Found This Interesting - GMRS Users Are Forbidden To Talk To Amateur Stations

[Guest]

Copy from:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2023-title47-vol5/xml/CFR-2023-title47-vol5-sec95-1733.xml

Look at item (9) Sorry about the formatting, this Forum uses double spacing and this copy would be a two foot scroll.

"(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station; "

My understanding of the meaning of "station" is, a facility consisting of radio transmitter and receiver equipment where an operator can access and use the equipment. ie, An "Amateur Station" is what every Ham has and if I read this rule correctly, you have to leave your station (if you are a Ham) to use a GMRS radio.

Copy from the link follows...

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses. (a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate: (1) Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law; (2) False or deceptive messages; (3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible); (4) Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain; (5) Advertisements or offers for the sale of goods or services; (6) Advertisements for a political candidate or political campaign (messages about the campaign business may be communicated); (7) International distress signals, such as the word “Mayday” (except when on a ship, aircraft or other vehicle in immediate danger to ask for help); (8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station; (9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station; (10) Continuous or uninterrupted transmissions, except for communications involving the immediate safety of life or property; and (11) Messages for public address systems. (12) The provision of § 95.333 apply, however, if the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary. (b) GMRS stations must not be used for one-way communications other than those listed in § 95.1731(b). Initial transmissions to establish two-way communications and data transmissions listed in § 95.1731(d) are not considered to be one-way communications for the purposes of this section.

 

I expect this post to draw considerable fire so as adults, lets keep it a little civil... this website does not have any provisions for preventing minors from getting an earful

[WRYZ926]

Old news since both services require separate licenses. 

And yes you can use cross band repeat on an unlocked amateur dual band radio to transmit on GMRS to 2m. Though I do not suggest doing that since it is against FCC regulations. Plus you will have a bunch of people get on you if you give your GMRS call sign on 2m.

I only mention this as it can be legally done only in case of an actual emergency.

[Guest]

Yes that is why gmrs radios are locked to gmrs and ham radios are locked out of gmrs.  Pretty standard stuff that you agreed to when you signed up for a gmrs license with the fcc.   

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRKW566 said:

My understanding of the meaning of "station" is, a facility consisting of radio transmitter and receiver equipment where an operator can access and use the equipment. ie, An "Amateur Station" is what every Ham has and if I read this rule correctly, you have to leave your station (if you are a Ham) to use a GMRS radio.

Nearly everything of significance is defined by the FCC. GMRS is one of the Personal Radio Services. Here’s the definition of a station:

Personal Radio Services station. Any transmitter, with or without an incorporated antenna or receiver, which is certified by the FCC to be operated in one or more of the Personal Radio Services.

[SteveShannon]

As far as communicating between a ham station and a GMRS licensee, it could be easily done by having the ham transmit on a ham frequency and received on a ham receiver by the GMRS licensee. No rule prohibits any person from receiving on ham frequencies.
Then the GMRS licensee could transmit on the GMRS station. No rule prohibits any person from receiving on GMRS frequencies. 
But both transmissions would violate the regulations against one way transmissions. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WRKW566 said:

My understanding of the meaning of "station" is, a facility consisting of radio transmitter and receiver equipment where an operator can access and use the equipment. ie, An "Amateur Station" is what every Ham has and if I read this rule correctly, you have to leave your station (if you are a Ham) to use a GMRS radio.

This is what I was getting at. So far, no one has addressed this. Steve got close with a definition of "station" but the thing I'm trying to address is the physical isolation issue. If you are in your Ham shack, you can't be talking to us lowly GMRS users. Reason I went here is about Amateur operators (forgive me) preaching to GMRS users from the comfort of their more educated, experienced position. You shouldn't care one iota about what GMRS users are doing, you can't be talking to them on the radio unless you get up and go outside.

I just got fed up with the Meshtastic nonsense. I think I have reached that point with the GMRS Internet experience. This has run it's coarse with the preaching and hostile posts here on mygmrs and Reddit as well. None of you will miss me and I don't even know who any of you are so there is a mutual no-loss benefit here.

[WRYZ926]

Now why would I have to go outside to use my GMRS radio? There is nothing stating that I can't have a Amateur radio sitting next to my GMRS radio in my shack as long as I am properly licensed for both and follow all rules for both services.

Using that logic, no one can have both a amateur radio and GMRS radio in their vehicles at the same time.

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, WRKW566 said:

This is what I was getting at. So far, no one has addressed this. Steve got close with a definition of "station" but the thing I'm trying to address is the physical isolation issue. If you are in your Ham shack, you can't be talking to us lowly GMRS users. Reason I went here is about Amateur operators (forgive me) preaching to GMRS users from the comfort of their more educated, experienced position. You shouldn't care one iota about what GMRS users are doing, you can't be talking to them on the radio unless you get up and go outside.

I just got fed up with the Meshtastic nonsense. I think I have reached that point with the GMRS Internet experience. This has run it's coarse with the preaching and hostile posts here on mygmrs and Reddit as well. None of you will miss me and I don't even know who any of you are so there is a mutual no-loss benefit here.

No, the station has nothing to do with the building your station is in. You can have a GMRS station placed right next to your ham station on the same desk, in the same jeep, or on the same belt. You simply use the other radio. 
But only if you have the appropriate license. I have both and as long as I remember to grab the right microphone and use the right call sign I can have a two way conversation to either service. 
But I agree with you that hams should not be lecturing GMRS licensees and vice versa. 
I don’t agree with your premise that amateur radio operators are necessarily more educated and experienced. They are more tested however. 

[WRQC527]

2 hours ago, WRKW566 said:

if I read this rule correctly, you have to leave your station (if you are a Ham) to use a GMRS radio.

Barring emergency situations, licensed amateur radio operators are only allowed to communicate with other licensed amateur radio operators. Additionally, licensed amateur radio operators are only allowed to communicate with other amateur radio operators on the frequencies allowed by their license. Licensed GMRS operators are allowed to communicate with either other licensed GMRS operators or with unlicensed folks on FRS radios. Just because amateur radio and GMRS are both licensed services doesn't mean you can talk between them, but no rule exists that says you can't have (and use) both amateur radios and GMRS radios in the same room or on the same belt. Don't read anything else into the rules, and don't get caught up in what you think the definition of a station is.

[kc9pke]

My 3.45 GHz license doesn't authorize me to transmit in the 850 MHz cellular band

[WRUU653]

1 hour ago, WRKW566 said:

This is what I was getting at. So far, no one has addressed this. Steve got close with a definition of "station" but the thing I'm trying to address is the physical isolation issue. If you are in your Ham shack, you can't be talking to us lowly GMRS users. Reason I went here is about Amateur operators (forgive me) preaching to GMRS users from the comfort of their more educated, experienced position. You shouldn't care one iota about what GMRS users are doing, you can't be talking to them on the radio unless you get up and go outside.

I just got fed up with the Meshtastic nonsense. I think I have reached that point with the GMRS Internet experience. This has run it's coarse with the preaching and hostile posts here on mygmrs and Reddit as well. None of you will miss me and I don't even know who any of you are so there is a mutual no-loss benefit here.

Steve didn’t just get close, he got exact. The rules are no more or less than what they say. And it doesn’t say you have got to go outside your shack to talk on GMRS, it just doesn’t.
A station is anyone with a radio, not a building. Your handheld radio is a transmitter. As long as you are licensed for a service you are free to use it and that is regardless of whether you are licensed for another service. A person can have a license to drive their car and one for a motorcycle, they can use both. The FCC has definitions for everything and it’s those definitions that count. Don’t read more than what they say into the rules. 

[Willie]

6 hours ago, WRKW566 said:

My understanding of the meaning of "station" is, a facility consisting of radio transmitter and receiver equipment where an operator can access and use the equipment. ie, An "Amateur Station" is what every Ham has and if I read this rule correctly, you have to leave your station (if you are a Ham) to use a GMRS radio.

Here is the official definition of a HAM radio "station" from Part 97.

Quote

§ 97.3 Definitions.

(a) The definitions of terms used in part 97 are:

(1) Amateur operator. A person named in an amateur operator/primary license station grant on the ULS consolidated licensee database to be the control operator of an amateur station.

(2) Amateur radio services. The amateur service, the amateur-satellite service and the radio amateur civil emergency service.

(4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

(5) Amateur station. A station in an amateur radio service consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications.

The station consists of the equipment used - not it's location. Just like licenses are issued to an individual and not a location. People are licensed not the "station".

[amaff]

I must not have had enough coffee yet. Is today April 1st?

[Lscott]

10 hours ago, WRKW566 said:

Copy from:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2023-title47-vol5/xml/CFR-2023-title47-vol5-sec95-1733.xml

Look at item (9) Sorry about the formatting, this Forum uses double spacing and this copy would be a two foot scroll.

"(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station; "

My understanding of the meaning of "station" is, a facility consisting of radio transmitter and receiver equipment where an operator can access and use the equipment. ie, An "Amateur Station" is what every Ham has and if I read this rule correctly, you have to leave your station (if you are a Ham) to use a GMRS radio.

Copy from the link follows...

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses. (a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate: (1) Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law; (2) False or deceptive messages; (3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible); (4) Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain; (5) Advertisements or offers for the sale of goods or services; (6) Advertisements for a political candidate or political campaign (messages about the campaign business may be communicated); (7) International distress signals, such as the word “Mayday” (except when on a ship, aircraft or other vehicle in immediate danger to ask for help); (8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station; (9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station; (10) Continuous or uninterrupted transmissions, except for communications involving the immediate safety of life or property; and (11) Messages for public address systems. (12) The provision of § 95.333 apply, however, if the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary. (b) GMRS stations must not be used for one-way communications other than those listed in § 95.1731(b). Initial transmissions to establish two-way communications and data transmissions listed in § 95.1731(d) are not considered to be one-way communications for the purposes of this section.

 

I expect this post to draw considerable fire so as adults, lets keep it a little civil... this website does not have any provisions for preventing minors from getting an earful

This topic and post isn't as silly as it sounds.

Being near the Canadian border it's entirely possible to contact a "foreign" station on GMRS from the US side. So, this is of interest.

One can research the topic by going to the Canadian site, their FCC equivalent, and look over the rules.

https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/spectrum-management-telecommunications/en

The point about contacting an amateur station using a GMRS radio is very possible, and cross communication can be done without modified equipment on either end. And yes this topic does pop up on this forum occasionally.

Most Ham radios can be programmed to operate in split band mode, i.e. transmit on one frequency and receive on another. This would be similar to using a repeater shift. Some can actually do cross band operation, say between 2M and 70cm. 

The better GMRS radios have the ability to "monitor" a priority frequency while sitting on a valid GMRS channel. Others have a dual watch function, effectively dual receive.

The scheme works by programming the radio to transmit on a legal frequency for the licensed service while receiving on the other one. This way neither operator is transmitting out of band, nor using modified equipment. The rules are written such that this kind of operation is prohibited, i.e. cross service communications or what could be considered "one way" transmissions since no reply is expected on the licensed band, the transmission originated from, from the other station.

[WRXB215]

@Lscott good info. Thanks.

[WRYZ926]

28 minutes ago, Lscott said:

The scheme works by programming the radio to transmit on a legal frequency for the licensed service while receiving on the other one. This way neither operator is transmitting out of band, nor using modified equipment. The rules are written such that this kind of operation is prohibited, i.e. cross service communications or what could be considered "one way" transmissions since no reply is expected on the licensed band, the transmission originated from, from the other station.

The simplified explanation is that the FCC considers this as "broadcasting" which is not allowed on amateur or GMRS bands. Life and death emergencies are the exception. @Lscott thank you for your explanation.

I found out about cross band repeat from GMRS to 2m by total accident when messing with an unlocked radio. I realized what I did as soon as I keyed up the mic. I was on a GMRS simplex channel and heard myself on the 2m repeater. This was one instance where I just kekrchunked because I would have been in the wrong no matter which call sign I used. Again accidental mistake on my part. But to do that on purpose is against regulations.

Here is a scenario that I see quite often when people have both licenses. One grabs the wrong hand mic and gives the wrong call sign. This is an innocent mistake that is easy to make. We chuckle and then get on the band that the other person just transmitted on to let them know they grabbed the wrong mic. I think that everyone that has both licensed has done this a time or three.

 

[WRUU653]

5 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

Here is a scenario that I see quite often when people have both licenses. One grabs the wrong hand mic and gives the wrong call sign. This is an innocent mistake that is easy to make. We chuckle and then get on the band that the other person just transmitted on to let them know they grabbed the wrong mic. I think that everyone that has both licensed has done this a time or three

Been there, done that, razzed someone for it and been razzed as well

 

[Lscott]

7 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

I found out about cross band repeat from GMRS to 2m by total accident when messing with an unlocked radio. I realized what I did as soon as I keyed up the mic. I was on a GMRS simplex channel and heard myself on the 2m repeater. This was one instance where I just kekrchunked because I would have been in the wrong no matter which call sign I used. Again accidental mistake on my part. But to do that on purpose is against regulations.

I have a buddy who deliberately setup a cross band repeater, 2M/70cm, since he had the radios and a dual band antenna. Nice thing about it is you don't need an expensive set of tuned cavity filters, just a decent duplexer you can buy for $50-$75. Switching frequency is as simple as changing the channels on the radios, no filters to re-tune.

10 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

Here is a scenario that I see quite often when people have both licenses. One grabs the wrong hand mic and gives the wrong call sign. This is an innocent mistake that is easy to make. We chuckle and then get on the band that the other person just transmitted on to let them know they grabbed the wrong mic. I think that everyone that has both licensed has done this a time or three.

Yup. After a while the mics all start looking the same.

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Been there, done that, razzed someone for it and been razzed as well

 

It’s probably the biggest reason why I don’t program GMRS frequencies into most of my ham handhelds.  I had both programmed into my Alinco radio, (you know, just in case!) and I found myself transmitting my GMRS call sign on the 2 meter repeater with another ham standing beside me.  He didn’t give me a disapproving look or anything like that, I just knew I screwed up.

Split mode is often used to have ham radio conversations with hams from other countries who have different amateur bands.  Using split US hams can transmit on approved US frequencies while listening on the other country’s frequencies.  The ham in the other country listens on US frequencies but transmits on a frequency approved for their country. That’s legal.

[Lscott]

1 minute ago, SteveShannon said:

Split mode is often used to have ham radio conversations with hams from other countries who have different amateur bands.  Using split US hams can transmit on approved US frequencies while listening on the other country’s frequencies.  The ham in the other country listens on US frequencies but transmits on a frequency approved for their country. That’s legal.

I think that was very common on 40M. Now I think the band has more or less been "harmonized" to eliminate that mess.

[WRYZ926]

@Lscott I use cross band repeat all the time around the yard with my HT. It is easier to get into the repeater that way. Yes I can get into the 2m repeater with an HT but my signal is not as clear. I do make sure that I am on a 70cm frequency after my mistake. 

@SteveShannon I have learned to double check my radios before transmitting for that reason. And it is still pretty easy to grab the wrong hand mic when you have two radios at your desk. I haven't done that in the car since I leave the mic that I am using across my lap while the other one is in its hanger.

There are still a few instances where one needs to use split mode when talking to other countries. This is more for the HF bands though.

[WRXB215]

38 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

I think that everyone that has both licensed has done this a time or three.

LOL! Yep, monitoring both services at the same time can be interesting. So far, no one has chewed me out but a few have laughed about it.

[WRYZ926]

2 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

LOL! Yep, monitoring both services at the same time can be interesting. So far, no one has chewed me out but a few have laughed about it.

About the only time we would be stern with anyone is if they only are licensed for one service and use the other. We just laugh and give people trouble for doing it when they have both licenses.

[WRUI365]

Does that mean I have to stop talking with myself when I have a internal conversation in my mind?

[marcspaz]

Did WRKW566 get banned? All his posts are showing up as "guest" on my end.