Linking GMRS Repeaters

[WRUE951]

2 hours ago, linx said:

I do understand the rule now, but even still, whoever is writing this is awful at their job. "Or other networks" should appear directly after "telephone connection" in "Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited". 

 

2 hours ago, linx said:

I do understand the rule now, but even still, whoever is writing this is awful at their job. "Or other networks" should appear directly after "telephone connection" in "Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited". 

understanding now and not before???    The rules never changed...   

[linx]

4 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

 

understanding now and not before???    The rules never changed...   

Yes now that they clarified. I understand the rule never changed, but the rule itself is so poorly written it leaves room to speculate. It should have been written "Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection or other networks is prohibited".

Do you not understand that laws and rules can be interpreted differently by people? This is why terms of service for websites are 40 pages long.

[GreggInFL]

I recall my drafting professor saying, "If a drawing can be interpreted more than one way, it's wrong."

[Davichko5650]

5 hours ago, linx said:

I do understand the rule now, but even still, whoever is writing this is awful at their job. "Or other networks" should appear directly after "telephone connection" in "Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited". 

What a lot are missing is the part of 97.1733 (a) (8) 

(8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station;

The internet is chock full of wireline control links. So it's not the POTS or other networks, but this that is the main point they're following to disallow linking repeaters. The internet is hardly wireless, even in the age of wi-fi and 5G

 

[linx]

3 minutes ago, Davichko5650 said:

What a lot are missing is the part of 97.1733 (a) (8) 

(8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station;

The internet is chock full of wireline control links. So it's not the POTS or other networks, but this that is the main point they're following to disallow linking repeaters. The internet is hardly wireless, even in the age of wi-fi and 5G

 

Great additional point. Even if you are wireless, it becomes wired in the chain somewhere when using the internet. Even in the case of starlink, they eventually have ground stations, and I guess that could be considered "Wireline".

Now if they said that they just don't want them on the internet, I would have snagged some air fiber units, but I think it is pretty clear they don't want linking at all. 

[WRUE951]

4 hours ago, linx said:

Yes now that they clarified. I understand the rule never changed, but the rule itself is so poorly written it leaves room to speculate. It should have been written "Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection or other networks is prohibited".

Do you not understand that laws and rules can be interpreted differently by people? This is why terms of service for websites are 40 pages long.

very clear to me, i knew better....   I guess if you want to do something, your gonna find a way around something to do it...  

[marcspaz]

I'm sure someone is going to point out that none of this is in the FCC PRS and/or GMRS rules... and I am aware.

That said. it looks like you need to be a lawyer to decipher this stuff.  It doesn't help when the FCC doesn't define things like "wireline control link".  The only place I can find that the FCC specifically mention a "control link" is in 47 CFR § 97.213 - Telecommand of an amateur station.  It says "A control link using a fiber optic cable or another telecommunication service is considered wireline."

 

This is the definition the FCC provides for "telecommunication".

Telecommunication

Any transmission, emission or reception of signs, signals, writings, images and sounds or intelligence of any nature by wire, radio, optical or other electromagnetic systems.

Common Carrier
In the telecommunications arena, the term used to describe a telephone company.

Network
Any connection of two or more computers that enables them to communicate. Networks may include transmission devices, servers, cables, routers and satellites. The phone network is the total infrastructure for transmitting phone messages.

Telecommand

The use of telecommunication for the transmission of signals to initiate, modify or terminate functions of equipment at a distance.

 

Citations:

https://www.fcc.gov/general/glossary-telecommunications-terms

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/2.1

https://www.fcc.gov/wireline-competition

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.213

 

[WRQC527]

6 hours ago, linx said:

This is why terms of service for websites are 40 pages long.

This reminds me of the old saying that goes something like this: The most often-told lie in history is when you check the box that says "I have read these terms and conditions."

[nokones]

I need take a look at the rule again, maybe it is time to start buying operational fixed station equipment and/ are microwave for linking 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

I'm sure someone is going to point out that none of this is in the FCC PRS and/or GMRS rules... and I am aware.

That said. it looks like you need to be a lawyer to decipher this stuff.  It doesn't help when the FCC doesn't define things like "wireline control link".  The only place I can find that the FCC specifically mention a "control link" is in 47 CFR § 97.213 - Telecommand of an amateur station.  It says "A control link using a fiber optic cable or another telecommunication service is considered wireline."

 

This is the definition the FCC provides for "telecommunication".

Telecommunication

Any transmission, emission or reception of signs, signals, writings, images and sounds or intelligence of any nature by wire, radio, optical or other electromagnetic systems.

Common Carrier
In the telecommunications arena, the term used to describe a telephone company.

Network
Any connection of two or more computers that enables them to communicate. Networks may include transmission devices, servers, cables, routers and satellites. The phone network is the total infrastructure for transmitting phone messages.

Telecommand

The use of telecommunication for the transmission of signals to initiate, modify or terminate functions of equipment at a distance.

 

Citations:

https://www.fcc.gov/general/glossary-telecommunications-terms

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/2.1

https://www.fcc.gov/wireline-competition

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.213

 

In a repeater, is the repeater controller that connects a receiver and a transmitter a wireline link? 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

In a repeater, is the repeater controller that connects a receiver and a transmitter a wireline link? 

 

I mean, the definitions are so confusing that it could inadvertently be the case, if the receiver and transmitter are two separate devices connected by any cable. LoL. The only saving grace would be in the PRS rules stating that wirelinking at the same physical location is exempt.

[WRKC935]

7 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

In a repeater, is the repeater controller that connects a receiver and a transmitter a wireline link? 

Yes and no, but connecting two separate radio's together and calling it a repeater, like ham operators do is not a part 95 or even part 90 accepted 'repeater'.

Wireline is remote link.  meaning the TX and audio source are in two different places.  Any remote control where the intelligence being transmitted outside of the shared specific RX frequency is wireline control. 

Meaning that what I am doing with an IP based console with the radio's at the tower site, a microwave link to the house and the console being operated from my house is 'wireline'.  Of course, I am going to continue to do that, but it's still technically illegal.

 

[WRUE951]

13 hours ago, marcspaz said:

I'm sure someone is going to point out that none of this is in the FCC PRS and/or GMRS rules... and I am aware.

That said. it looks like you need to be a lawyer to decipher this stuff.  It doesn't help when the FCC doesn't define things like "wireline control link".  The only place I can find that the FCC specifically mention a "control link" is in 47 CFR § 97.213 - Telecommand of an amateur station.  It says "A control link using a fiber optic cable or another telecommunication service is considered wireline."

 

This is the definition the FCC provides for "telecommunication".

Telecommunication

Any transmission, emission or reception of signs, signals, writings, images and sounds or intelligence of any nature by wire, radio, optical or other electromagnetic systems.

Common Carrier
In the telecommunications arena, the term used to describe a telephone company.

Network
Any connection of two or more computers that enables them to communicate. Networks may include transmission devices, servers, cables, routers and satellites. The phone network is the total infrastructure for transmitting phone messages.

Telecommand

The use of telecommunication for the transmission of signals to initiate, modify or terminate functions of equipment at a distance.

 

Citations:

https://www.fcc.gov/general/glossary-telecommunications-terms

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/2.1

https://www.fcc.gov/wireline-competition

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.213

 

well no $hit

[WRUE951]

On 9/4/2024 at 12:29 PM, linx said:

Yes now that they clarified. I understand the rule never changed, but the rule itself is so poorly written it leaves room to speculate. It should have been written "Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection or other networks is prohibited".

Do you not understand that laws and rules can be interpreted differently by people? This is why terms of service for websites are 40 pages long.

yea, they write those 40 pages for morons that refuse to understand simple language..  

[linx]

4 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

yea, they write those 40 pages for morons that refuse to understand simple language..  

Well yeah, you are the smartest and most understanding person in the room obviously.

[WRQC527]

2 hours ago, linx said:

Well yeah, you are the smartest and most understanding person in the room obviously.

Don't encourage him. He'll just keep insulting everyone until people stop responding. Seriously. The Ignore User list is your friend.

[WRUE951]

2 hours ago, linx said:

Well yeah, you are the smartest and most understanding person in the room obviously.

common sense is really not that hard to come by,, A little goes a long way..  Try it some time..   

[kc9pke]

On 9/4/2024 at 10:00 PM, nokones said:

I need take a look at the rule again, maybe it is time to start buying operational fixed station equipment and/ are microwave for linking 

Used to be a Part 94 on the books for microwave radio services, and GMRS users used to be allowed to license a fixed point to point link in P94 somewhere in the 31 GHz band

I have a feeling if the FCC wanted GMRS repeaters to be linked they wouldn't have axed that decades ago

[Hoppyjr]

Don't encourage him. He'll just keep insulting everyone until people stop responding. Seriously. The Ignore User list is your friend.

When I read his posts I picture…..

[WRUQ758]

It is pretty clear that repeaters may not be linked via the Internet. With that said I am confused with "remote control". So if I have a base station or repeater on a silo on the farm and I use the internet to "control" that repeater from the farmhouse is this allowed? To me that equates to the old tone remote controlling a base station on a mountaintop with the remote on the desk in the office. Here is where what sounds contradictory: "Repeaters may be connected to the telephone network or other networks only for purposes of remote control of a GMRS station, not for carrying communication signals"

Remote control if a GMRS station to me means using a remote to operate the transmitter AND turn the station on/off, yet "not carrying communication signals" seems to mean you can't send your voice to your remote base/repeater.

Opinion: With the supreme court making rulings on guns based on "history and what is commonly used" than this same theory should apply in this regard. Historically remote control of a base or repeater was always done with a tone or DC remote with mic or handset on the desk. You are controlling or turning on the transmitter with the remote mic PTT. Again, I am talking controlling one bas with a remote desk set. 

[marcspaz]

18 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

Don't encourage him. He'll just keep insulting everyone until people stop responding. Seriously. The Ignore User list is your friend.

 

Kirk may have broken a Forum record for being on the most ignore lists since its inception. 

[marcspaz]

7 minutes ago, WRUQ758 said:

It is pretty clear that repeaters may not be linked via the Internet. With that said I am confused with "remote control". So if I have a base station or repeater on a silo on the farm and I use the internet to "control" that repeater from the farmhouse is this allowed? To me that equates to the old tone remote controlling a base station on a mountaintop with the remote on the desk in the office. Here is where what sounds contradictory: "Repeaters may be connected to the telephone network or other networks only for purposes of remote control of a GMRS station, not for carrying communication signals"

Remote control if a GMRS station to me means using a remote to operate the transmitter AND turn the station on/off, yet "not carrying communication signals" seems to mean you can't send your voice to your remote base/repeater.

Opinion: With the supreme court making rulings on guns based on "history and what is commonly used" than this same theory should apply in this regard. Historically remote control of a base or repeater was always done with a tone or DC remote with mic or handset on the desk. You are controlling or turning on the transmitter with the remote mic PTT. Again, I am talking controlling one bas with a remote desk set. 

 

I think you are on the right track, when it come to pointing out the conflicting rules.  However, The courts wouldn't look at this from a Constitutional Rights violation.  If someone ends up in court over it, there is a good possibility that the argument will be over what the definition of "is" is... if you get my meaning.

[WRUE951]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

 

Kirk may have broken a Forum record for being on the most ignore lists since its inception. 

sure looks like your are ignoring me   LMAO  

[WRUQ758]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

I think you are on the right track, when it come to pointing out the conflicting rules.  However, The courts wouldn't look at this from a Constitutional Rights violation.  If someone ends up in court over it, there is a good possibility that the argument will be over what the definition of "is" is... if you get my meaning.

I called the FCC and the opinion of the call taker was that it's OK to control your transmitter with a remote but he seemed confused too as to what constituted "control". I think a lot of what was written on the FCC site reg GMRS linking is opinion. 

[WRUQ758]

Found this:

§ 90.461 - Direct and remote control of transmitters.

(a) In general. Radio transmitters may be operated and controlled directly (as when the operating position for the transmitter and the transmitter being operated are at the same location), or remotely (as when the transmitter being operated and the position from which it is being operated are at different locations).

(b) Control of transmitters at remote locations. Radio transmitters at remote locations may be operated and controlled through the use of wire line or radio links; or through dial-up circuits, as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. Such control links or circuits may be either those of the licensee or they may be provided by common carriers authorized by law to furnish such service.

(c) Dial-up circuits. Dial-up circuits may be provided by wire line telephone companies under appropriate tariffs, and they may be used by licensees for purposes of transmitter control, provided:

(1) The dial-up circuits serve only to link licensed transmitter control points and the transmitters being controlled.

(2) The dial-up circuits are so designed that the transmitters being controlled cannot be operated from any fixed position other than the licensed control points for those transmitters.

(3) Equipment used to provide the transmitter/dial-up-circuit interface is designed to preclude associated mobile units of the licensee from reaching any point(s) served by the wire line telephone facilities other than the control point(s) of the station(s) controlled.

(4) Any direct electrical connection to the telephone network shall comply with applicable tariffs and with part 68 of the Commission's Rules (See § 90.5(j)).

(5) Interconnection, within the meaning of §§ 90.7 and 90.477 through 90.483, may not take place at a control point which connects to its associated transmitter(s) through dial-up circuits; nor may such dial-up transmitter control circuits be used in conjunction with (or shared by) interconnection equipment.