GMRS Transitioning to Hobbyist-Type Service?

[intermod]

I thought I would start this thread as LScott noted elsewhere:

"Hummm… This could be the topic for another thread. GMRS seems to be mutating into a hobbyist type service. It seems the original primary intent by the FCC was a radio service simple enough to be used by ordinary people with basically no background in radio communication technology for their personal use, and immediate family members."

GMRS traditionally had been for personal use (family, small groups and very small business), in direct or repeater mode.   Repeaters were stand-alone (not linked).  Large business use was discouraged as the FCC saw this as incompatible with personal communications (which is the main reason the service requires individual licensing).   But the number of users have risen dramatically over the past 5-6 years (particularly in the metro areas), and the service is experiencing some growing pains (busier channels, more IX from businesses, other repeaters, etc.). 

What are the top three causes of this?   In no particular order, here is a potential list: 

• General experimentation with repeaters (duplex or simplex), increasing interference in some areas
• FCC permitting unlicensed 2-watt direct-mode usage
• Unlicensed 2-watt users operating direct-mode digital (NXDN, DMR, etc.)
• Entry by new unsophisticated users
• Linking repeaters using input frequencies (467 MHz; causes interference (IX) to other co-channel repeaters)
• Low cost (primarily Chinese) user equipment and repeaters
• Some sporatic use of digital repeaters on GMRS
• Linking (e.g., Local, Regional, National)
• Low-cost / long-duration licensing
• Russia?

Other ideas?

[kidphc]

It's kinda exploding, if I get the gist of the thread due to the following.

1. No technical/skill block.
-really a poor excuse technician license is easy.
-applying for an lmr simplex frequency can whack you about $500 depending on the cordinator.

2. Cost of entry
-cheap ccr radios
-Ability to use old LMR gear
Really can make repeaters affordable or down right cheap.
-business abuse frs a bit, let's face it lmr service can get expensive, if you don't coordinator.

Contributing factors, cell phone outages want for e-comms, covid boredom

Murs is still available, limited in frequencies. Not exactly sure why it isn't more popular.

A lot of it does come back to $$.

[BoxCar]

9 minutes ago, kidphc said:

It's kinda exploding, if I get the gist of the thread due to the following.

1. No technical/skill block.
-really a poor excuse technician license is easy.
-applying for an lmr simplex frequency can whack you about $500 depending on the cordinator.

The Tech license in amateur radio is limited almost exclusively to VHF/UHF frequencies however, there are so many different modes available you really don't mind the restriction. I'm Extra class but operate primarily in the Tech bands because its so much fun.

[kidphc]

The Tech license in amateur radio is limited almost exclusively to VHF/UHF frequencies however, there are so many different modes available you really don't mind the restriction. I'm Extra class but operate primarily in the Tech bands because its so much fun.

True. I always wished we had more hf privileges, small slices with low power cap. More inline with the foundations license in the Uk. Too bad SHF and EHF gear is so pricey looks like it could be fun to play with.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[dosw]

GMRS has become more popular than MURS because it's better laid out (a contiguous block in the 462s, and a contiguous block in the 467s), more channels, compatible with unlicensed FRS users, repeater availability (making it more attractive to hobbiests and people who need distance), and the fact that you can get a 10 year family-oriented license for $35 without jumping through ham hoops (a test, usually an in-person testing facility).

 

FRS is a gateway drug to GMRS. MURS is the VHF band cousin to FRS. But MURS doesn't have contiguous blocks of frequencies, repeaters, compatibility with a gazillion FRS radios already in peoples homes, MURS doesn't have contiguous frequencies; there are licensed services sandwiched between the MURS frequencies. Repeaters will probably never happen for MURS -- offsets would be really strange, and power is unlikely to go higher than 2w, to protect the paid licensees.

 

GMRS has become popular because of the fact that it is highly compatible, easy to get into, not terribly expensive to grow with, and it's useful.   ...and because it has the Queen as a spokesperson; someone who is pretty entertaining, and a prolific Youtube content creator.

[Raybestos]

It is inevitable, when a number of men (and sometimes women) wind up using shared frequencies in close range of each other, conversations will start.  Eventually, these conversations turn to what type radio and antennas they are running.  Then cable, microphones, ht's, and other stuff.  Eventually, these people want to meet face-to-face and see who they've been talking to.  Friendships and alliances develope.  That was 27 MHz CB in the 1960's and it is GMRS, today.  I see nothing wrong with that.  A sense of community and familiarity is good in that not only these guys, enjoying a sort of "hobby" aspect of two-way radio have someone they can call on for help (car trouble, suspicious vehicle following you, etc), but their wives, children, or girlfriends, have this resource too, so long as there is a radio in their vehicle.

The linking of repeaters and other hobby-like experimentation does seriously detract from the original intended purpose of personal communications, IMHO.  So many people I know act like studying a book for a couple of weeks or a month to get a Technician ham license is this insurmountable hurdle, like they were expected to go to college for a decade and get a Doctorate in electronics or something.  I could almost understand it if Morse was still a requirement, but it isn't.  I hated the code requirement as a kid but as an adult, found that getting 5 WPM really wasn't difficult.  13 WPM was a bear, but that is all water under the bridge, as they say.  If someone wants to do exotic stuff like repeater linking and digital modes, let them get their Technician or higher license.  If not, learn to live without the exotic stuff and enjoy GMRS for what it is.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, BoxCar said:

I'm Extra class but operate primarily in the Tech bands because its so much fun.

Same here.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, dosw said:

and the fact that you can get a 10 year family-oriented license for $35 without jumping through ham hoops (a test, usually an in-person testing facility).

I think this is a big one. I have a buddy at work who has been talking about getting his Ham Tech license for the past few years and so far hasn't. He claims he's too busy to study the question pool.

Some people hate the idea of being required to pass a test so dropping $35 on the debit card and a bit of time filling out the FCC forms for GMRS isn't an issue. The drop in cost and the license term increase to 10 years helped I'm sure.

I think GMRS is taking the place of CB 11M as an introduction to radio. With cheap radios coming to market in the last several years, access to repeaters and now groups like the overlanders, Jeep, switching to GMRS helped spread the word.

With GMRS radios they are small enough to fit in a shirt pocket using a small 6 inch antenna and take with you as opposed to the old CB radio HT's with the 3 to 5 foot long antenna.

[WRVG829]

I think the amateur radio operators have taken over GMRS here locally.  They've driven the change to linking repeaters and "random" contacts on repeaters.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it probably has changed the character of the service overall.  It's like 2M/70cm repeaters were 10 years ago when I first got my Technician class license.  In fact, had GMRS repeaters been as popular when I studied for the Technician license as they are now, I maybe would never have done so.  But I found a hobby and now have my General class license, so I'm glad I did.

As far as the Technician class license not being difficult to get: yeah, if you have a technical background like many of us hams do or don't mind studying some seriously abstract concepts.  I went through the experience of trying to get my local rescue group licensed for amateur radio.  Maybe 25% were capable of doing it without much help just with self-study.  Another 25% were able to get the license with a lot of hand holding.  The remaining 50% couldn't do it, period.  They didn't have a technical background, had no knowledge of how RF and electricity work, and no interest in doing something that other services allow you to do without an exam.  If you're in that latter group, GMRS is the most reasonable choice.  I got 100% of mostly those same people equipped with a GMRS license and radio within a month.  YMMV.

[TrikeRadio]

2 hours ago, dosw said:

GMRS has become popular because...  ...it has the Queen as a spokesperson; someone who is pretty entertaining, and a prolific Youtube content creator.

Which is rather ironic because the Queen insists that GMRS is not for "radio hobbyists" but for "regular people" who want to use if for communications during other activities.

I do primarily use GMRS for practical communications with the rest of our little cycling group. It helps us announce turns and safety issues to everyone during a ride as well as hear back from riders in the group if they need to stop or have had some kind of mechanical problem. And yet I also have a radio geek bug and enjoy learning and using the radio just for the fun of testing and trying things. I dont have a ham license yet, and I may or may not every get one. but GMRS serves both my geeky need to fiddle with radio tech, and a practical use for my cycling hobby.

[WRVG829]

1 hour ago, TrikeRadio said:

Which is rather ironic because the Queen insists that GMRS is not for "radio hobbyists" but for "regular people" who want to use if for communications during other activities.

I do primarily use GMRS for practical communications with the rest of our little cycling group.

GMRS is for what people will use it for, nothing more, nothing less.  I have a "practical communications" use -- comms for our CERT team.  I also use the radio to talk to the guys on the local repeater system because I'm interested in learning new stuff about the hobby.  Although I've been licensed for a couple of years, I just really started using GMRS a few months ago.  I now have *four* GMRS radios in addition to my ham radio equipment.  So I'm a "radio hobbyist" too.  The Queen seems to get pissy when the hobbyist set wants to lecture, and I don't blame him, uh her, uh it, uh Randy.  Telling someone what they can or can't do, what they should or should not do, or being a "rules lawyer" is rarely appreciated by anyone in any walk of life, including radios.   Don't be that person, and I'll bet you can be virtually anything else and be accepted in the hobby.  Even the Queen, although there can only be one.   

[Ian]

13 hours ago, kidphc said:

Murs is still available, limited in frequencies. Not exactly sure why it isn't more popular.

There's an embarrassing dearth of compelling products, IMHO.  Like there's cheap five-channel VHF radios sure, but there's no tiny pocket radios without freebanding a UV-3R, and the two compelling products are niche and expensive:  

Garmin has its Group Ride Radio which can be $1500/vehicle all in

and 

Dakota Alert has its line of products which I want to play with, but can't justifiably afford until I have my first ham radio that'll do more than five watts.

I'd like to point out that I own a small boatload of Dakota Alert radios, and I'd like to decode their "sensor zone" protocol.  Tech support once told me that they operate using modulated CTCSS to identify which of four "zones" is triggered, in addition to playing their voice notification.  On the base stations, this triggers a relay which can be used by anybody with a Radio Shack level of electronic engineering skill to do arbitrary things; on the handies, it sets a notification on the LCD.  

Still, all the kit is designed specifically to cater to rural users' specific pain-points, and isn't easily applied to suburban folks' situations or interfaced with other makers' kit, despite the apparent and alleged protocol simplicity.  

----------------

On the other paw, the Garmin GRR is a nightmare of as-yet-un-reverse-engineered protocol combined with decent hardware and good UI design; if they'd come out with a GMRS version of it, I'd sell my right testicle to outfit my family's vehicles with them.  As it is though, each vehicle really needs three freakin' radios, and even if I use the simplest possible radio in each "slot" it's going to be an unbearably complex experience for my ham-flavored ass, let alone the rest of the family.

 

12 hours ago, RayP said:

I could almost understand it if Morse was still a requirement, but it isn't

That was the turning point for me getting my ticket…

[Lscott]

19 hours ago, kidphc said:

Murs is still available, limited in frequencies. Not exactly sure why it isn't more popular.

Well the frequency limitation is one. Second there are no real mobile radios available, and at a two watt limit on power there isn't much incentive to design and market one either. 

Finally even on VHF repeater access is almost a requirement for decent range extension. MURS doesn't allow it.

Being near the Canadian border I check from time to time to see what the status of a MURS-Like service is there. It almost happened back in 2014 but Industry Canada, equivalent to our FCC, decided there wasn't enough interest in it so it never happened. If it did that might have generated enough of a demand to spark increase use of it on both sides of the border.

https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/spectrum-management-telecommunications/en/official-publications/policies/spectrum-advisory-bulletins-sab/sab-002-14-multi-use-radio-services-150-mhz-vhf-band

What does seem to be catching on there are the VHF frequencies used for their "radio controlled roads" notably out west.

https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/canada-vhf-ladd-channel-list/

I'll bet a lot of Ham 2M gear gets the MARS/CAP mod's for this use.

 

[WRHS218]

21 hours ago, intermod said:

What are the top three causes of this?   In no particular order

HAM, HAM, and HAM. In no particular order.

[Davichko5650]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

 

What does seem to be catching on there are the VHF frequencies used for their "radio controlled roads" notably out west.

https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/canada-vhf-ladd-channel-list/

I'll bet a lot of Ham 2M gear gets the MARS/CAP mod's for this use.

 

Saw a lot of that being used on some of the Ice Road Truckers episodes wen they were hauling in MB and NWON into places I've flown into for the walleyes. May have to revisit them as I never looked close enough to see what radios they used, but most seems to have a CB and a VHF rig in their rigs.

[SteveShannon]

17 minutes ago, WRHS218 said:

HAM, HAM, and HAM. In no particular order.

I disagree.  Hams can already do much more in the amateur bands than they can do in the 22/30 GMRS channels.  I think the people treating GMRS like ham radio are people who want to do ham radio things without having to pass a test.  I understand wanting to maximize the usefulness of GMRS, but for hobbying around, I prefer the ham bands and ham equipment.  

[WRHS218]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

I disagree.  Hams can already do much more in the amateur bands than they can do in the 22/30 GMRS channels.  I think the people treating GMRS like ham radio are people who want to do ham radio things without having to pass a test.  I understand wanting to maximize the usefulness of GMRS, but for hobbying around, I prefer the ham bands and ham equipment.  

It was a joke.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

I disagree.  Hams can already do much more in the amateur bands than they can do in the 22/30 GMRS channels.  I think the people treating GMRS like ham radio are people who want to do ham radio things without having to pass a test.  I understand wanting to maximize the usefulness of GMRS, but for hobbying around, I prefer the ham bands and ham equipment.  

The group that's setup several linked GMRS repeaters lately in my area said they wanted to give people a feel for what is possible on Ham radio. However if you give away too much some will wonder why bother with Ham.

The FCC might take a dislike to the direction GMRS is head towards and tweak the rules to discourage the increasing Ham like activity. Might be one of the reasons for the FCC getting their fingers into things and the current topic of repeater linking on this forum.

[SteveShannon]

30 minutes ago, WRHS218 said:

It was a joke.

That’s the second time this week someone made a joke and I didn’t get it.  Either my sense of humor has been desensed or the humor falls too close to what “some people” would say and I don’t know you well enough to understand that it is humor. Sorry about that.

[Lscott]

3 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

That’s the second time this week someone made a joke and I didn’t get it.  Either my sense of humor has been desensed or the humor falls too close to what “some people” would say and I don’t know you well enough to understand that it is humor. Sorry about that.

No, I think you get it. Maybe some just don't get your brand of humor.

[amaff]

Tone really doesn't come across very well in text, unless you make it, just, STUPID obvious. Especially when, like @SteveShannon said, it's right on the line of what someone might say to make fun of a ham, but also is exactly what some hams might say legitimately

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

No, I think you get it. Maybe some just don't get your brand of humor.

No, I really did miss his joke. But I agree that a lot of people don’t get my humor.  I don’t blame them. I often end up wondering why I thought that what I said was funny.

[WRXB215]

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

Sad but true. I've heard recommendations to just put up the tower/antenna and not even connect it to radio. Then wait a few weeks to see who complains about malfunctioning appliances, radios, TV, stereos, automatic garage doors openers etc. Then you show them there is NO RADIO.

[dosw]

5 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Sad but true. I've heard recommendations to just put up the tower/antenna and not even connect it to radio. Then wait a few weeks to see who complains about malfunctioning appliances, radios, TV, stereos, automatic garage doors openers etc. Then you show them there is NO RADIO.

I do remember in church with my parents, as a kid in the SF Bay Area, for a couple of weeks we would witness a ton of interference coming through the building's mic system. And the system was entirely hard-wired, no radio equipment involved. The interference was unintelligible but clearly some form of modulation of spoken voice transmissions. It would cut in and out, presumably as someone was keying up a mic and talking.

 

I'm not sure how they got the situation resolved. In ham defense, it was probably a CB operator with a blowtorch of a linear amplifier; this was the 70s, when CB was a lot more popular. I do know it stopped after a few weeks. Someone nearby was putting out some serious power with unrefined spurious emissions to be getting picked up by a PA system that was completely hardwired.