Govt Interference (Think About Who is Really TYRANICAL ) Votes Count

[RayDiddio]

20 hours ago, Newb said:

Why did the FCC choose GMRS to attack?  Any ideas? They let CB run rampant. Why is there a different connection between the government and HAM radio?

Not seeing a lot of Citizen's Band repeaters in my area. Last count had it at zero.

CB is a wasteland. I spent 20+ years on CB and even met my wife on the radio more than 30 years ago. It was the wild wild west back in the early 1990s through the early 2000s and from listening on my scanner these days, I can see it has gotten even worse than it was back then! So you are right that CB runs rampant and amok while GMRS, where you pay for a license, gets a few cuts here and there on the path to slowly bleeding out and becoming the next CB radio.

[WRXB215]

23 minutes ago, RayDiddio said:

slowly bleeding out and becoming the next CB radio

I know it can sometimes be rough hear and there but I don't think GMRS will ever be like CB. I think the fact that you have to get a license and your info is public keeps the biggest jerks away. It's easier to be a jerk anonymously on CB which makes people bolder on that service.

[WRKC935]

2 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

You were doing so well until you said the above.

I would agree that the role of ham radio is not what it once was, because of things like satellite communications like you mentioned, but in any true emergency, there’s always a role for yet another avenue of communications. Compared to the number of hams, satellite phones are very few.  As such, they should be relegated to the higher priority tasks.  But many people won’t have access to satellite phones and they will still crave hearing from their loved ones and still need to hear what’s happening in the rest of the world.

Yes, I agree if they will accept that their role has changed and it's not going to be what it once was.  Problem is that many of them feel that HF is the only method of communications in a disaster.  They somehow believe that Texas is somehow going to be the people to contact from Ohio in the event of an emergency. 

I realize that NVIS can limit the distance.  I realize that there are situations that do call for long distance communications.  And I guess it needs to be said that my frame of reference is the local groups.  Others may be doing something different but it seems the locals are stuck in the 1960's.  Hence the comment of a solution looking for a problem. 

And I have said openly that there are other things that are ham radio that could be brought to bear in a disaster situation.  AREDN is a big one.  A completely isolated medium speed IP based data network could be a game changer.  Employing WINLINK in shelters for citizens to email family and friends about health and welfare and carrying that traffic out of a disaster zone would be something.  But I see some saying that's not who they want to support.  They seem to think that the government entities are the only ones they want to deal with.  And there is no microphone involved so it gets poo pooed and forgotten.  Again, personal experience.

But with that experience, I am not seeing THIS ham community wanting to expand what they can bring to bear and only want to show up to pass voice and some minor data via packet at 1200 baud.  And I am not saying that the data transfer's aren't needed.  But if you can do that, and ship 10 fps video at 800 by 600.  Photo's and all the rest in a timely manner, wouldn't that be better?

 

[WRXB215]

18 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

Employing WINLINK in shelters for citizens to email family and friends about health and welfare and carrying that traffic out of a disaster zone would be something.  But I see some saying that's not who they want to support.  They seem to think that the government entities are the only ones they want to deal with.

That's sad. I'd rather support the citizens. I assume the government entities can take care of themselves. I'd rather not serve the government anyway, they are supposed to serve us.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

And I am not saying that the data transfer's aren't needed.  But if you can do that, and ship 10 fps video at 800 by 600.  Photo's and all the rest in a timely manner, wouldn't that be better?

Yes, absolutely. 
I think we’re in agreement that ham radio operators need to be open to new ways we can help. 

[WRUE951]

3 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

I know it can sometimes be rough hear and there but I don't think GMRS will ever be like CB. I think the fact that you have to get a license and your info is public keeps the biggest jerks away. It's easier to be a jerk anonymously on CB which makes people bolder on that service.

GMRS is full of un-licensed users and jerks are wild. .  The further you get away form metropolitan areas the better and more decent GMRS gets.. A few months ago traveling east from Arizona showed just how bad GMRS linking really was..  Hopefully GMRS will now recover a little bit but nothing is going to keep the 'jerks' from using the bands to chit chat as if they were on a CB..  Half of them don't have a license and never will.  

[808Beachbum]

It seems everyone has lost sight of, or NEVER bothered to look at, the overall purpose for GMRS. It is a VERY limited service, INTENTIONALLY. As such, it makes perfect sense to limit power, antenna choices, and a maximum of 22 channels (some shared with specific repeater channels). It also makes sense to have minimal licensing requirements.

As one poster mentioned, CB turned into the wild west. It too started as 23 discrete channels, then increased to 40, in the 11 meter band, AM mode (with sidebands). In the 70's and 80's, I had a Royce sideband base station with Astatic Golden Eagle D-104 mic, a 40 foot Rohn tower with Ham IV rotator, Moonraker 4 beam, and an Astroplane omnidirectional. My Royce was modified by a friend to have around 15 additional channels, and I had a 500 watt tube type heater. Living at a very high point in our county, I could routinely, and without using the heater, communicate throughout about a 60 mile radius. Great times, until the licensing was relaxed on that service. Between the jerks and the solar activity, it became largely useless by the 90's.

GMRS is now essentially starting out somewhat the same, albeit in FM UHF, with the addition of repeater functionality, and greatly reduced options for antennas and power. Repeaters alone provide great functionality for their intended use...to reasonably expand a unique group/family communication area, whether that is a farm, ranch, or larger family business. Portable repeaters provide additional capability for those groups that travel together, such as offroaders, hikers, skiers, and the like.

Neither of these services is oriented towards the same type of person as Amateur (ham) Radio. CB and GMRS/FRS are EXTREMELY limited as to total bandwidth allocated, mode of operation, and both are restricted to specific frequencies. They are intentionally, very simple in capability and operation. If you are not already part of a group, or plan on comms primarily among your family members, it is a mistake to believe you will be able to randomly talk to people all over the state/country/world. Certain locales may have heavier traffic, but you should determine that prior to purchasing equipment. Look for GMRS and Amateur Radio clubs in your region. There will be people there that can give you better local guidance.

Here's a link to a graphic chart of all of the US frequency allocations. If everyone was allowed to just run amok with freqs and power, comms would suffer for all. There is a reason for Band allocation, and the restrictions placed on them.

Amateur Radio OTOH, has relatively huge overall bandwidth available, across multiple frequency bands, and is very much oriented toward those that want to experiment with modifications to, and a wide variety of, antennas, transceivers, and ancillary equipment; utilize various bands and modes of operation, including various digital modes, some over internet; enables operators unlimited frequency choices within bands and ranges authorized with their license; and repeater linking by both radio and internet are common and well used. There are so many different areas you can learn about and experiment with in Amateur Radio. Moonbounce, talking to ISS, using satellite repeaters, slow scan tv, CCW (using Morse code), building hotspots that allow you to talk around the world from your HT, remote antenna control access, and so much more.

Amateur Radio clubs are more likely to be affiliated with local or state Emergency Management, although certainly NOT all clubs are...many are primarily just into contesting. The simple fact is, a lot of those club members actually work at various Emergency Management organizations, and it is a mutually beneficial relationship, usually allowing club repeaters to be installed on govt towers, or govt actually providing their repeaters for club use. Very few govt affiliates are serious about GMRS, although may include it in addition to ham capabilities. OTOH, I dare say a large percentage of those agencies DO have ham capabilities, which of course still vary by locale, but are more prevalent nonetheless.

GMRS quite simply doesn't have 1/100th of the capability or users worldwide compared to ham. You can't "modify" your way out of its perceived shortcomings. I did read somewhere that locally, we have about equal amounts of licensed GMRS operators to Tech grade only licensed Amateurs. It is still a very low number given the population. With population across the islands of around 1.4 million, in my urban location there is virtually NO random calls. Everything is clearly school, family, and small business comms. Do you know why there are multiple ham frequency bands, or what difference they make? Oversimplified, different bands react differently to solar activity, which in turn affects how far and how well your signal is transmitted. One band often outperforms another when trying for long distances, depending on current solar activity. this can change daily, weekly, monthly, and there are yearly cycles. GMRS is pretty limited to sightlines only, with minimal obstructions for greatest range. Urban areas will be very limited...I get about 2 miles generally decent, from a mid level concrete bunker; 3 or more miles only to other very high points. I did some testing with a ham buddy to determine actual range with the GMRS, and plotted it on googleearth for future reference. I have no plans to regularly use or monitor the GMRS, but have them as a Plan C or D...

For all you Satellite phone types, whatcha gonna do when Rocket Man or Putin starts taking out our Satellites? You'd probably be quite surprised to find out just how many ham rigs are stored in faraday cages for TEOTWAWKI, if you survive.

[GreggInFL]

^ Putin loses that scenario.

<Cheyenne Mountain/NORAD once upon a time.  Keep your sat phone, and your H.A.M. rig. 

[WRXB215]

@WRUE951 that must be regional. I operate in the Houston area and the only unlicensed chatter I've heard is on simplex with a very weak signal which tells me they are on FRS radios.

[WRKC935]

10 hours ago, RayDiddio said:

Not seeing a lot of Citizen's Band repeaters in my area. Last count had it at zero.

CB is a wasteland. I spent 20+ years on CB and even met my wife on the radio more than 30 years ago. It was the wild wild west back in the early 1990s through the early 2000s and from listening on my scanner these days, I can see it has gotten even worse than it was back then! So you are right that CB runs rampant and amok while GMRS, where you pay for a license, gets a few cuts here and there on the path to slowly bleeding out and becoming the next CB radio.

I don't know that we would ever see the level of abuse that 27 Mhz CB gets.  At least not the power level stuff. 

Reason being that UHF is line of site.  It doesn't matter if you are running 10 watts or 10000 watts, the RF doesn't turn, and it doesn't 'skip'.  So you aren't going to see people taking old analog TV transmitters and converting them to run on GMRS (yes it would be possible depends on the channel assignment of the old transmitter).  And you aren't going to see them using old modified TV transmit antenna's that are slot design either.  Those antenna's are stupid expensive and require a large (antenna's are 100 foot long and weigh 10K pounds assembled) on GMRS either.  And even if they did, the curvature of the earth and the fact that UHF doesn't 'skip' like 27 Mhz will still limits the total distance that you can talk.  And that says NOTHING of being about to receive.  You're not gonna run a 'duplexer' at 10KW and be able to hear anything.  Or even find a duplexer that will support that power level.  So the maximum you are going to pull off is about 1KW if you ignore the 50 watt mandate and go for broke.  And you still aren't gonna be able to run a repeater at that power level because of the duplexer thing.  For a repeater you are really limited to about 250 or 350 watts with a single site repeater.  The other problem with operating at those power levels is it's not gonna be portable / mobile.  Antenna systems for mobile operations don't exist for that.  And anything you can reasonably build that would work on a car is going to be a unity gain quarter wave.  To start building 'gain' antenna's the element to element phasing networks would be HUGE to put multiple 1/4 or 5/8 wave radiators all in phase.  Television antenna's, as discussed before, are 4 to 6 foot wide.  There is room in them for this stuff.  But even taking a top section (25 foot tall and 2500 pounds) and bolting it to the top of a suburban or van isn't going to be reasonable.  And the fact that gain antenna's with much less input power will exceed the field strength performance of a 1/4 wave antenna at 1 KW, it's just not feasible.   Take 1 KW and start working backwards, taking 3 dB of signal at a time.  So 3 dB down from 1KW is 500 watts.  Then 3dB more is 250 watts.  The last 3dB down is 125 watts.  So we are talking that a 9dB gain antenna with 125 watts is going to generate the same field strength as a 1/4 unity gain antenna with 1KW of drive power.  And of course 125 watts is easy to achieve, a 9dB gain antenna that will support 125 watts is a shelf item.  You see where I am going with this.  

And for those that don't know.  FRS radios have antennas that can't be removed for this reason.  Antenna gain and placement is far more effective than having a bunch of brute power driving your signal.    For those that see the silly 20 mile talk distance for an FRS radio and claim it's not possible.  It certainly is possible in the right situation.  I have seen it done by tower crews working at height aligning a microwave hop that was 23 miles.  Of course they were both over 200 feet in the air when they were doing it.  But it was working.  Ground level would work as well mountain top to mountain top with no obstruction between. 

[SteveShannon]

50 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

I don't know that we would ever see the level of abuse that 27 Mhz CB gets.  At least not the power level stuff. 

Reason being that UHF is line of site.  It doesn't matter if you are running 10 watts or 10000 watts, the RF doesn't turn, and it doesn't 'skip'.  So you aren't going to see people taking old analog TV transmitters and converting them to run on GMRS (yes it would be possible depends on the channel assignment of the old transmitter).  And you aren't going to see them using old modified TV transmit antenna's that are slot design either.  Those antenna's are stupid expensive and require a large (antenna's are 100 foot long and weigh 10K pounds assembled) on GMRS either.  And even if they did, the curvature of the earth and the fact that UHF doesn't 'skip' like 27 Mhz will still limits the total distance that you can talk.  And that says NOTHING of being about to receive.  You're not gonna run a 'duplexer' at 10KW and be able to hear anything.  Or even find a duplexer that will support that power level.  So the maximum you are going to pull off is about 1KW if you ignore the 50 watt mandate and go for broke.  And you still aren't gonna be able to run a repeater at that power level because of the duplexer thing.  For a repeater you are really limited to about 250 or 350 watts with a single site repeater.  The other problem with operating at those power levels is it's not gonna be portable / mobile.  Antenna systems for mobile operations don't exist for that.  And anything you can reasonably build that would work on a car is going to be a unity gain quarter wave.  To start building 'gain' antenna's the element to element phasing networks would be HUGE to put multiple 1/4 or 5/8 wave radiators all in phase.  Television antenna's, as discussed before, are 4 to 6 foot wide.  There is room in them for this stuff.  But even taking a top section (25 foot tall and 2500 pounds) and bolting it to the top of a suburban or van isn't going to be reasonable.  And the fact that gain antenna's with much less input power will exceed the field strength performance of a 1/4 wave antenna at 1 KW, it's just not feasible.   Take 1 KW and start working backwards, taking 3 dB of signal at a time.  So 3 dB down from 1KW is 500 watts.  Then 3dB more is 250 watts.  The last 3dB down is 125 watts.  So we are talking that a 9dB gain antenna with 125 watts is going to generate the same field strength as a 1/4 unity gain antenna with 1KW of drive power.  And of course 125 watts is easy to achieve, a 9dB gain antenna that will support 125 watts is a shelf item.  You see where I am going with this.  

And for those that don't know.  FRS radios have antennas that can't be removed for this reason.  Antenna gain and placement is far more effective than having a bunch of brute power driving your signal.    For those that see the silly 20 mile talk distance for an FRS radio and claim it's not possible.  It certainly is possible in the right situation.  I have seen it done by tower crews working at height aligning a microwave hop that was 23 miles.  Of course they were both over 200 feet in the air when they were doing it.  But it was working.  Ground level would work as well mountain top to mountain top with no obstruction between. 

But with the right amplifier on UHF, just think of how clear EME could be!

[WRUE951]

10 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

@WRUE951 that must be regional. I operate in the Houston area and the only unlicensed chatter I've heard is on simplex with a very weak signal which tells me they are on FRS radios.

we traveled further north from Houston. The highest GMRS traffic areas encountered were through Phoenix, Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Kansas City, St. Louis. Ohio ,Penn and New York really bad.   Also noticed a lot of trucker traffic along the long interstates. They like to hang out on 18 and 6..  I talked with a few truckers, they all seem to have both CB and GMRS radios and they chit chat on both. Many of them saying they prefer GMRS.  Not a single Trucker i talked with had a GMRS lic and most said they wouldnt even bother with getting one.. I would say 70% of the traffic i listened to, didn't use a GMRS lic call signs.  But i did notice the Traffic in parts of Ohio, all of Penn and New York did use  call signs and many using phonetic alphabet.   Just like the CB, you get all the foul mouth chatter in most areas.  I could not use the scanner function during most of the trip, else it would drive you nuts..  I did program my radio to scan my 4 favorite ch's and those kept pretty busy..  Also used many repeaters through the trip and most of them worked pretty good..   Repeater traffic seemed most prevalent in parts of New Mexico, Oklahoma, Ohio, Penn and New York.  GMRS traffic was definaly pretty busy for most of the trip and having the GMRS mobile radio kept Highway boredom from kicking in..  

[AdmiralCochrane]

I'm still dizzy.

 

[SteveShannon]

15 hours ago, 808Beachbum said:

It seems everyone has lost sight of, or NEVER bothered to look at, the overall purpose for GMRS. It is a VERY limited service, INTENTIONALLY.

Not everyone.  Many of us have mentioned this multiple times.

[WRXB215]

@WRUE951 sorry to hear it is so bad in some areas. So far my experience has been very positive on both GMRS and ham. I wish everyone could have as good an experience and just have good clean effective communications.

[RayDiddio]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:21 PM, WRXB215 said:

I know it can sometimes be rough hear and there but I don't think GMRS will ever be like CB. I think the fact that you have to get a license and your info is public keeps the biggest jerks away. It's easier to be a jerk anonymously on CB which makes people bolder on that service.

Don't forget that CB was license required until 1983.

[WRUE951]

2 hours ago, RayDiddio said:

Don't forget that CB was license required until 1983.

• True, but do you remember many people that used their call sign?    396 out

[LeoG]

I did

[808Beachbum]

14 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

• True, but do you remember many people that used their call sign?    396 out

Always did, Flash Gordon, King Zebra Charlie 4437!

[AdmiralCochrane]

KAIX 3715

[WRQI583]

In my opinion, if we had a large scale emergency, I do not think that licenses are going to matter. You will be more focused on loved ones and trying to survive and radio will be on the back burner on a list of priorities.

On a small scale such as when a weather event devastates an area? It would be advisable for most anyone to possess both a Ham and GMRS license if you want to be of the most use in helping with communications. Please do remember that in a disaster, there is a good chance that repeaters wont work and if there is anyone in the Ham or GMRS world that still has the smarts, emergency repeaters or crossband units would need to be deployed to expand coverage. Either way, having both licenses is good to have. My wife and I have both and haven't used GMRS in quite awhile and rarely use Ham, but they are there if I needed them.

[SteveShannon]

One of the myths around radio regulations is that “in an emergency, nobody needs to worry about licensing.”  
It’s not true.  Every class of license has rules that specify what may be done in the event of an actual emergency.  For GMRS, the rule regarding emergencies says that in an emergency a license holder may allow anyone to operate his or her station.  
 

The difference is subtle (and perhaps pedantic) but is not the same as saying that anything goes, nor should it be.  Having a bunch of people who know nothing about GMRS (or any other service) suddenly start using the service, without knowing anything about the channels, the limitations, and the capabilities, will only serve as an impediment to effective communication.
 

[LeoG]

You know.  If I'm in a situation and the only thing around is a HAM station and I don't have a license for it guess what?  I'm going to be calling out on that radio because at that point it was my only communication available.  That's just real life.

[WRXB215]

It's a good idea to use your radio regularly to stay in practice. In an emergency stress will be high and the last thing you want is to be fumbling with the radio or worse, a dead battery.

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, LeoG said:

You know.  If I'm in a situation and the only thing around is a HAM station and I don't have a license for it guess what?  I'm going to be calling out on that radio because at that point it was my only communication available.  That's just real life.

I understand, and I think most people feel the same way, but have you actually thought it through? Do you have an actual plan or would you just be transmitting on random frequencies hoping that someone is listening? In real life, many people mistake hope for a plan.