news" and youre an independent contractor who can't coordinate under an FCC business band while traveling or simply moving through a religious based government's country and you are not the same religion what would you guys recommend? Besides a new job or not leaving the US?

In my experience traveling with a Large group leaves them with plenty of time to study things like this. it would probably make for a better and happier crew giving them something they can study that isn't in a book that might make them road-sick.  I was just looking for the source material or if making it myself would be alright and if you incorporate that in your travel plan's how would you use it on the radio?(Like saying, "Lets head to location B") I know with workers/Journalists/large tour groups or military families traveling abroad DHS and our embassy tells them to communicate in code/trigger words and keep things pretty close to the chest.(not specifically on the radio) but I'm a bit new to GMRS. I've been with groups traveling in and out of country quite a bit but I never really used the CBs and other radios they had more then just in passing to talk to a family member or while driving, if anyone has any help experience on the matter please let me know. There are some places in India we traveled where it would have been pretty handy to have had something like that planned ahead.

Edited July 9, 2023 by DirtyCitizen
splellingg mistakez

[SteveShannon]

4 minutes ago, DirtyCitizen said:

I get all of that and you guys are coming from an area of day to day talk and so on assuming that you have a government or responsible overarching power to come save you but I was thinking of a situation like the "Top Gear" team found themselves in when traveling through South America(their Radio traffic was observed to coordinate an attack on their convoy soon after a dispute between the UK and this other country), As Americans there are a lot of places where both the government and the people either see us as a potential payday and  don't have the resources or decency to help us. Is there a shorthand that isn't widely known that's available that can be used for safety when traveling? With the majority of RF traffic being encrypted already I can't think of any reason the FCC wouldn't already have some consideration for use case in an unfriendly area. Coordination between drivers doesn't have to be rocket science but if you work for the news and your an independent contractor who can't coordinate under an FCC business band while traveling or simply moving through a religious based government's country and you are not the same religion what you guys recommend? Besides a new job or not leaving the US?

In my experience traveling with a Large group leaves them with plenty of time to study things like this. it would probably make for a better and happier crew giving them something they can study that isn't in a book that might make them road-sick.  I was just looking for the source material or if making it myself would be allright and if you incorporate that in your travel plan's how would you use it on the radio?(Like saying, "Lets head to location B") I know with workers/Journalists/large tour groups or military families traveling abroad DHS and our embassy tells them to communicate in code/trigger words and keep things pretty close to the chest.(not specifically on the radio) but I'm a bit new to GMRS. I've been with groups traveling in and out of country quite a bit but I never really used the CBs and other radios they had more then just in passing to talk to a family member or while driving so I if anyone has any help experience on the matter please let me know. There are some places in India we traveled where it would have been pretty handy to have had something like that planned ahead.

Your GMRS license only allows use within the United States.  Likewise the FCC rules and regulations for GMRS only apply to licensed use within the United States.  Security communications when traveling in other countries is a completely different subject that requires a good deal of planning and preparation before traveling (and probably input from local contractors.)

[DirtyCitizen]

3 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Your GMRS license only allows use within the United States.  Likewise the FCC rules and regulations for GMRS only apply to licensed use within the United States.  Security communications when traveling in other countries is a completely different subject that requires a good deal of planning and preparation before traveling (and probably input from local contractors.)

I don't really have money to pay "Contractors" however skilled they might be, also I still don't really want to trust someone like that with my family's safety. And I am trying to do a fair bit of planning now. I know that we've all been enjoying this long lived peace for some time but with our own government expecting the "imminent collapse of infrastructure" in most countries in the next 5 years, the next 10-20 here in America I am hoping it'll just be some dumb plan that sits in a case in my garage or trunk of my car but odds are it won't be. It really sucks to talk about and I appreciate the input, thank you. I know a lot of countries recognize the GMRS liceanse for WARC bands as well

Before the 70s planning past a simple 72hour event was pretty commonplace but with communities more centered around Walmarts then churches in most of the East coast This is a trouble area in a long emergency situation. We went, in the past 80 years from Conservation of the population to continuity of government to continuity of assets to what we have now, something I really don't want to talk about because it's a Hard truth for a lot of people and hopefully just another chapter in our countries history so as we transition between the MARS era to whatever is ahead I'd like to have something in my back pocket for emergencies here in the states. out in Montana where I used to live it really wouldn't be something to cross my mind but here having to travel through Baltimore, D.C. or Richmond in any type of evacuation or movement there are a ton of Question marks and using the radio is a must in most situations.. doing so in a safe and protected manor is what I'm getting at. I know government can find you pretty easily if they need to but that isn't what I'm worried about. I'm more worried about stumbling upon a block party someone decides to throw for me if say the nuclear power plant that's 30 or so years over it's expiration decides to finally pull it's string or some other cascading event like we saw in texas but on a larger scale.  If anyone out there has any useful input it would be appreciated..

 

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, DirtyCitizen said:

I don't really have money to pay "Contractors" however skilled they might be, also I still don't really want to trust someone like that with my family's safety. And I am trying to do a fair bit of planning now. I know that we've all been enjoying this long lived peace for some time but with our own government expecting the "imminent collapse of infrastructure" in most countries in the next 5 years, the next 10-20 here in America I am hoping it'll just be some dumb plan that sits in a case in my garage or trunk of my car but odds are it won't be. It really sucks to talk about and I appreciate the input, thank you. I know a lot of countries recognize the GMRS liceanse for WARC bands as well

Before the 70s planning past a simple 72hour event was pretty commonplace but with communities more centered around Walmarts then churches in most of the East coast This is a trouble area in a long emergency situation. We went, in the past 80 years from Conservation of the population to continuity of government to continuity of assets to what we have now, something I really don't want to talk about because it's a Hard truth for a lot of people and hopefully just another chapter in our countries history so as we transition between the MARS era to whatever is ahead I'd like to have something in my back pocket for emergencies here in the states. out in Montana where I used to live it really wouldn't be something to cross my mind but here having to travel through Baltimore, D.C. or Richmond in any type of evacuation or movement there are a ton of Question marks and using the radio is a must in most situations.. doing so in a safe and protected manor is what I'm getting at. I know government can find you pretty easily if they need to but that isn't what I'm worried about. I'm more worried about stumbling upon a block party someone decides to throw for me if say the nuclear power plant that's 30 or so years over it's expiration decides to finally pull it's string or some other cascading event like we saw in texas but on a larger scale.  If anyone out there has any useful input it would be appreciated..

 

I suspect you’re confusing GMRS and Amateur Radio.  The WARC bands are amateur radio (30 meters, 17 meters, and 12 meters) and have nothing to do with GMRS.  It is possible to travel and communicate in other countries with an amateur radio license.

[DirtyCitizen]

 

38 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I suspect you’re confusing GMRS and Amateur Radio.  The WARC bands are amateur radio (30 meters, 17 meters, and 12 meters) and have nothing to do with GMRS.  It is possible to travel and communicate in other countries with an amateur radio license.

WARC bands are "reserved for non contest communications by Licensed or Amateur radio operators. your GMRS liceanse is recognized by certain countries for this band. now be very careful even though a government might say it's fine there are definitely some freqs  out there who FEEL they own them. Luckily Feelings don't dictate reality. Check with your local consul government or hire a "Contractor" if you're unsure.. Please refer to the last sentence of the last message if youre going to post here please make it relevant to the above topic. thank you though, for you consideration. don't mean to sound short I just don't have a lot of time to talk about other things, I made this thread because of my concern for Safety.

[SteveShannon]

12 minutes ago, DirtyCitizen said:

 

WARC bands are "reserved for non contest communications by Licensed or Amateur radio operators. your GMRS liceanse is recognized by certain countries for this band. now be very careful even though a government might say it's fine there are definitely some freqs  out there who FEEL they own them. Luckily Feelings don't dictate reality. Check with your local consul government or hire a "Contractor" if you're unsure.. Please refer to the last sentence of the last message if youre going to post here please make it relevant to the above topic. thank you though, for you consideration. don't mean to sound short I just don't have a lot of time to talk about other things, I made this thread because of my concern for Safety.

What countries recognize a US GMRS license?

Which of those countries allow communications on the WARC bands with only a  US GMRS license?

If these questions cause you to become frustrated because you “don’t have a lot of time to talk about other things” you may have come to the wrong place. We’re all about talking about other things.

[DirtyCitizen]

I really appreciate the comment about the 10 codes earlier. that was helpful. Thanks

 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, DirtyCitizen said:

[...] if youre going to post here please make it relevant to the above topic. [...]

"Can you legally integrate/pratice using codes into your Emercency Plan for coms?"

I guess that question has been answered above by several posts - and I understand that you might not be happy about the limitations of coded transmissions on GMRS.

As you expanded the topic to international travel with families into international "hostile" territories, those are outside FCC jurisdiction and while some reciprocity exists on some frequencies, local law rules!

At the end of the day, during immediate emergencies, all bets are off and the least concern will be a violation of the terms of your radio license!

For the sake of your family and if you are that concerned, would it be possible to follow state department recommendations and not travel to non-hostile territories instead?

 

[Radioguy7268]

If you think using codes will "protect" you - then have at it.  If you're really looking at things from a SHTF perspective, analog radios are problematic to begin with, especially if you're in a single frequency/channelized domain.  If I have bad intentions, I really don't need to know specifically what you're talking about, I can pretty much determine how many different people I hear talking, and I can easily triangulate your signal to figure out where you are. 

 

[WRUU653]

8 hours ago, DirtyCitizen said:

Top Gear" team found themselves in when traveling through South America(their Radio traffic was observed to coordinate an attack on their convoy soon after a dispute between the UK and this other country

If you call 27 years before soon after…

Lesson here is when in someone else’s country you have to play by their rules and it’s a good idea to bring some respect and decorum with you  

 

6 hours ago, DirtyCitizen said:

Please refer to the last sentence of the last message if youre going to post here please make it relevant to the above topic. thank you though, for you consideration. don't mean to sound short I just don't have a lot of time to talk about other things,

While you did start the thread this is still a public forum. Respectfully I would submit just because you start a conversation doesn’t mean you can dictate where it goes. It’s not your time it’s ours. 

[DirtyCitizen]

Hi, just checking back...

8 hours ago, WRXD372 said:

"Can you legally integrate/pratice using codes into your Emercency Plan for coms?"

I guess that question has been answered above by several posts - and I understand that you might not be happy about the limitations of coded transmissions on GMRS.

As you expanded the topic to international travel with families into international "hostile" territories, those are outside FCC jurisdiction and while some reciprocity exists on some frequencies, local law rules!

At the end of the day, during immediate emergencies, all bets are off and the least concern will be a violation of the terms of your radio license!

For the sake of your family and if you are that concerned, would it be possible to follow state department recommendations and not travel to non-hostile territories instead?

 

Just wondering but you seem to know a lot. Are the people transmitting in what sounds like morse code/or really slow APRS on gmrs breaking the law and exceeding their "Limitations"?  Also the post wasn't just about GMRS, though it is of interest I appreciate the earlier comments(about the Motorola in the 900Miggagodzillaherts range) and anyone's time who was trying to be helpful. Also I checked and the State department has made no such Recommendation Not to travel to NON-Hostile territories. some people here in this country have family outside of this country and traveling safely is a concern yes but so are things that smell like pooo, I'd rather clean up whatever stinks or avoid stepping in it then cutting off my own nose as your logic would suggest.

7 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

If you think using codes will "protect" you - then have at it.  If you're really looking at things from a SHTF perspective, analog radios are problematic to begin with, especially if you're in a single frequency/channelized domain.  If I have bad intentions, I really don't need to know specifically what you're talking about, I can pretty much determine how many different people I hear talking, and I can easily triangulate your signal to figure out where you are. 

 

I appreciate whatever it is you did there with your comment I just understand NONE of it. I'm trying here so stick with me. while I'm protecting my family and trying to move them to safety YOU from my transmission between vehicles will come down from your lizard throne(abandoning anyone/thing you care about) and set upon me some form of justice for my assumed "Bad intentions" (of feeding and protecting my family?) 

This is a perfect example of my query(I'm sure you didn't mean anything that bad by it I guess your dreams of living atop trash mountain as the world burns just get the best of you.) But I am more worried about Idiots trying to figure out where I'm going rather then where I have been. I don't have money for an operations command center to put in a rainy day trunk I'm just doing my best with what I have here and trying to follow the law in our often lawless country..

 

3 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

If you call 27 years before soon after…

Lesson here is when in someone else’s country you have to play by their rules and it’s a good idea to bring some respect and decorum with you  

 

While you did start the thread this is still a public forum. Respectfully I would submit just because you start a conversation doesn’t mean you can dictate where it goes. It’s not your time it’s ours. 

In terms of political tensions a single generation is VERY Soon After and I care not how you waste your time. Please try not to waste mine. and I'll show you the same respect... I guess I was simply trying to find Reason where it simply does not exist. so the people using aprs and Morse code on GMRS are doing so illegally? 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, DirtyCitizen said:

[...] some people here in this country have family outside of this country and traveling safely is a concern yes but so are things that smell like pooo, I'd rather clean up whatever stinks or avoid stepping in it then cutting off my own nose as your logic would suggest.

[...] while I'm protecting my family and trying to move them to safety YOU from my transmission between vehicles will come down from your lizard throne(abandoning anyone/thing you care about) and set upon me some form of justice for my assumed "Bad intentions" (of feeding and protecting my family?) 

[...] I'm just doing my best with what I have here and trying to follow the law in our often lawless country..

[...] I guess I was simply trying to find Reason where it simply does not exist. so the people using aprs and Morse code on GMRS are doing so illegally? 

 

It seems that there is much more to your interests and question than the use of code on certain frequencies. - Throughout, we seem to have missed some underlying aspects of your question.

Overall: I appreciate your concern for the safety of your family! and I applaud your effort and level of preparedness.

With that said, I assume that you are very aware that - in case of emergency - all bets are off and we do what we need to do !!!

In any case, what you pick up with your radio could be all kind of transmissions -- I am no longer surprised about the things people do on all kinds of frequencies ... (shall we blame amazon for cheap import radios  )

 

[Radioguy7268]

In a SHTF / Post apocalyptic scenario the bad guys you are trying to protect your family from are going to be keenly interested to know who is trying to move valuable items. Value can be subjective, but a couple of yahoos getting on their GMRS radios and talking in code is more likely to draw attention than to deflect it.

I don't think I ever said that trying to protect your family was a bad intention, but the people with truly bad intentions are not going to care how good your GMRS code ettiquete is.

You have fun though - and by all means, keep us informed of your progress and the best code words to use. Things have been dead over here on mygrms forums lately.