HTs and mobiles with full control of memory slots within the bounds of Part 95

[WRXN668]

So I have these Tidradio TD-H5 radios.  They're OK when there's only one party or group on simplex, but if there are multiple groups or repeaters then they aren't so great.  As seems common in this generic-frame-locked-for-GMRS model, the manufacturer seems to have defined channels by simply configuring memory slots for the 22, then defined eight memory slots for the standard repeaters/shift with no tone, then defined three sets of eight for those same standard repeaters/shift with the ability to configure tone.  The problem is that in order to preconfigure the use of tones for simplex for selective calling I would have to overwrite the memory slot for the stock/toneless channel I'm configuring, because the three sets of eight memory slots I referred to have frequency-shift baked in where I cannot change them.  While I have the ability to go into the menu for a given memory slot 1-22 for channel 1-22 to change tx and rx tone, I do not expect that a young or old family member will readily be able to do this.  Meaning if we're convoying and not using tone, but find that channel use is heavy enough that we need to switch so tone squelch avoids us having to listen to other groups, I can't just tell the rest of the group to switch from Channel-X to DIY-X using the up/down keys.

What ideally I'd like are mobile and HTs that can be programmed for both selective calling on simplex (ie CTCSS and/or DCS tone/tone-squelch) and busy channel lockout, without having to overwrite the default 22 channel memory slots.  I would like the keep memory slots for channels 1-22 without any other programming intact, plus be able to save frequencies for channels 1-22 in higher-number slots with tone and busy-lockout without having to have repeater shift enabled.

Any suggestions for radios that can do this would be appreciated.  Unfortunately my e-mails to Tidradio to seek assistance with this have gone unanswered, I expect to be returning the TD-H5s shortly while I still can.

[wayoverthere]

I would look to wouxun. Maybe users with the 905, 935, and kg1000g can chime in, but I know my 805g will let me use all 128 memory slots as I please within bounds for gmrs, or receive only outside that (I want to say it's 400-470mhz) on uhf.

[back4more70]

I can only speak for the Wouxun KG-935G Plus (since my KG-UV9D Mate is not GMRS only), but I seem to be able to use all 999 memory slots for RX/TX whatever I want, as long as they are within the FRS/GMRS frequency band.  I imagine the KG-905G (less expensive option) will allow the same.

 

If you want simpler/cheaper, I think Baofeng UV-9G will allow full use of all slots, but I am not 100% on that.

[WRUA262]

I have both the Wouxun KG-935G and KG-UV9G Pro. Both of these HTs have numerous slots available (999 slots) for programming GMRS (TX & RX) and/or HAM/MURS/Aircraft/ etc (RX only) as well as any PL tones for both simplex and repeater GMRS channels. Great radios and very versatile.

[axorlov]

In addition to Wouxun, any commercial Part 90/95 radio will allow configuration of all memory slots. Many radios have 128 or more channels to program. I use Kenwood TK-3170. With buttons on the front panel programmed for "home channel" and "reserve home channel" and option to have busy channel lockout it could be very safe and reliable radio to give to 5yo or somebody who has no idea about radio.

[nokones]

Your radio is a 250 channel radio. Is there a reason why you can't program channels 23-30 with the eight GMRS channels with a CTCSS Tone/DCS Code or channels 23-29 with FRS channels 1-7 with tones/codes, and if you have to switch channels to CTCSS/DCS protected channel, you tell them to go up the number of channels you want to switch to.  If you're concerned that a young or older person may have some challenges, you give them some training so they can learn and do it right. Obviously, they've had some training to adjust the volume, PT-T (push to talk and release to listen) and they must be doing it right by now, then it's time to train them to switch channels on their own. They can't learn any younger.

[WRUU653]

You can load up memory slots on both the Wouxun KG-935G+ and the KG-S88G. Both are good radios.

[WRXN668]

6 hours ago, nokones said:

Your radio is a 250 channel radio

I've confirmed experimentally that memory slots above 54, ie ones not hard-set by the manufacturer, can be programmed, but one cannot transmit on them.  At least not on 101, which I tried to set up as an anternate channel 1 with tones.  It will listen, but PTT doesn't do anything.

9 hours ago, WRXE944 said:

It's the difference between a $35 HT (certified for GMRS) and a >$99 HT.

I suppose so.  I'm wondering who actually manufactures the TD-H5.  It appears that the identical design is sold branded as numerous GMRS radios, and is also sold as an entry-level ham radio sponsored by QRZ.com.  Given that it can receive on both 2m and 70cm it makes one think that it was actually designed as a ham radio first, complete with the extended ranges on both bands and the large number of memory slots, but hobbled to turn it into a GMRS radio.

It would have been nice if it had a few more features, and I don't mean a flashlight with a dedicated button or an FM radio or weather radio easy-access mode either.

Will further keep an eye out for GMRS.  I would rather not pay $150 per radio for HTs.  Anyone know of any mobiles that have these sorts of selective calling and busy channel lockout that's actually easy to use?

[WRPL700]

The Wouxun KG-XS20G+ is a great little 20 watt mobile for $199.  It has busy channel lock out and up to 999 custom channels that you can transmit on.  I have it and its big brother the KG-1000G+ and both are great.  One of the things I like to do before buying a radio is go to the website and download the manual and read through it first.

[WRUU653]

55 minutes ago, WRPL700 said:

One of the things I like to do before buying a radio is go to the website and download the manual and read through it first.

 

This is good advice. I do this too. I have even download the software ahead of a purchase if the radio isn’t supported in chirp… 

[WRXN668]

3 hours ago, WRPL700 said:

One of the things I like to do before buying a radio is go to the website and download the manual and read through it first.

Surprisingly I couldn't readily find the manual online other than references to it at those places that only want to give you one page at a time.  I hadn't sought-out the manual before buying, but attempting to use the manual yesterday to program memory slots it wasn't really all that helpful.  It did not, for example, cover that slots above 54 are locked out from transmit, regardless if the config as written complies with Part 95 rules.

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

This is good advice. I do this too. I have even download the software ahead of a purchase if the radio isn’t supported in chirp… 

I buy mainly commercial Kenwood HT’s. If I find a radio model I don’t currently own but thinking about buying I’ll research it first. Get the brochure, which is good for a summary of features for the specific sub-model types.  

The second is getting the programming software. If I can’t get it then I just don’t bother with getting the radio. Usually without the manufacturer’s software to program it then it’s just an expensive brick.

Also want to make sure that items like battery packs and chargers are easily available too. Some people have purchased nice radios but the battery packs are almost nonexistent.

[WRUU653]

6 hours ago, Lscott said:

The second is getting the programming software. If I can’t get it then I just don’t bother with getting the radio

Exactly! I use a Mac but have an old laptop with windows and I like to know ahead of time that I can use the software before buying the radio.

OP’s dilemma is I think the reason why one starts collecting radios. With the first one you find out what it does and doesn’t do and get to know about what more you would like, then you want something that does something else or something more, then you realize that one over there does something you didn’t even know you were interested in. The next thing you know your looking for a support group for compulsive radio purchases

[Lscott]

56 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

The next thing you know your looking for a support group for compulsive radio purchases

You don’t want to know how many HT’s I have.

[wayoverthere]

30 minutes ago, Lscott said:

You don’t want to know how many HT’s I have.

I plead the 5th on that answer

[back4more70]

1 hour ago, WRUU653 said:

The next thing you know your looking for a support group for compulsive radio purchases

I recently downsized from 15 HTs to 7, and I am pretty proud of myself.

[Lscott]

46 minutes ago, back4more70 said:

I recently downsized from 15 HTs to 7, and I am pretty proud of myself.

That wouldn’t be noticeable in my collection.

[WRXN668]

I have some hobbies where I have an extreme excess of materiel or supplies.

When I got into amateur radio 20+ years ago I decided that this was not going to be such a hobby.  Don't get me wrong, I have more stuff than I routinely use, including commercial-grade test equipment like a Bird wattmeter and a Bird dummy load, but I haven't acquired radios in excess.  If anything I have too few supplies, as I've had to order NMO/UHF/N/BNC/SMA adapters, mounts, cables, and some antenna parts.  It helps that I can now afford this stuff much more than I could as a twenty-something.

I guess I'm treating this hobby like I treat some of the more expensive or larger tools.  I have just one each of tools like the table saw, the miter saw, the bandsaw, the MIG welder, the 2-post lift, that sort.  Likewise I have one 2m HT, one 2m mobile, one 10m mobile, and the pair of these GMRS radios.  I don't feel compelled to have many redundant radios in the same form factor and band as each other, and for what redundancies I would have, they're based on practical use like handing to family members that are entitled through my license to use them.  I don't feel compelled to have them just to have them, they need to serve a purpose.

[wayoverthere]

2 hours ago, WRXN668 said:

 I don't feel compelled to have many redundant radios in the same form factor and band as each other, and for what redundancies I would have, they're based on practical use like handing to family members that are entitled through my license to use them.  I don't feel compelled to have them just to have them, they need to serve a purpose.

In my case it wasn't so much a lot of redundancy as upgrading equipment (baofeng to ft4x to ft5d), and chasing bands and modes, and some of it that single band LMR gear...DMR/MotoTrbo and P25 in both VHF and UHF, C4FM, wanting in-built APRS, plus 1.25, 6m, and 33cm.  With antennas, it's been more chasing functionality, or adapting to limitations. i am finding myself wanting to pare down a little, though...start shifting some of the stuff for projects that never got off the ground.

when i really dove into the hobby, everything was shut down, so antenna heights weren't an issue, as office days started up again, i had to either get used to folding the antenna every time, or swapping out (and finding one short enough to work), and later relocating with new limitations.  It has kind of come in handy as i shuffle equipment between vehicles, though....the antenna that was slightly too long on the truck will be a good fit on the better half's car, and can be joined by the compact radio that was in the now-departed beater, without needing to purchase new gear.

[WRXN668]

Digital modes on amateur radio are something that feels unsettled.  I know of mutually-incompatible D-STAR, Fusion, and DMR, and I think there are others that I'm just not acquainted with.

Last weekend I bought a Radio Shack HTX-242, a 2m 45W mobile, for short-term use in my truck.  I went with it because I wanted to see what having a mobile would be like versus just using HTs.  I went with with a radio that's a quarter-century old because technology-wise it's a lot like my Alinco DJ-195 that I bought as a brand new ham, and because it was cheap.  I paid $60 for that working radio.  I'll end up spending far more on just an antenna.

I want the digital scene to settle out before I invest serious money in radios that do it.  I definitely understand the advantages in eliminating any sort of background static so long as the receiving station picks up enough packets to reassemble the voice, and that the amount of bandwidth needed is much smaller than analog for the same sort, and that there are ancillary life-safety benefits like the ability to send GPS and to maintain some kind of carrier even when not talking, but until there's a dominant player it's difficult to justify spending upwards of four figures on radios when one's chosen system might go the way of CED, Betamax, or HD-DVD.

It looks like there's no intention to allow digital modes on GMRS, which given the small number of channels and shared spectrum with FRS makes sense.  If there is a desire for digital modes on this sort of license it would probably make sense for the FCC to carve out a new bit of spectrum to use for it that isn't shared with another service, and given that GMRS is not really intended for the sort of experimentation that amateur is, declare a codec for mandatory use so that radio manufacturers are all interoperable.

In the meantime still looking at GMRS mobiles.  I'm thinking remote-head, high power, closer to the 50W max than the 15W of some of the mobile Midlands.

Anyone know of a good diplexer that can separate-out the GMRS band or even the entire 60-70cm band from the rest, or that would separate-out commercial FM 88MHz to 108MHz?  I am looking at replacing the factory car radio mast with a communications antenna and using a diplexer to split off commercial broadcast radio from communications so that one antenna can do both.  Even if the antenna is a poor match for commercial broadcast it would likely still be good enough.

[Lscott]

12 minutes ago, WRXN668 said:

Digital modes on amateur radio are something that feels unsettled.  I know of mutually-incompatible D-STAR, Fusion, and DMR, and I think there are others that I'm just not acquainted with.

There is another commercial modes you didn't list, NXDN and P25 Phase 1 and P25 Phase 2. Then there is one that's used commercially in the EU, dPMR and the tier-1 version for their license free dPMR446 service. dPMR isn't used in North American to any great degree that I've been able to discover to date. dPMR and NXDN are very similar but use a different protocol. 

https://dpmrassociation.org/downloads/2019-docs/Whitepaper-4-Level-FSK-FDMA-6.25-kHz-Technology-V1-2019.pdf

https://kenwoodcommunications.co.uk/files/file/comms/uk/pmr446/PMR446-White-Paper-V6_18AUG2016_JT_KB.pdf

Then there is the real oddball M17. It's billed as an amateur only mode using all open source code including for the voice codec.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M17_(amateur_radio)

I just had some email exchange with the programmer for "repeaterbook.com". I had asked if he could include dPMR as one of the special modes to search by. He said he would look at it. He also mentioned that since adding in M17 there has been nearly ZERO activity or interest in it to date.

 

 

[Lscott]

28 minutes ago, WRXN668 said:

If there is a desire for digital modes on this sort of license it would probably make sense for the FCC to carve out a new bit of spectrum to use for it that isn't shared with another service

I had a paper I wrote up that covers my idea in a bit more detail in another thread. I think the issue you mentioned is addressed it it.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/5720-new-repeater-channels-for-gmrs-in-2024/page/2/#comment-57605

28 minutes ago, WRXN668 said:

GMRS is not really intended for the sort of experimentation

People get hung up on thinking that adding digital voice to GMRS is about "experimentation", no it's not. It's about quality of service which you did mention in a round about way earlier in your post. 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRXN668 said:

Digital modes on amateur radio are something that feels unsettled.  I know of mutually-incompatible D-STAR, Fusion, and DMR, and I think there are others that I'm just not acquainted with.

snip….

I want the digital scene to settle out before I invest serious money in radios that do it. 

You’ll be waiting for a long time. One reason for amateur radio is for people to experiment with new technologies.  Certainly a mode might be left by the wayside, but it generally takes many years.  I would look at commercial radios to see if any settling has occurred.

[WRXN668]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

People get hung up on thinking that adding digital voice to GMRS is about "experimentation", no it's not. It's about quality of service which you did mention in a round about way earlier in your post. 

I suspect that a fair number of licensed GMRS operators would actually be happier as hams.

GMRS reminds me of two historical licenses, the old amateur radio novice license, and the original citizen's band license.  The point of these licenses were to let radio operators get their feet wet, as users of radios, and principally for relatively short-range communications.  These licenses were not about modding equipment, they were about just using off-the-shelf stuff.  For CB this was the intended end-state, just reliable 2-way communication.  For Amateur Novice, an introduction to see if there was further interest to level-up to more advanced aspects on higher privilege licenses for both more experimentation and longer ranges.

With the hellscape that CB became, GMRS seems to be a retry.  Buy a license, buy off-the-shelf part-certified equipment, and operate on a limited number of channels.  But this time the FCC picked a bit of spectrum that doesn't lend itself to distance in the way that 11 meters does, so there's less incentive to try to run massive amplifiers or collinear arrays.  But some of the intentions by some GMRS license holders to operate outside the bounds of what the Service permits seems like it's taking things back in the direction of CB again, when really those who do this would probably be much happier if they license as amateurs.  The test is not that hard, and the threshold to pass is surprisingly low.  I passed my no-code Tech in the early noughties using only then-freely-available information I found on the fledgling Internet and through just discussion with friends.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

I would look at commercial radios to see if any settling has occurred.

IMHO that's driven by money. The cost of P25 radios is crazy. Looking at the used market I can buy a used digital commercial radio for just about any voice mode, except for P25, for less. 

Example, Kenwood's new HT's, the NX-5000 series, comes with NXDN as standard. It can be configured to do DMR and P25 by simply writing a license key to the radio to enable the feature. The attached image is from their 2022 catalog. The cost for just P25 Phase 1 conventional is staggering compared to DMR. Then if you want to add trunking for P25 you'll need some deep pockets and a fat checkbook.

Because of the costs if P25 is not mandated by the state, or some other agency, people are opting for either DMR or NXDN. They are the lower cost options.

To gauge who uses what mode a search of the following database returns some interesting results. The primary users of P25 seems to be various Federal, state, county and city governments.

https://digitalfrequencysearch.com/index.php

[KAF6045]

28 minutes ago, WRXN668 said:

GMRS reminds me of two historical licenses, the old amateur radio novice license, and the original citizen's band license.  The point of these licenses were to let

Historically, GMRS is the descendant of the old Class A Citizen's Radio Service. CB is the descendant of the Class D Citizen's Radio Service. This is reflected in the pre-2017 rewrite of the regulations: GMRS was Part 95 Subpart A (subpart A is now an overall set of regulations for all Part 95 and GMRS is subpart E), CB was (and still is) Part 95 Subpart D.

Back in ancient days, even CB was focused on /family/ use under a family license -- some channels could only be used for intra-license communications, a limited number were available for inter-license communications (9/emergency, 11, for example). At least CB had 23 channels (at that time) -- and regulations permitted traffic up to 150 miles (NVIS propagation, short skip). GMRS only had 8 main frequencies -- but a licensee had to pick two of them when applying for a license and could not use the other six.