FCC Part 95

[WRXB215]

8 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

severe old timers

Hey! I resemble that remark! 

[WRYZ926]

3 minutes ago, WRXB215 said:

Hey! I resemble that remark! 

Yeah auto correct got me again. I meant to type several. 

[Adamdaj]

On 1/24/2024 at 5:55 PM, WSAE510 said:

I'm going to express my thoughts about the part 95 rulings. 

To start off, when I applied for my GMRS license, I requested a copy of the rules so I could have em on hand in my laptop. How ever, the handheld transceiver regard to limited power on it said 5 watts. Others today are arguing that truth. 

Secondly, people are saying that they have the rights to use amplifiers with the GMRS mobile, base and handheld. I'm told that nobody can use a amplifier. The copy of the part 95 rules was updated December 22, 2023. 

Either way I'm complying with the rules and IMHO I believe that the FCC should crack down on this issue.

WSAE510 73s

Where does it say in the FCC's Part 95 (A) (B) or (E) grants people the right to use amplifiers? Even Part 95 (D) CB radio amplifiers are prohibited.

However, I guess if you bought one of those 10-watt Repeaters. You could amplifier if you don't exceed the 50-watt limit.

[Sshannon]

Here are the general rules for RF amplifiers:

§ 2.815 External radio frequency power amplifiers.

(a) As used in this part, an external radio frequency power amplifier is any device which, 

(1) when used in conjunction with a radio transmitter as a signal source is capable of amplification of that signal, and 

(2) is not an integral part of a radio transmitter as manufactured. 

(b) No person shall manufacture, sell or lease, offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease) or import, ship or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any external radio frequency power amplifier capable of operation on any frequency or frequencies below 144 MHz unless the amplifier has received a grant of certification in accordance with subpart J of this part and other relevant parts of this chapter. These amplifiers shall comply with the following: 

(1) The external radio frequency power amplifier shall not be capable of amplification in the frequency band 26–28 MHz. 

(2) The amplifier shall not be capable of easy modification to permit its use as an amplifier in the frequency band 26–28 MHz. 

(3) No more than 10 external radio frequency power amplifiers may be constructed for evaluation purposes in preparation for the submission of an application for a grant of certification. 

(4) If the external radio frequency power amplifier is intended for operation in the Amateur Radio Service under part 97 of this chapter, the requirements of §§ 97.315 and 97.317 of this chapter shall be met.

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, Adamdaj said:

Where does it say in the FCC's Part 95 (A) (B) or (E) grants people the right to use amplifiers? Even Part 95 (D) CB radio amplifiers are prohibited.

There is no "granted right to use amplifiers" stated in the rules. Amplifiers appear to only be mentioned (and prohibited) under FCC Part 95 Subpart A under the CBRS section. GMRS is limited to certain power levels, depending on the channels, the most being 50 watts (On channels 15 through 22, and on the repeater channels . So if you are using an amplifier, you would be wise not to use it on channels 1 through 14. But there is no prohibition mentioned. Just don't go over 50 watts where you're allowed by the rules. 

[ka9ntz]

Looking at this section, line 1 & 2 are confusing. Line one states mobile, repeater, and base station 50 watts. Line 2 states a fixed station at max of 15 watts. What is the difference between a repeater, base, and fixed station. My brain is telling me that a repeater and base station are fixed.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.1767

[Sshannon]

21 minutes ago, ka9ntz said:

Looking at this section, line 1 & 2 are confusing. Line one states mobile, repeater, and base station 50 watts. Line 2 states a fixed station at max of 15 watts. What is the difference between a repeater, base, and fixed station. My brain is telling me that a repeater and base station are fixed.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.1767

More than one person has argued over this.  There’s an entire thread about it.

You have to go back up to the Personal Radio Services and read the definition of Fixed Station. The differences boil down to this

that Fixed Stations are fixed in location, AND only communicate with other Fixed Stations, AND are allowed to transmit on the 467 MHz frequencies (as well as the 462 frequencies) even though they are not talking to a repeater.

Another curious thing about the rules is that where it lists the types of stations that may transmit on the 467 MHz Main frequencies through repeaters, Base Stations are not in the list.

[WRUU653]

11 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Another curious thing about the rules is that where it lists the types of stations that may transmit on the 467 MHz Main frequencies through repeaters, Base Stations are not in the list

This has always had me perplexed. I see no reason for it being excluded in the list. It has the same power output limit as a mobile.

[Sshannon]

5 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

This has always had me perplexed. I see no reason for it being excluded in the list. It has the same power output limit as a mobile.

I am not sure either. The only difference I can think of is that a true Base Station probably would have a base station antenna, which could be hundreds of feet in the air and reach a hundred miles. Two base stations talking to each other through a repeater could span a pretty good distance.

[Lscott]

48 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

This has always had me perplexed. I see no reason for it being excluded in the list. It has the same power output limit as a mobile.

A mobile doesn't have the antenna height advantage a base does. I'm thinking the FCC's goal is to limit the operational area by removing the antenna height advantage a base station has since they likely assume the communication would be between the base station and hand-held or other mobile stations belonging to the same licensee. They didn't want GMRS to turn into a "Ham Lite" type of service, which it seems to be doing. 

[WRQC527]

3 hours ago, Sshannon said:

I am not sure either. The only difference I can think of is that a true Base Station probably would have a base station antenna, which could be hundreds of feet in the air and reach a hundred miles. Two base stations talking to each other through a repeater could span a pretty good distance.

I may be wrong, but mayhaps it goes back to how the FCC defines a base station, which is that it's a station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations. No mention of repeaters. 

[Sshannon]

29 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

I may be wrong, but mayhaps it goes back to how the FCC defines a base station, which is that it's a station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations. No mention of repeaters. 

Yes, that sounds right. 

[wrci350]

Control station.  A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

IMHO, the two keys to understanding Part 95 are to just read the regulation as it's written (and not "interpret" it) and to accept the definition of terms as the FCC lays them out, even if they don't agree with common usage.

If you have a mobile radio (because AFAIK no one makes a GMRS 'base' radio) connected to a power supply and antenna on your roof, and you are talking through a repeater, the FCC calls that a control station.  That's what Part 95 A (which applies to all other subparts of 95, including 95 E) says.

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations.

If you have a mobile radio connected to a power supply and antenna on your roof, and you are talking directly to other mobiles or base stations (i.e. simplex) the FCC calls that a base station, even if it's the same setup you use to talk through repeaters.  Again, that's what Part 95 A says.

Mobile station. A station, intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified locations, that communicates directly with base stations and other mobile stations, and with control stations and other mobile stations through repeater stations.

A mobile, on the other hand (and HTs are considered a sub-class of mobiles) can do both ... direct and through repeaters.

Again, the key is not to try and make sense of the distinction between base and control stations.  Just accept the definitions and go with them.

I will also bet that someone is going to come back and argue with me about what a control station is because they want to interpret "may also be used" as MUST BE USED.  Uh, that's not what it says.  It says, "may".  "May" does not mean "MUST".

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, wrci350 said:

Control station.  A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

IMHO, the two keys to understanding Part 95 are to just read the regulation as it's written (and not "interpret" it) and to accept the definition of terms as the FCC lays them out, even if they don't agree with common usage.

If you have a mobile radio (because AFAIK no one makes a GMRS 'base' radio) connected to a power supply and antenna on your roof, and you are talking through a repeater, the FCC calls that a control station.  That's what Part 95 A (which applies to all other subparts of 95, including 95 E) says.

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations.

If you have a mobile radio connected to a power supply and antenna on your roof, and you are talking directly to other mobiles or base stations (i.e. simplex) the FCC calls that a base station, even if it's the same setup you use to talk through repeaters.  Again, that's what Part 95 A says.

Mobile station. A station, intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified locations, that communicates directly with base stations and other mobile stations, and with control stations and other mobile stations through repeater stations.

A mobile, on the other hand (and HTs are considered a sub-class of mobiles) can do both ... direct and through repeaters.

Again, the key is not to try and make sense of the distinction between base and control stations.  Just accept the definitions and go with them.

I will also bet that someone is going to come back and argue with me about what a control station is because they want to interpret "may also be used" as MUST BE USED.  Uh, that's not what it says.  It says, "may".  "May" does not mean "MUST".

So, that would seem to imply that the type of station is fluid and defined by usage. A person could simply change channels and the station would transition from a base station to a control station. Is that your understanding?

[Radioguy7268]

A Fixed Base (FB) is transmitting on the lower (base) 462.xxx frequencies.

A Fixed Base FB2 is a repeater. It listens on the higher side frequency, but re-transmits on the lower (base) side of the frequency pair.

Quote

So, that would seem to imply that the type of station is fluid and defined by usage. A person could simply change channels and the station would transition from a base station to a control station.

Yes - changing the frequency can change the functional definition.

[Sshannon]

2 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

A Fixed Base (FB) is transmitting on the lower (base) 462.xxx frequencies.

A Fixed Base FB2 is a repeater. It listens on the higher side frequency, but re-transmits on the lower (base) side of the frequency pair.

Yes - changing the frequency can change the functional definition.

Where are those terms (Fixed Base and Fixed Base 2) defined within part 95?

[WRQC527]

 It often makes me wonder why base stations are even a thing in GMRS, because it says right there in the acronym, General Mobile Radio Service. No one even makes GMRS base stations. You can buy CB base stations, FRS base stations, and amateur radio base stations, but no GMRS base stations. You need to roll your own with an HT or a mobile connected to a power supply. It's also odd that if I'm talking simplex from my house to a mobile or HT, I'm a base station, but if I'm talking to those same people through a repeater, I'm a control station. The FCC is weird.

[wrci350]

7 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

You can buy CB base stations, FRS base stations, and amateur radio base stations, but no GMRS base stations. You need to roll your own with an HT or a mobile connected to a power supply.

It's also odd that if I'm talking simplex from my house to a mobile or HT, I'm a base station, but if I'm talking to those same people through a repeater, I'm a control station. The FCC is weird.

"Station" is not the same as "radio".  If you have an HT connected to an outside antenna at your house, that's either a base station or control station, depending on how you are using it.  The FCC cares about how your "station" is used, not what equipment makes up the station.

Most hams who use 2m or 70cm (either simplex or through repeaters) do so using a mobile radio connected to a power supply and outside antenna.  There are only a couple currently-available "base" ham radios that include those bands.

Can't disagree with the last paragraph.  As I said in my previous post, just accept the definitions the FCC provides and move on ... don't try to make sense of them!

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, wrci350 said:

Station" is not the same as "radio".  If you have an HT connected to an outside antenna at your house, that's either a base station or control station, depending on how you are using it.  The FCC cares about how your "station" is used, not what equipment makes up the station.

That’s exactly how I understand it as well.  The entire configuration and the use thereof establishes the station type.

With that in mind, I could have a radio in my transceiver in my house (Fixed location) that I use to communicate directly with other base stations or mobile/portable radios.  That’s a Base Station.

Then, I could change channels and use it to communicate through a repeater to mobile/portable radios and it becomes a Control Station.

However, if I only use it to communicate to Fixed Stations then my station is a Fixed Station and I must restrict my output power to 15 watts.  The upside is that my Fixed Station and the other Fixed Stations are able to use the 467 MHz Main channels that are otherwise limited to transmissions to a repeater or brief test transmissions.

[nokones]

All stations (radio devices/equipment units) connected to an antenna that is affixed to a stationary structure (tower or building) are fixed bases because they are not and can not operate in transport (be moved at any given time) thus is a fixed location and is a base operated equipment. A radio device/equipment) connected to an antenna affixed to a vehicle/vessel/aircraft that can be in transport are mobile units.

By rule definition of Part 95, Subpart E, any fixed base that communicates with another fixed base would be defined as and be operating as a fixed station thus must operate pursuant to Parts 95.1763 (a) & (c) and 95.1767 (a)(2).

The type of radio equipment (table top radio equipment as opposed to a radio that is normally hanging under a dash/installed in a vehicle) does not have any bearing on the station class of operation. It is based/defined on how/where the radio device being operated and the antenna  mounting.

[wrci350]

12 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

However, if I only use it to communicate to Fixed Stations then my station is a Fixed Station and I must restrict my output power to 15 watts.  The upside is that my Fixed Station and the other Fixed Stations are able to use the 467 MHz Main channels that are otherwise limited to transmissions to a repeater or brief test transmissions.

Every time someone asks, "But what's a Fixed Station" my response is, "Not you."

There are a number of digital data (not voice) modes allowed on GMRS.

It is unfortunate the FCC doesn't provide a better definition of "fixed station", and I know one of my two rules was "don't interpret" but I'm pretty sure "fixed station" refers to telemetry between remote locations and a central site.

In any event, normal GMRS usage doesn't fit the definition of "fixed station".

[wrci350]

9 minutes ago, nokones said:

All stations (radio devices/equipment units) connected to an antenna that is affixed to a stationary structure (tower or building) are fixed bases because they are not and can not operate in transport (be moved at any given time) thus is a fixed location and is a base operated equipment. A radio device/equipment) connected to an antenna affixed to a vehicle/vessel/aircraft that can be in transport are mobile units.

By rule definition of Part 95, Subpart E, any fixed base that communicates with another fixed base would be defined as and be operating as a fixed station thus must operate pursuant to Parts 95.1763 (a) & (c) and 95.1767 (a)(2).

The type of radio equipment (table top radio equipment as opposed to a radio that is normally hanging under a dash/installed in a vehicle) does not have any bearing on the station class of operation. It is based/defined on how/where the radio device being operated and the antenna  mounting.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.  If you are arguing that a GMRS station using a mobile radio, power supply, and outside antenna is a "fixed station" (as defined in Part 95 A) and must adhere to the restrictions for fixed stations, you are incorrect.

The term "fixed base" appears nowhere in Part 95 that I can see.

I do agree that the type of radio ("base", "mobile", or "HT") does not determine the classification.

[Sshannon]

Just now, wrci350 said:

Every time someone asks, "But what's a Fixed Station" my response is, "Not you."

There are a number of digital data (not voice) modes allowed on GMRS.

It is unfortunate the FCC doesn't provide a better definition of "fixed station", and I know one of my two rules was "don't interpret" but I'm pretty sure "fixed station" refers to telemetry between remote locations and a central site.

In any event, normal GMRS usage doesn't fit the definition of "fixed station".

Agreed.  And telemetry is one use case that I understand.  Another that I have mentioned before could be for direct voice communications between two family locations, such as between my house and my cabin that’s 16 miles away.  Being able to use 467 MHz (or even duplex) and Yagi antennas reduces the probability that I will interfere with others or they with me and 15 watts is certainly enough power.

[nokones]

6 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

 

It is unfortunate the FCC doesn't provide a better definition of "fixed station", and I know one of my two rules was "don't interpret" but I'm pretty sure "fixed station" refers to telemetry between remote locations and a central site.

In any event, normal GMRS usage doesn't fit the definition of "fixed station".

Part 95.303 provides the a clear definition on the various classes of stations for all subparts of Part 95 radio services.

[wrci350]

1 minute ago, nokones said:

Part 95.303 provides the a clear definition on the various classes of stations for all subparts of Part 95 radio services.

Again, and your point is?

I would also strongly disagree with you.  A circular definition with no additional information is not clear.