What would happen if....

[Guest]

So with all the threads being spewed around the various contents of this forum around the 'rules' of the FCC in regard to radio type acceptance.... what would happen and how would a person deal with a scenario where the FCC revoked a radio's type 95E certification?

Mostly being hypothetical here, but given the original 'oops we lied' scenario that happened with TIDRADIO's first iteration of the TDH8-GMRS... it's made me wonder...

[SteveShannon]

From the regulations:

(b) Revoked or withdrawn certification. In the event that the FCC revokes or withdraws a grant of equipment certification for a type of Personal Radio Service transmitter, existing transmitters already in service may continue to be operated unless and until the FCC determines otherwise and gives Public Notice of that decision.

[WRXP381]

Nothing would happen.

First of all was it certified when it was sold?  If yes then no problem.  Your covered   

second… what happens to the millions of people using non type certified radios from the beginning?   How many licensed GMRS users have 1,2,5,10 or more radios that they use each and every day and are not and never have been certified?   Nothing.  .this could be a cheap uv-5r or a Motorola xts5000.   Or any thing in between.  I’d venture to say that there are more non type certified radios on gmrs then certified   
 

When this becomes a problem is when a user is being a complete jerk and interrupting other users.  Even then it takes weeks months years or maybe never before the fcc does anything about it.  And if they ever do, a non type certified radio may be an add on charge. 
 

[WSAA635]

Ditto, as much "wind" as some here would like to blow about this or that FCC Rule you're only going get busted if you're jamming a repeater, broadcasting on Emergency Service Frequencies or talking about something illegal like a drug deal or other criminal activity.  

Just talking to friends and family about normal,everyday stuff won't even be noticed by the FCC.

[WRQI583]

I will never understand why there are so many forums where the number one thing above all things talked about when it comes to operating a radio is type accepted radios. It isn't using a radio without a license, or talking on or jamming public safety frequencies, or swearing over the radio, it is operating a type accepted radio.

This is the least of your issues. If you took type accepted radios and lined them up next to non type accepted radios and talked over them, you would never know the difference. It just seems funny how some people will even go to the length of never getting licensed and never touching a radio because they are that scared of possibly using a radio that is not type accepted and getting caught by the FCC and thrown in jail for 20 years and then getting out and having to pay a $10,000 fine. Many Hams and GMRS radio operators all use NON type accepted radios, either because they modified the radio themselves or they purchased the radio from the manufacturer NON type accepted. How many cases are being brought into court over non type accepted radios just because the FCC happened to be strolling past someone's house and caught them in the act of operating a non type accepted radio? You have Hams that swear right over Ham radio frequencies on multiple different bands and NEVER get in trouble. I have heard conversations come over GMRS that was so offensive I wouldn't let a child listen to it even after they just got done with a day of school full of kids swearing at each other, and I can assure you that no one got in trouble. Bad language over the radio will get you in trouble with the FCC much quicker than a non type accepted radio.

I am by no means encouraging breaking the rules at all, however, to focus on non type accepted radios while others are clearly violating the rules in much worse ways is futile. Like it has been said in here already, it is an add on charge and the chance of getting caught is slim to none. You literally have to be maliciously interfering with other agencies to get caught and even then, it takes a long time if at all for the FCC to respond. So when it comes to a radio going from type accepted to non type accepted, the FCC would never come after anyone. Think about Baofeng. None of those radios are type accepted and you have everyone from children to security agencies operating them radios. The United States is probably flooded with more Baofeng radios than plastic shopping bags. Think about how many people would end up in prison for 20 years and have to pay a $10,000 fine. It just doesn't make sense to go after non-type accepted radios.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, WRQI583 said:

I will never understand why there are so many forums where the number one thing above all things talked about when it comes to operating a radio is type accepted radios. It isn't using a radio without a license, or talking on or jamming public safety frequencies, or swearing over the radio, it is operating a type accepted radio.

Not in any disagreement to anything posted here, and I fully appreciate the pointers back to the very rules that deal with this scenario.

 In some sense, I was posting this hypothetical question as a way to provoke thought and prove points… 

But….

Loosely, type acceptance is mildly some sort of a way to infer that you’ve accounted for NOT interfering or using inappropriately. (in a frequency allowance perspective, not human behavior perspective). If type acceptance were more closely adhered to, interference, wrong frequencies, etc, would be a bit less possible, hence why it’s there.  
 

Of course, the presumption here is that the type acceptance is real and not just a rubber stamp

 

[WSAA635]

This reminds me of "Street Legal" with cars/trucks. There are plenty of folks driving "street legal" vehicles that break the law with them on a daily basis. Then there are those who modify their vehicles with different parts and accessories that makes their car or truck NOT street legal but they still follow the laws and rules of the road while driving. 

Who should we really be pointing our fingers at, someone with a "Type Accepted" radio who broadcasts out of band and acts like a jerk when they're on the air or someone who's not using a type accepted radio but stays within their licensed frequencies and plays nice when they're on the air. 

 

[WRYS709]

4 hours ago, WSAA635 said:

This reminds me of "Street Legal" with cars/trucks...

 

No one ever died from someone's use of a radio that is not in compliance with Part 95e.

[Lscott]

What would happen if....

This is starting to sound more like what turned CB 11M in to a garbage heap. I guess with the increasing popularity of GMRS it was bound to happen to this service sooner or later.

[Guest]

@Lscott  - FRS? GMRS? shared, licensed, not licensed, split power levels, type acceptance, not type acceptance, rules not laws, rules not enforced, free air waves can't be regulated, repeater drama... it was never bound to happen at all was it  

I just figured if youtube can have it's clickbait titles, then so can GMRS, right? 

At least by intent of thread, the first 2 responders gave a pretty logically sound, and direct to the point/rules/regulation response eh?

[Lscott]

I've seen this all before years ago on various CB Internet news groups. Same sort of logic. Always ends up in the same place.

[WSAA635]

My entire take on this "Type Approved" deal is that a person should buy the radio of THEIR choice(Type Approved or Not), program it with the channels they want to use and enjoy talking to family and friends while they're out shooting, off roading, hiking or whatever.  As long as you're not setting up drug deals or talking about bringing the next load of illegals across our wide open Southern Border then people just need to worry about themselves and not worry about what others do.

[WSDA973]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:40 PM, WSAA635 said:

talking about bringing the next load of illegals across our wide open Southern Border

I think people should be more worried about actual threats to our security like what I quoted, and not be the "radio police" and worry about if the radio is type accepted or not..... as long as the person using it has some general idea of how to use a radio, does not use offensive language, or use the radio for criminal purposes.  GMRS/HAM radio is a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be fun and enjoyable things to do which for the most part it is, do we really need to have the self declared people who think they are the radio police and ruin a pleasant hobby for the majority of us over something like type acceptance? 

[H8SPVMT]

23 hours ago, WSDA973 said:

I think people should be more worried about actual threats to our security like what I quoted, and not be the "radio police" and worry about if the radio is type accepted or not..... as long as the person using it has some general idea of how to use a radio, does not use offensive language, or use the radio for criminal purposes.  GMRS/HAM radio is a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be fun and enjoyable things to do which for the most part it is, do we really need to have the self declared people who think they are the radio police and ruin a pleasant hobby for the majority of us over something like type acceptance? 

I don't consider "Talking" a hobby any more than using any means of communication to do it.  I have never cared about what equipment others used except for those that destroy communication, over the air with added amperage, I guess like what is done in the CB world.

And I agree with others that Type 95 radios should only be used but if only "for the sake of preventing the same thing from happening to the GMRS comms."  Little by little & once allowed GMRS will go down like CB has.  Like many here have stated it seems to be those that don't want to follow the rules that ruin it for everyone else.

 

[AdmiralCochrane]

I keep my amperage to myself

[Lscott]

15 hours ago, H8SPVMT said:

I have never cared about what equipment others used

Maybe you don’t, but it does seem to be a popular topic on this forum.

[WRKC935]

Well, it has sort of happened.  At least in the commercial radio field.

On Jan 1 2013 the FCC implemented a requirement for all commercial radios to be 'narrow band' and support 12.5Khz channel width's. 

Many radios that were still in use that didn't support the new mandate had to be replaced by that date.  Failure to do it had the possibility of significant fines from the FCC.  Now I never heard of anyone getting fined, but I do remember replacing a ton of radios and repeaters that customers were actively using in the year or so prior to that date. 

So it wasn't really a type acceptance reversal, but it did make illegal to use a vast number of radios. 

 

[Lscott]

7 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

On Jan 1 2013 the FCC implemented a requirement for all commercial radios to be 'narrow band' and support 12.5Khz channel width's. 

Many radios that were still in use that didn't support the new mandate had to be replaced by that date.  Failure to do it had the possibility of significant fines from the FCC.  Now I never heard of anyone getting fined, but I do remember replacing a ton of radios and repeaters that customers were actively using in the year or so prior to that date.

Those radios were a source of cheap gear for Ham uses.

[WRQI583]

Something came to mind when it comes to a lot of people who get into radio. Their view of it and what purpose they have for it and why you find so many playing radio cop when it comes to subjects like this, "Type accepted radios".

You find it in GMRS but especially in Ham. These people who get their license and think they are now part of some elite group akin to a special branch of law enforcement. They think that now, because they hold a radio license, they have power and have this need to be overly super strict about what radio they operate, how they operate it, etc. They then act super official and try to police others. I even dealt with it on CB radio many years ago. Many CB operators thought they knew the rules when it came to radio and how if someone threatened them on CB, that person could be charged with a federal crime because it happened on a radio that is governed by the FCC. What was hilarious is when I came along and they found out I had a Ham license. They thought I had a back door I could go through to contact the FCC on their behalf. I was Radio Superman because I held an FCC license.

I hate to say it. Radio isn't anything special. Ham Radio, GMRS, it doesn't matter. It is just a radio license. It doesn't make you special. You are not a radio agent. You dont have special favors that you can do for people because you hold a federal license. You don't have the right to run around and police people. You can educate someone nicely, but not police. Ham Radio is a hobby. GMRS is a service that allows you to communicate with higher power and with repeaters, but is meant for the average person. At the end of the day, both are probably the lowest on the totem pole of licenses. If anything, it is a "You know better than to do that" license. If you get caught operating illegally, the FCC is going to slam the book at you harder because you are more familiar with the rules than the average person.

[WSAB258]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:08 PM, AdmiralCochrane said:

I keep my amperage to myself

Letting out a little secret: Even on large radios, my amps are 23 amps. or so, little mobiles around 1/2 that. 

[AdmiralCochrane]

One of the long running tenants of ham radio organization and protocols has been self-policing.  Example of lack of self-policing is CB radio.

[WRQI583]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:43 PM, AdmiralCochrane said:

One of the long running tenants of ham radio organization and protocols has been self-policing.  Example of lack of self-policing is CB radio.

Very true, but the policing I see going on in Ham is equivalent to self policing a town. Instead of self policing the areas where drugs and other crime are, they police the nice end of town and ticket people for crossing the street too slowly.

Ham Radio is just like that. They will jump all over someone operating a Baofeng correctly, but wont get the guy who records conversations going on and then maliciously playing them back at the guys he just recorded while they are attempting to have a conversation, or how about the guys who swear up a storm right over the air.

I understand the need for self policing, but it needs to be done correctly.

[H8SPVMT]

The same thing happens to new drivers on the road if the have studied at all.  They know the rules and are trying to follow them because they have been told the authorities will get you if you break the procedures.  However they are not familiar with the enforcement side but are truly trying to follow what they think (what they were taught) is correct.  It is only human they behave this way.