An interesting proposal for GMRS+

[UncleYoda]

Even though Amateur has 420-450 officially, the practical use part is 441-449.  

 

One good reason for HAMs to use GMRS is communicating with non-HAMs.

 

I recommend the owner rename this forum to HAM-HATE-FORUM.

[Lscott]

45 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I recommend the owner rename this forum to HAM-HATE-FORUM.

Fortunately there are only a few of those kind of people here.

[SteveShannon]

Every time I read posts like some of the ones on the previous page I am very thankful that my experience has been diametrically opposed. 
By an overwhelming majority the hams I have met have been generous and helpful. Although I don’t have the experience some of them have they have adopted me and others like me, encouraging us to learn, showing us how they have built their ham shacks, how they have constructed their antennas, and telling us about their own histories. 
I’m truly sorry for the people who have not had such a good experience. 
I feel even sorrier for those who have become embittered. 

[WRQI583]

13 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

One good reason for HAMs to use GMRS is communicating with non-HAMs.

 

I totally agree. It is one of the reasons I invest in GMRS instead of Ham. My issue is Hams coming down onto GMRS to change it into Ham Radio. GMRS is analog with a certain bandwidth. If Hams dont like that, then they can go back to Ham Radio. GMRS needs to remain simple due to the fact that it is meant for people who are not radio geeks and who just need a simple means of communications, not a Ham Radio atmosphere. Many of the people I have met on GMRS and even FRS get utterly confused when you say repeater. Given that fact, they dont need anything more complicated. Just keep it simple. Overall, it is a very good tool to be used for non-hams and Hams to communicate. 

[SteveShannon]

43 minutes ago, WRQI583 said:

I totally agree. It is one of the reasons I invest in GMRS instead of Ham. My issue is Hams coming down onto GMRS to change it into Ham Radio. GMRS is analog with a certain bandwidth. If Hams dont like that, then they can go back to Ham Radio. GMRS needs to remain simple due to the fact that it is meant for people who are not radio geeks and who just need a simple means of communications, not a Ham Radio atmosphere. Many of the people I have met on GMRS and even FRS get utterly confused when you say repeater. Given that fact, they dont need anything more complicated. Just keep it simple. Overall, it is a very good tool to be used for non-hams and Hams to communicate. 

The proposal mentioned in the first post of this thread is not something supported by many hams, as far as I can tell.  I certainly don't support it. I don't want or expect to be given access to GMRS simply because I'm a ham. I can (and did) pay for a GMRS license just like anyone else. Nor do I want GMRS to be made more like amateur radio.  Personally, I want GMRS to remain mostly as it is, easy for anyone to become licensed, simple to access, compatible with FRS, and with reasonable limits on power output. 

If people want to experiment in order to learn more about radio than needed for GMRS, they should study, take the test, and get their amateur radio license. 

And quit whining about the tests.

[WRYZ926]

I have to agree. I hold both and don't want to see GMRS turn into HAM LITE.

The Elmers around me are more than willing to help anyone no matter if they hold an amateur license, GMRS license or both. I too am happy to help others.

We have one member of our amateur radio club that is happy with just having his GMRS license for right now. We have been helping him get setup for mobile and a base station.

[wrci350]

There's a huge difference between "some guy who is a ham proposed this" and "hams want this".  Apparently A ham wants it; that doesn't mean that ALL hams want it!

I am also fortunate to live in an area with a friendly, welcoming, and active ham community.  Yes, there are some repeaters that see little or no traffic, but there are others that are quite busy (both 2m and 70cm) and there is at least one informal net every night for those who are into ragchewing.  Sure, a lot of local hams are into contesting (some very much so) but that's not universally true.  Oh, and there's at least one "ham radio" breakfast or lunch each week.

As far as GMRS becoming ham-lite, it seems to me that a lot of the folks setting up all these linked repeaters and holding ragchew nets on GMRS are NOT hams.

YMMV, of course.

[WSAG543]

I'm happy to see so many oppose the GMRS+ proposal. I have held an FCC license since 2005 but it only provided limited aerospace and marine capabilities. I only recently acquired a GMRS license and had been a long time FRS user. I don't mind the licensing fee, but I was surprised by the need to use callsigns at the end of a transmission or at 15 minute intervals. Most of the individuals in my area that cause trouble (if you can call it that) are using GMRS radios (or Ham radios) like they are an FRS walkie-talkie. They rarely use call signs so one could assume they are unlicensed. This means that to enforce the law you would have to locate them and file a complaint. I would argue that callsigns serve a nice function for identifying individuals in round table discussions but serve little utility in actually enforcing the law. Beyond this, I have been surprised at the lack of ability to use digital technology like FHSS or other types of encoding on GMRS. The need to use plain language without attempts to deceive is also puzzling. Meanwhile I can happily use my fleet of DTR radios with nearly 100% privacy. Seems like many of these GMRS laws are a solution looking for a problem. The QA manager in me will of course follow the laws, no matter how ridiculous and unconstitutional they may seem. It's just that it would be nice to have a little more freedom and privacy without having to go to a corporate license or use DLR/DTR 900 MHz radios. I do think that GMRS could very well (and probably should) end up as a license by rule service like FRS, MURS, 900 ISM, etc, though I know the consensus on here oppose this.

[WRYZ926]

The need to use plain language without attempts to decieve also goes for amateur radio too. And no new digital mode for amateur radio can be used without first making it public per the FCC.

Business bands and public service band fall under different rules than amateur and GMRS bands.

[WRQI583]

9 hours ago, WSAG543 said:

Beyond this, I have been surprised at the lack of ability to use digital technology like FHSS or other types of encoding on GMRS.

It is simply because GMRS is a simple radio service for people who just need a simple means of communication. It is geared towards business, family, friends, where getting a business radio license is either not worth it or impossible to get. From observing people either online or locally getting into GMRS, many are not radio smart. They are utterly confused the second you say "repeater". Could you imagine if you added DMR or some other sort of whacky form of communicating? I know Extra class Hams who's brains explode if you even plant a DMR radio in their hands, never mind trying to get them to upload an already programmed codeplug. Adding other modes into GMRS would only confuse and degrade the service. GMRS is meant to be simple for simple radio communications. Analog with simplex and repeater capability is more than enough. 

I suggest if Hams want to experiment with frequency hopping, encryption and who knows what new secret service mode of communicating is out there, how about petitioning the FCC to take the Ham bands from 6 meters on up and either allow experimentation of any sort of mode of operation or petition the FCC to take the bands from 6 meters on up and split them off from Ham Radio and make a new service similar to Ham radio but that allows the commercial world to enter in with its radio technology therefore allowing more experimentation of radio and making it more friendly towards those like myself who's interests border more on the commercial end of radio rather than the traditional Ham contesting end of radio? I guarantee you, you would attract a lot more people to the group of radio operators. This way, people could leave GMRS alone and stop trying to turn it into something it is not meant to be. Ham Radio on the bands from 6 meters and above are actually very restrictive when it comes to what you can experiment with and what modes you can use. In general, either the rules restrict you from experimenting or the Ham community themselves restrict you (depending on your location). 

If you want to experiment - use Ham Radio
If you want secure communications - use a cell phone.

[GreggInFL]

12 hours ago, WRQI583 said:

GMRS is meant to be simple for simple radio communications. Analog with simplex and repeater capability is more than enough. 
...

If you want to experiment - use Ham Radio
If you want secure communications - use a cell phone.

Agreed.

We spent the weekend with friends who do a lot of FRS on RVing and backcountry/hunting trips.  When the wife and I pullout out the GMRS HTs the questions started ("How come that antenna comes off?").

By the end of the conversation everyone was eager to upgrade.  The biggest problem was licensing; not that it was costly, but that it was so cumbersome.

"Well, first you need to establish an FRN, then you need to apply for a GMRS license..."

I loved one response: "Amazon should sell the license." Which is not a bad idea.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, GreggInFL said:

I loved one response: "Amazon should sell the license." Which is not a bad idea.

We’ll not exactly sell the licenses. One could offer a service where a small additional fee on top of the FCC application fee the service would do all the “paperwork” to get the license filed. Not much different than getting a ham license without the test. The VE’s take care of the paperwork details.

 

[GreggInFL]

17 hours ago, Lscott said:

We’ll not exactly sell the licenses. One could offer a service where a small additional fee on top of the FCC application fee the service would do all the “paperwork” to get the license filed. Not much different than getting a ham license without the test. The VE’s take care of the paperwork details.

 

Exactly, a middle man acting as agent.

In the group discussion I mentioned repeaters and everyone got glassy eyed except a friend who got his EE paper from MIT.  He has zero radio experience but after less than a minute of me explaining offsets, tones, 50W base stations and real antennas he got it.

He was curious about range so I invited him to stop by for a little demo.  Using the worse radio I could find (UV-5R w/stock rubber ducky antenna) I explained that if we hit the local repeater we'd “hear a hiss and Morse code.”  For someone trying to push a 2W FRS transmission through the woods he had a hard time believing the GMRS transmission was being bounced nearly forty miles – until we pulled up the map on this site.

Sorry to go off topic, but I found it interesting that while many here think that hams dipping “down” into GMRS business is not helpful, many FRS users would enjoy moving “up” to GMRS if the transition were made simpler, all with no interest in additional features.

[WRQI583]

22 hours ago, GreggInFL said:

hams dipping “down” into GMRS business is not helpful, many FRS users would enjoy moving “up” to GMRS if the transition were made simpler, all with no interest in additional features.

Hams are a great asset to GMRS/FRS just as long as they and the GMRS/FRS are kept in their respective places. When a Ham is on GMRS, they are now a GMRS operator. Its similar to a NASCAR driver also having a job driving taxi. When in the taxi, they are only a taxi driver transporting people, not a NASCAR driver racing a car around the track.

Currently, many Hams in my area who got their GMRS license are more than wonderful to those who need help getting on the air whether or not its over the air or on the Facebook page. We currently have a large linked system on analog and aside from a little VOX issue with someone's radio, it works wonderful and everyone is more than happy with what they have.

[WRUU653]

2 minutes ago, WRQI583 said:

Its similar to a NASCAR driver also having a job driving taxi

I would totally take that taxi!

 

…sorry I couldn’t resist 

[ULTRA2]

On 12/31/2023 at 10:43 AM, WRZY946 said:

GMRS is GMRS, amateur is amateur

Well said I couldn't have said it any better. Leave the GMRS spectrum alone!!!

[Blaise]

23 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

I would totally take that taxi!

Once...

[ULTRA2]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:49 PM, WRYZ926 said:

But no one uses 6m or 1.25m (220MHz) around here

The only reason 220MHz is not used here is because of Military bases radar system here in California 220MHz is totally dead here

[Lscott]

And more headaches with 70cm band.

https://www.arrlsacvalley.org/pave-paws

[wrci350]

21 hours ago, Lscott said:

And more headaches with 70cm band.

That installation has been there since 1980 I think, so this isn't anything new.   Ham radio is secondary on 70cm.

I think most hams that operate on 70cm use a mobile radio with a power supply, so they are running less than 50W anyways.  Even the shack-in-a-box radios that do 100W on HF only do 45 or 50 on 70cm.

[Lscott]

20 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

That installation has been there since 1980 I think, so this isn't anything new.   Ham radio is secondary on 70cm.

I think most hams that operate on 70cm use a mobile radio with a power supply, so they are running less than 50W anyways.  Even the shack-in-a-box radios that do 100W on HF only do 45 or 50 on 70cm.

Some of the problematic repeaters had to reduce power output to only a few watts to keep the military happy.

https://www.eham.net/article/16786

 

[wrci350]

The letter says that the affecting repeaters had to drop to 5W while further investigation was done.  The letter (and following thread) was from 2007.  I read your "more headaches for 70cm" post and thought this was some "new" problem ... which it is not.

[Lscott]

32 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

The letter says that the affecting repeaters had to drop to 5W while further investigation was done.  The letter (and following thread) was from 2007.  I read your "more headaches for 70cm" post and thought this was some "new" problem ... which it is not.

Of course there are the commercial interests that are always looking for away to poach more spectrum from various ham bands. 
 
There is all sorts of low power garbage around 433MHz.
 

A local company by me had interference issues with their alarm systems they sold. Contacted the FCC who traced it to a Ham ATV station a few miles away on a 16 storie apartment building. They shut it down and did their investigation. Found nothing wrong and allowed the station to resume operation. The head dude at the alarm company asked the station owner in for a talk. He asked how much power was being use. It was about 100 watts PEP. Then asked how much could they legally run. The reply was 1500 watts PEP. The dude nearly had heart failure from what the ATV station owner told me.

Then Chrysler had a similar issue with their tire pressure monitors they were testing. Got to a certain area on I-75 and they F’ed up from the same source. At least they figured out the cause and understood it was their problem to fix.

My post didn’t imply there were new problems with 70cm. Just wanted to point out another specific serious one the prior poster didn’t mention. I’ll also bet most hams have never heard about it.

I suspect many hams don’t know we are only secondary users on the band, and if they do who is primary. 

[WRUI365]

The 70CM band for Amateur radio covers 420mhz to 450mhz. Some other countries have different blocks, but in the US we have 30mhz of use. People getting devices that are from other countries and using them here in that frequency block are in for a big disappointment because those devices aren't actually legal to use. They complain to the FCC about interference issues and find out the hard way.

[WSAG543]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:17 AM, WRQI583 said:

It is simply because GMRS is a simple radio service for people who just need a simple means of communication. It is geared towards business, family, friends, where getting a business radio license is either not worth it or impossible to get. From observing people either online or locally getting into GMRS, many are not radio smart. They are utterly confused the second you say "repeater". Could you imagine if you added DMR or some other sort of whacky form of communicating? I know Extra class Hams who's brains explode if you even plant a DMR radio in their hands, never mind trying to get them to upload an already programmed codeplug. Adding other modes into GMRS would only confuse and degrade the service. GMRS is meant to be simple for simple radio communications. Analog with simplex and repeater capability is more than enough. 

I suggest if Hams want to experiment with frequency hopping, encryption and who knows what new secret service mode of communicating is out there, how about petitioning the FCC to take the Ham bands from 6 meters on up and either allow experimentation of any sort of mode of operation or petition the FCC to take the bands from 6 meters on up and split them off from Ham Radio and make a new service similar to Ham radio but that allows the commercial world to enter in with its radio technology therefore allowing more experimentation of radio and making it more friendly towards those like myself who's interests border more on the commercial end of radio rather than the traditional Ham contesting end of radio? I guarantee you, you would attract a lot more people to the group of radio operators. This way, people could leave GMRS alone and stop trying to turn it into something it is not meant to be. Ham Radio on the bands from 6 meters and above are actually very restrictive when it comes to what you can experiment with and what modes you can use. In general, either the rules restrict you from experimenting or the Ham community themselves restrict you (depending on your location). 

If you want to experiment - use Ham Radio
If you want secure communications - use a cell phone.

I see the argument that these are simple radios but allowing digital and FHSS doesn't need to impact the "normies" that just want something plug and play. I have a small fleet of DTRs (410s, 650s, and 700s) for more secure use. Cell phones don't always work everywhere, it's just strange that acquiring ISM radios is required when allowing digital on GMRS would use the spectrum more efficiently and allow for more privacy. I would probably consider Ham if the government would allow a segment of the spectrum for true experimentation (digital w/encryption, etc). As it is my options are basically DTR/DLR or commercial options with their expensive licensing and frequency restrictions.