An interesting proposal for GMRS+

[WRQI583]

12 hours ago, WSAG543 said:

I see the argument that these are simple radios but allowing digital and FHSS doesn't need to impact the "normies" that just want something plug and play. 

The current radios would get interfered with by the other radios. We are talking about adjusting all the bandwidths of the radios. No one is realizing that. Even some of the GMRS radios currently in use will interfere with digital. RF is RF no matter what you run. 

If you guys all want to experiment with encryption and all this other fancy means of transmitting, please, petition the FCC to use the VHF and UHF bands on Ham Radio to do this. There are areas where these bands dont get used. I have encountered so many Hams that have nothing good to say about these bands. I can find hundreds of Hams that refuse to use them. They sit here with DMR hotspots, APRS and repeaters doing nothing useful. I say, revamp the Ham bands from 50MHz on up and make it worth something to even people like you who are interested in this sort of thing. Even I would get back into Ham Radio if that was the case. I got out of it because I am tired of getting talked down to for liking these bands and then getting my GMRS license and the fact that Ham Radio is stagnant on these bands. I would sign my name to a petition if someone wanted to incorporate this stuff into the Hams Bands. Ham Radio should be the service that is forward thinking, instead it 

Leave GMRS simple for those who cant tell the difference between simplex and a repeater because they just simply want to use a radio to communicate without all the strings attached. 

[WSAG543]

That seems to be the majority opinion. I think at some point you have to rip off the band-aid and there have been proposals that address the interference issue within the GMRS frequency range. That said, maybe you are right about Ham being better for this. The question would be whether or not the FCC would be willing to allow this on Ham. I liked the idea of digital on GMRS because only one license is needed for a family talkgroup. With Ham, everyone in the group needs to be licensed to keep it legal.

[SteveShannon]

17 minutes ago, WSAG543 said:

That seems to be the majority opinion. I think at some point you have to rip off the band-aid and there have been proposals that address the interference issue within the GMRS frequency range. That said, maybe you are right about Ham being better for this. The question would be whether or not the FCC would be willing to allow this on Ham. I liked the idea of digital on GMRS because only one license is needed for a family talkgroup. With Ham, everyone in the group needs to be licensed to keep it legal.

Other than encryption I don’t understand what you can not do in ham radio.

[Lscott]

30 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Other than encryption I don’t understand what you can not do in ham radio.

You can conduct commercial activity on GMRS. On Ham it's strictly verboten except for very narrow exception like a talk in for a swap or announcing equipment for sale during a net. 

Oh, encryption is allowed on Ham under very limited conditions, such as a ground control station for a satellite.

[SteveShannon]

17 minutes ago, Lscott said:

You can conduct commercial activity on GMRS. On Ham it's strictly verboten except for very narrow exception like a talk in for a swap or announcing equipment for sale during a net. 

Oh, encryption is allowed on Ham under very limited conditions, such as a ground control station for a satellite.

I understand the rules. I was asking what WSAG543 wanted to do that was prohibited.

[WRQI583]

27 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Other than encryption I don’t understand what you can not do in ham radio.

You are very correct aside from Trunked radio and FHHS. It isn't so much what you cannot do in Ham Radio, it is a lot more finding others to do it with you. I have always felt this way, and I always will - Ham Radio has a lot to offer. It is a huge world. It is what I loved about the hobby from the start. However, it takes two to communicate and therefore it is pretty difficult if you dont find the people out there that are into what you are into, especially people who live close to you.

Everyone knows, although Ham Radio has a many different aspects to it when it comes to all the different sorts of modes and frequencies that you can operate, Ham Radio started off with certain frequencies and certain modes and a certain way of operating and it will always be that (at least until the "old guard" dies off). Even though more frequencies and modes come along, they will never be viewed as "true Ham Radio" and therefore will never be fully accepted by the majority. Because of this, many modes of operation and frequencies dont get used the way they could or should and in some cases, when people try to make full use of them, they are met with opposition or just "that look" that screams, "You are not a true Ham". I've gotten it and many others have including those who dont even have a license yet, and it's what drives people away. No one wants to get into something if they are going to meet opposition doing it.

I understand Ham Radio started off with wires and tubes transmitting on a crackly signal in the HF bands, but radio has come a long way since then and if people dont just get with the times, what they have is going to dry up and die with them.

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, WRQI583 said:

You are very correct aside from Trunked radio and FHHS. It isn't so much what you cannot do in Ham Radio, it is a lot more finding others to do it with you. I have always felt this way, and I always will - Ham Radio has a lot to offer. It is a huge world. It is what I loved about the hobby from the start. However, it takes two to communicate and therefore it is pretty difficult if you dont find the people out there that are into what you are into, especially people who live close to you.

Everyone knows, although Ham Radio has a many different aspects to it when it comes to all the different sorts of modes and frequencies that you can operate, Ham Radio started off with certain frequencies and certain modes and a certain way of operating and it will always be that (at least until the "old guard" dies off). Even though more frequencies and modes come along, they will never be viewed as "true Ham Radio" and therefore will never be fully accepted by the majority. Because of this, many modes of operation and frequencies dont get used the way they could or should and in some cases, when people try to make full use of them, they are met with opposition or just "that look" that screams, "You are not a true Ham". I've gotten it and many others have including those who dont even have a license yet, and it's what drives people away. No one wants to get into something if they are going to meet opposition doing it.

I understand Ham Radio started off with wires and tubes transmitting on a crackly signal in the HF bands, but radio has come a long way since then and if people dont just get with the times, what they have is going to dry up and die with them.

Perhaps it’s your geographic area.

Here I see just as much activity or more on VHF and UHF as I do on HF. We are sparsely populated yet we have 2m, and 70 cm repeaters in most large towns and even some 6m, a large statewide DMR network on 70 cm, and scheduled nets on 2m and DMR. Many of the “old guard” have DMR radios. I’m 68 and I have both DMR and C4FM. I also do HF. 
So I’m really not sure what disappointed you about ham radio?  I just don’t see it in my corner of the world. 
 

[WRYZ926]

How active VHF and UHF repeaters are definitely depends on your location. Here in central Missouri the 2m and 70cm bands are very active. Yet there is no activity on 1.25m (220MHz) and 6m. DMR is a bit more active than 1.25m and 6m. 

[WRQI583]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

Perhaps it’s your geographic area.

Here I see just as much activity or more on VHF and UHF as I do on HF. We are sparsely populated yet we have 2m, and 70 cm repeaters in most large towns and even some 6m, a large statewide DMR network on 70 cm, and scheduled nets on 2m and DMR. Many of the “old guard” have DMR radios. I’m 68 and I have both DMR and C4FM. I also do HF. 
So I’m really not sure what disappointed you about ham radio?  I just don’t see it in my corner of the world. 
 

There are areas where VHF and UHF are very active but it's in pockets. From what I gather, it seems as though the areas where it is pretty dead are larger than the areas where it is active. 2 meters is pretty much the more active band no matter where you go, however, the rest of it is usually pretty dead. 

Where I live, we have a statewide DMR system and I hardly see any activity on it. I know of another state where they have a statewide DMR system and Hams actually frown upon others using it unless it is for emergencies.  

My issue with Ham is that I dont do HF. For the bands that I do like to run, there just isn't enough activity. Ham Radio isn't what it used to be. So, I ended up going with GMRS but decided to keep Ham running also until it just got plain old stupid. One repeater had some redneck flying off the handle swearing up a storm talking like some drunk guy on CB and then came the bad attitudes from Hams who think having a GMRS and Ham license is not being loyal to Ham. They cant understand why you would bother with GMRS because it doesn't travel far and no one is on it. In the middle of all of this I needed more antennas for my SDR project and police scanner. Sadly, I dont have room for anymore antennas. So, I disconnected my Ham Radios and packed them away and plugged my SDR's and new digital scanner into the existing antennas and things have been good ever since. I have GMRS if I need to communicate with Hams and also family and friends, and I get to monitor what I want making better use of my electricity and space.

[WRYZ926]

2 minutes ago, WRQI583 said:

My issue with Ham is that I dont do HF. For the bands that I do like to run, there just isn't enough activity. Ham Radio isn't what it used to be. So, I ended up going with GMRS but decided to keep Ham running also until it just got plain old stupid. One repeater had some redneck flying off the handle swearing up a storm talking like some drunk guy on CB and then came the bad attitudes from Hams who think having a GMRS and Ham license is not being loyal to Ham. They cant understand why you would bother with GMRS because it doesn't travel far and no one is on it

We got the same attitudes when we first brought up a GMRS repeater. But we have proven the naysayers wrong. And more club members are now getting their GMRS licenses.

[WRXB215]

I'm quite new to ham but so far my experience has been very good. The South Coast Reflector is very active. I don't have much experience with the East Coast Reflector (South links to East sometimes for nets) but the one net I took part in seemed like there were plenty of active users over there.

I sympathize with everyone who has a bad experience with sad hams, sad GMRS, or sad anything but don't let those jerks take anything from you. I like GMRS and HAM and no jerk is going to turn me away from either.

[WSAG543]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:52 AM, Sshannon said:

I understand the rules. I was asking what WSAG543 wanted to do that was prohibited.

I want encryption and the ability to use one license to cover my family. Ham doesn't do that for me. The best I have right now is a fleet of Motorola DTR radios (410, 650, 700). I don't need 100% secure comms but I also don't want anyone in the area with a GMRS HT or a scanner to easily hear conversations I have with my wife and kids, especially in large public spaces. FHSS on 900 MHz does the trick for the most part and that's what I use now. I could just do with a bit more range.

I also don't understand the need/requirement to use callsigns for private conversations (use on repeaters makes sense). I am attracted to some aspects of GMRS and Ham, but I guess my desired use case is just incompatible with what the FCC is willing to authorize for regular citizens who don't want to pay for a limited and expensive commercial license.

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, WSAG543 said:

I also don't understand the need/requirement to use callsigns for private conversations

Simple. GMRS was not intended to be private. You need to use a call sign basically the same logic why you’re required to have a license plate on your car, registration number on boats, airplanes etc. Don’t want to use call signs there is always FRS.

[WRQC527]

2 hours ago, WSAG543 said:

the need/requirement to use callsigns for private conversations

I would venture to guess that the requirement to use call signs on GMRS could be in part because of the power allowed. A user running the full 50 watts on GMRS, even without a repeater, has the potential to transmit a signal much farther, and possibly interfere with communications very far away, which is unlikely with unlicensed low-power services like CB, MURS and FRS. Licensing, and using your call sign, gives users the ability to identify those users causing interference, and it gives the FCC a way to take action against offenders who the FCC assumes know the rules... assuming the offenders are actually using their call signs. That's what I think anyway.

[SteveShannon]

If you’re using a radio that requires a license to use, you’re required to identify the license you’re using. It’s a very simple concept. 
If you’re authorizing someone to use your license, they are required to identify your license. Equally simple concept. 
If you are the license holder, you are responsible to ensure that they do. Still simple. 
Inconvenience or the opinion that a rule is stupid has never been recognized as a justification for violating regulations. 
However, the FCC almost certainly won’t enforce it. 

[gortex2]

Sounds like FRS, CB or MURS is better suited for you and not a licensed service. 

 

[tweiss3]

12 hours ago, WSAG543 said:

I also don't understand the need/requirement to use callsigns for private conversations (use on repeaters makes sense). I am attracted to some aspects of GMRS and Ham, but I guess my desired use case is just incompatible with what the FCC is willing to authorize for regular citizens who don't want to pay for a limited and expensive commercial license.

It's simply a requirement of getting the license. Technically, its also required on Business &  Public Safety licenses as well.

[SteveShannon]

There is one radio service that encrypts conversations, doesn’t require users to ID, and doesn’t require users to own a license.

It even has a worldwide network of repeaters.

What’s more, it fits in a person’s pocket. In fact most adults and a lot of kids already have these wondrous radios. 

 

[Lscott]

21 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

There is one radio service that encrypts conversations, doesn’t require users to ID, and doesn’t require users to own a license.

It even has a worldwide network of repeaters.

What’s more, it fits in a person’s pocket. In fact most adults and a lot of kids already have these wondrous radios. 

 

Also comes with a monthly bill.

[SteveShannon]

43 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Also comes with a monthly bill.

Which we’re already probably paying.

And it doesn’t do simplex, but hey, none of us get everything we want.

[WRXB215]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

And it doesn’t do simplex

Yep. This is a pet peeve of mine. There is a device that costs about $150 you can use to add it.

[WSAG543]

13 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Sounds like FRS, CB or MURS is better suited for you and not a licensed service. 

 

You missed the part where I mentioned DTR radios. They work amazingly well for my use case and I just wished I could get something with similar features with a bit more range. Eh, it's a tough crowd so I guess we'll leave it at that. GMRS and Ham are apparently not for me and won't be in the future given the responses of most users here. I will keep the equipment I have around in case of grid down shituation but I don't expect they will get much use otherwise. 

[OffRoaderX]

25 minutes ago, WSAG543 said:

it's a tough crowd so I guess we'll leave it at that

No no no.. You've got it all wrong! Its just that "some people" know everything and love to show everyone how smart they think they are.

[GreggInFL]

On 2/1/2024 at 11:34 AM, Lscott said:

You can conduct commercial activity on GMRS...

I assume you are referring to offering products for sale.  How about internal business operations; e.g. Walmart running its stores with GMRS (assuming the company would want to)?

[tweiss3]

Just now, GreggInFL said:

I assume you are referring to offering products for sale.  How about internal business operations; e.g. Walmart running its stores with GMRS (assuming the company would want to)?

No, he wasn't talking about using GMRS to advertise items for sale, but more for business operations ie, Walmart store operations, road flagging crews, survey/construction crews on a work site, provided each user is licensed. Its permitted, but there is a quick return loss between each user and just licensing a business frequency.

One way it would make financial/common sense is a family farm, all workers are in the "family" list if Part 95, then it would be easy (and cheap), and not require coordination, to put up a GMRS repeater and run GMRS for all farm operations.