The Future of Linked Repeaters??? Must Watch!

[WRXR255]

1 minute ago, LeoG said:

Laws and technicalities can be a real challenge.

Put in place centuries ago for the specific reason to make lawyers rich with the right manipulation over the years.

(QUE: X-files theme jingle)

[WRUE951]

On 7/7/2024 at 9:20 AM, marcspaz said:

That is really weird to hear. The REACT team in the DCA doesn't own a single repeater. I don't think they charge to be a member either. That would be some shady stuff... for sure.

look on the data base, preferably the KML version so you can sort them out.   New York, New Jersey, Penn and the Carolinas have quite a few.  New York tops out.    Some of these guys have double digit repeaters  scattered within a small area and they are using every available repeater ch..     

[DONE]

Tell you what.   I am gonna drop a bit of knowledge that someone more enterprising than me can pickup and run with and run this crap to ground proving once and for all if any of this crap is legit. Or if once again, things have been made up for whatever reason creating all this hate and discontent.

 

The claims are that the email came from an employed FCC agent from his office email account.  Well, that email server, and the contents of EVERY EMAIL in it are property of the tax payers.  And are ALL subject to release to anyone making a FOIA request to the proper people. The government will have no choice but to provide the email, unredacted since it's certainly not going to have anything in it that would be considered of an interest to national security. 

So, if someone were to take two sentences from the email and make a FOIA request based on those sentences, or of course if you have more info, like the date and time it was sent... BY LAW the emails going into and coming out of all government email servers have to be saved and archived.  The FOIA request requires them to search for it and provide it.

So if someone is motivated enough to get to the bottom of this, that is the way to do it.  The ONLY reason it would be withheld is if there was an actual ongoing investigation concerning the repeater system and it's owner.  And if that's the case and you get told that, I would begin looking for terminations for not following procedure of an FCC agent.

Otherwise it's probably made up BS.

 

[LeoG]

I can neither confirm or deny that as there is an ongoing investigation on that subject.....

 

Now where have I heard that before

[Stone]

The claims are that the email came from an employed FCC agent from his office email account.

  All I heard and read about was that, 1 The guy worked at the FCC, and , 2. That he was a friend of the guy he tipped off. If I was to give a "Heads up" and was in a similar position, I would know all about the security measures therefore bypass them by using my personal laptop or maybe even one at the library.  If the warning is a "heads up" I would definitely keep it under the radar when I was doing the tipping of information. Just a little logical thinking here from real world experience.

 Have a Wonderful Day!

[amaff]

9 minutes ago, Stone said:

The claims are that the email came from an employed FCC agent from his office email account.

If I was to give a "Heads up" and was in a similar position, I would...

...have lunch and chat in person. Since they're allegedly friends.

Again, the whole thing stinks and no one else seems to have gotten an angry letter or anything of the sort yet. So....

[marcspaz]

23 minutes ago, Stone said:

The claims are that the email came from an employed FCC agent from his office email account.

  All I heard and read about was that, 1 The guy worked at the FCC, and , 2. That he was a friend of the guy he tipped off. If I was to give a "Heads up" and was in a similar position, I would know all about the security measures therefore bypass them by using my personal laptop or maybe even one at the library.  If the warning is a "heads up" I would definitely keep it under the radar when I was doing the tipping of information. Just a little logical thinking here from real world experience.

 Have a Wonderful Day!

 

I think you're giving human beings way too much credit.  Counter surveillance and evasion tactics aren't something the typical person understands.

[WRUQ758]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:46 PM, Hoppyjr said:

While I don’t dispute this happened, the issue of asking for call signs is a bridge too far. The owner should not need to produce any such info, but even if they do I doubt anything would come of it.

The government always tends to overreach and it’s up to the citizens to push back and keep them in check.

Thats akin to busting a food joint who's owners are committing crimes and charging everyone who ate there with the same crime. It's the owner who is doing the linking, not the users. IF it is a violation (big IF) the users have done nothing wrong since there are using a local repeater that happens to be linked (illegally?)!

[LeoG]

The members of the club used it knowing it was a linked repeater.  When I used it, it was my first time and I was clueless to it being linked although I figured it out after 2 days from hearing conversations way out of range of the repeater I connected to.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse....

Which is something I never bought.  Because law enforcement and the judicial have so many laws and antiquated laws on the books no one can keep track of them.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, LeoG said:

The members of the club used it knowing it was a linked repeater.  When I used it, it was my first time and I was clueless to it being linked although I figured it out after 2 days from hearing conversations way out of range of the repeater I connected to.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse....

Which is something I never bought.  Because law enforcement and the judicial have so many laws and antiquated laws on the books no one can keep track of them.

This doesn’t make sense even from a conspiratorial perspective.  Why would a friendly fcc employee throw a life preserver to the repeater owner and then cite the users?

Second, show me a regulation that says it’s forbidden to use a repeater that’s linked. 

[LeoG]

Now that's getting into the nitty gritty.

There is no regulation saying you can't use a linked repeater.

There is (seems to be) a regulation saying you can't link repeaters.

 

Again the FED will assume that one means the other.  But as you said, it isn't written anywhere.

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Again the FED will assume that one means the other.

Once again, that’s not how regulations work. If it’s not part of the regulations, it cannot be part of a citation, because citations require a reference to the rule that’s being violated.

[LeoG]

Says no linked repeaters.  Clearly means you aren't allowed to use a linked repeater.

 

That is how the citation will go.  But I agree with you.  Needs to be specifically stated.  Any ambiguity in the law should benefit the accused, not the govt.

[SteveShannon]

20 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Says no linked repeaters.  Clearly means you aren't allowed to use a linked repeater.

Doesn’t exactly say that either. Go back and read Marc Spaz’s excellent summary on one of the first pages.

But the most important requirement is this:

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

Notice also that mobile and portable radios are not addressed at all.

[MarkInTampa]

It looks like the future of GMRSLive is up in the air. Not due to FCC but for other reasons.

Change of Operations

7/24/24 – 9:30am

    We are turning 4 Years Old and with nearly 800 nodes connected I’m pretty much getting out of the radio hobby. It is supposed to be fun which it hasn’t been for a long time. I stopped using Amateur Radio because of the ‘Sad Hams’. To many people thinking they are better then everyone else. I found GMRS and it was fun. Not the crappy CB radio but good people to talk to and have a light hearted conversation. But.. To many people ruin the hobby. Some try to put digital some think they need to improve the network by adding everything from Zello to their toaster. They think they need to link it to everything. They think it is there job to add stuff so others can join, but those people could just join themselves. Why can’t they just get on the air and talk to people like it was designed to do? Why do they need to change things? 

    GMRS is not for ‘Emergency Ops’! There are plenty of better ways to support that. If you can use GMRS to talk to friends and loved ones in a emergency that is great but you shouldn’t plan your life around it. 

    I tried to protect the system and make it so everyone could enjoy it and would be safe for any age group. So you would know who was on. Those days are gone. I took so much grief from people over the few little rules we had. When the network started there were really no rules. Just have fun and enjoy. Then came the people that wanted to change things. They wanted what they wanted and screw everyone else. We allowed Zello in the beginning and even hosted a Zello link. It was a great tool along with IAX for people out of range of their normal connection to still be apart of the network. But then the SAD GMRS groups came along and started creating huge network groups on Zello that were not even members of the network. Has anyone else noticed Zello is mainly a bunch of people wanting to talk just like CB but don’t want to get a radio. It got so bad with the interference and not known whom was doing what we had to stop it. Why couldn’t they just use it as a tool for themselves and other users. Oh what a bunch of crying from a few. One person even told me they were ‘Required’ to have a Zello link for EOC operations. Huh??? But the users that had Zello and was using it in a positive manor didn’t see how others were using it. How do you stop one and let another? That is just on type of thing I had to put up with while Volunteering my time.

The network became like Farmville on Facebook. First thing I did every morning was check to see if all was ok. I’d check multiple times daily, then before bed. For years it has it has consumed me. Pretty much dropping what I was doing to help someone with a problem.

That is why I am stepping away from radio. I may use it every now and then but I’m going to find a different hobby and spend more time with the family. Maybe something to do with programing and doing computer stuff. I have enjoyed learning the C language. To accomplish this and keep the network running I have to change a few things…

• No more Banned list of users. If they have a GMRS License they can have node numbers. Anyone currently on the band list will be cleared and they can join. Changed my mind. Screw the people that didn’t want to play nice to start with.
• No more general support. The support email and contact will be for account issues and registration issues ONLY (like name changes and ports…). All other will not be addressed or returned. When we first started we had to help a lot of users that were new because there was nowhere else for them to go. Now there are plenty of talented people on our Facebook Group that can help.
• The network is self policing. You police your own nodes and or HUBs. If someone connects to you and does something you don’t like tell them or bounce them. You always have the option to Blacklist them.
• You connect and do as you wish with your own node. If you connect your toaster to it and it screws things up well it is your fault. If you connect something that isn’t working correct and you want to connect to someone else have at it, but be ready for that person to bounce you and block you.

Yes you read right, Put Zello, DvSwitch or anything else you want online.

I am not going to spend my time hunting anything down anymore.

    For those many people that have made this network what it is today I say Thank You . This is going to make more work for you but I’m sure you can keep things under control on your stuff. I am truly sorry a few have ruined it for the others. Life is just to short for me to be miserable anymore. But it was never an option to just shut it down completely.

    In the last four years the network has grown. For the first few years we ate the total cost. People asked to help with the cost and we always turned them down. Then with retirement in the future and the network getting bigger we allowed donation. We never requested them, and this is NOT a request now. The network is fine. If things ever come to it not supporting itself then we will simply turn it off.

    This is not and never has been a money making venture. Look around we have no paid advertising. We don’t ask for a thing. We don’t sell anything. No links to anything to make money. Look at other pages, many with affiliate links. Stores to sell stuff. Try to sell parts. Anything to make money. We just wanted the best network for others to enjoy.

Don’t even think I’m giving up. I haven’t been beat. I’m just bored and want something else to do with my time. – Tony

[WRUU653]

15 minutes ago, MarkInTampa said:

Don’t even think I’m giving up. I haven’t been beat. I’m just bored and want something else to do with my time. – Tony

Thanks for sharing. That sounds like it was a completely thankless task.

[UncleYoda]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

Notice also that mobile and portable radios are not addressed at all.

I think that's because mobile (in a vehicle) or portable (walking around) can't be connected to a landline.  As in other places in the regs, the modern wireless technology isn't addressed.

[DONE]

And I see that as being completely reasonable.  And I honestly expect it to happen here at some point with the mygmrs.com network, and in truth it seems that it already has to a degree.

Now my understanding is that mygmrs.com is repeaters only.  And possibly a leaning to high profile repeaters being strongly preferred.  And I would hope that there is some level of over site that keeps three guys on the same cul te sac from all putting up linked repeaters. 

Allowing every swinging dick in the sound of your voice to connect whatever to the system ruins the system.  Simplex nodes, and I believe they had allowed not only Zello but soft phone connections to the system and that REALLY turns into a mess.  I know that there are a couple groups that put Zello on their wide area networks as a tool for repeater owners to use on an as needed basis.  But those should never be for everyone to abandon their radio and just use Zello.  I also believe they were allowing digital ham radio 'hot spots' on the network which again has little to no coverage footprint outside someones house. 

He was doing all that by himself.  Which is a huge undertaking.  And obviously was overwhelming for him as time went on.  Someone also mentioned it was pretty thankless, and yes, I tend to agree that you don't get much outside help with this sort of stuff.  But if it's broke, everyone is quick to bitch about their FREE access to the service isn't working and they what it fixed immediately. 

 

Couple things I think we need for this system.  Of course this is strictly my opinion but I am gonna throw it out there.

First is documents on how to add a blacklist to a node.  Now that everything is immediately available for download and getting a node number is simple as clicking a link, I think we are going to need that ability as the system grows.  Knowing that the underlying system is All Star Link, there should be a document somewhere explaining how to do it but I haven't looked.  People should have the ability to block other nodes from connecting to them if they desire to do so.  It does exist right now, but there isn't specific instructions for that available. 

Guess, that was only one thing.... I guess the other would be adopt a fixed set of rules on what can be connected.  I don't know that there is documentation saying high profile repeaters only.  I don't know that there is a requirement that you can't link to a system that already has coverage in your area. I do know that one puts people into a spin, and rightly so.  There is ZERO sense in having coverage overlap of any great degree on the same system.  It's going to exist to some degree, but we shouldn't have the SAD HAM attitude of I want my call sign on a repeater too, and I want it linked to the same system that's 2 miles down the road simply because I can do it.  Right now, there isn't anything in writing to indicate that.  But I believe there needs to be.

 

 

[amaff]

 

[marcspaz]

Good video.  I always like his content.  The problem he touches on is, the conflicting and contradictory rules combined with poor definitions and poor word choices.  Until FCC updates the rules with very clear and specific language or a case makes it to the SCOTUS, there won't be a good answer.