ARRL contacted me & said GMRS licensees who sign list , will be removed. Citing that the letter to lawmakers is written as from Hams. So, I thought it would be the least confusing thing , would be to delete the post.

[WRKC935]

On 10/19/2025 at 8:08 PM, HHD1 said:

Oh My... What's it like living in fear?  You got this all played out in your head.  "Master gonna beat us if we talk back!"   You go ahead and lay down.  Let them walk all over you.  

This is just about simply putting an antenna on the top of a roof.  

I'm soooo glad I never signed a contract to let people control me like this.  The whole thing is just a sign of what people are willing to give up for material possessions. 

removed.

[HHD1]

2 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

You never studied abnormal physiology did you?

Far as your post not fearing Karen's.  I don't fear them either, but I also know better than to allow one ANY level of authority over me. And like you I REFUSE to live in an HOA community.  

 

But back to the Karen / Kevin / whoever mentality.  While every HOA is not run by narcissists, many are. And you can't look at it being an HOA thing.  The HOA part is their outlet for their narcissism, not the cause.  Part of that narcissism is having an authority complex.  They have a underlying need to be 'in charge' and have authority.  

When ANYTHING steps in and questions that authority,,,, even the authorities (cops, government) they don't take it well.  The ones that have allowed the narcissism to overpower their self control typically are the ones in the YouTube videos screaming from the back of a patrol car, or lying in the street after being tasered.  But even that rarely gets them to back down.  

So when someone has that mentality, and you question or worse yet MANDATE that they no longer have authority over ANYTHING. They loose grip of their sh1t.  And it's not just putting an antenna on a roof to them.  And it's not really putting an antenna up at all, or radio.  If the trash company told them that they owned the trash cans and they had no right to tell their customers when their trash cans could and could not be at the end of their driveways for pickup they would again loose their composure.  Or if the trash companies decided that they weren't going to pickup in a development until after 6PM and the cans had to be off the street at 6 PM again, they would be calling the trash company raising holy hell.  Why?  Because they are mentally unstable and DEMAND their authority be respected.  

So back to the antenna thing.  And remember, MENTALLY UNSTABLE people here.  If you have an antenna on your car.  If you have a call sign vanity plate.  If you own a portable radio and walk around the neighborhood with it.  YOU ARE GUILTY in their eyes of usurping their authority if this comes to pass.  You don't need an antenna tower, or an antenna on your roof.  A fishing pole sticking out your sun roof will do to get them on your case.  And it's due to their mental state.  They are LOOKING to have authority.  They are looking to have something to go after.  That's what motivates them to seek out positions where there is some level of perceived power, like being on the board of an HOA.  It gives them power.  This will strip some of that power.  And if you think that they will not be supported by other's in the neighborhood about Charlie down the street with his new antenna tower and how it's an eye sore and why is that now allowed and 'SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE' is gonna be more than enough to put Karen in full freak mode.

My argument is their specific brand of 'human nature' will mandate a response like I am trying to lay out here.  

But, yes, as someone else summarized what I said before.  Karen's don't like being questioned, they really don't like being told.  And while you may not have done either, it's not gonna matter to them.  Because you WILL respect their authority.

OH, and BTW, I don't fear them.  I subscribe to lead with violence and have a good attorney.  But being a realist, I also know to AVOID the confrontation to begin with.  It's the only way to really win it.  

And I don't see everyone being this way.  It's actually hard to find these people if you aren't really looking, or refuse to look in the places they frequent, like HOA board meetings, and Starbucks.

Thank you for defending yourself.  I have much respect for you. 

[WRKC935]

On 10/19/2025 at 11:52 PM, HHD1 said:

Thank you for defending yourself.  I have much respect for you. 

removed

 

[WRYS709]

I would like to see the Venn Diagram of those forum member who bash those who use GMRS as “Ham-Lite” vs those who want the ARRL to lobby for GMRS inclusion in the HOA law, too!

[Northcutt114]

8 hours ago, WRYS709 said:

I would like to see the Venn Diagram of those forum member who bash those who use GMRS as “Ham-Lite” vs those who want the ARRL to lobby for GMRS inclusion in the HOA law, too!

 

[Bogieboy01]

15 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

To simplify what @WRKC935 said; 

Don't pee in Karen's cereal. Karen will make your life miserable if you do.

Easy.... dont live in a karen community..... be like me....1.6 acres on the side of a mountain in eastern TN.... i could put up a 400ft tower and no one around would care....

[BoxCar]

4 minutes ago, Bogieboy01 said:

Easy.... dont live in a karen community..... be like me....1.6 acres on the side of a mountain in eastern TN.... i could put up a 400ft tower and no one around would care....

The FAA would.

[WRYZ926]

I have never lived in an HOA and I never intend to either. And I couldn't care less about all of the Karen's in the world. 

But as others have mentioned, it is sometimes better not to poke the bear.

Now if I must poke the bear, I am going to have fun while doing it. People in my small town of 1.100 decided to label me the crazy war vet biker as soon as I moved here. I will occasionally do stuff to keep that rumor going. It sure does keep the Karens and meth heads away from my property. 

Yes we have Karens even in small rural towns without HOA's. the biggest one here is the part time police officer that cites people for how their yards look. She isn't called the yard nazi for nothing.

[SteveShannon]

Well, I also don’t live in an HOA, but I do live in a neighborhood with covenants.  Many people do without even realizing it.  So, for those who live in covenants or HOAs, would you want the people who don’t live in an HOA and would never live in an HOA to support this proposal or not?  I would.

It makes no sense for people who would never live in an HOA to oppose this legislation. 

Free the antenna!

[Davichko5650]

7 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Well, I also don’t live in an HOA, but I do live in a neighborhood with covenants.  

Free the antenna!

CCR's aren't just Cheap Chinese Radios ya know! Although the HOA's usually throw an "&" after the second C.

[ChaosVortex]

On 10/19/2025 at 12:44 PM, WSEZ864 said:

Not so much "unpopular", but just not factual.

This is going to be a fun one I see. So, I am not being factual when I say ARRL has this is the kind of exclusivity of being for Amateur Radio and only Amateur radio? 

On 10/19/2025 at 12:44 PM, WSEZ864 said:

It's only a VERY "self-centered"  amateur radio outfit saying "Hey FCC, our membership (amateur radio operators) speaks.", nothing more, nothing less.

The ARRL (I am not a current member) simply wants to represent ham radio, as they always have. Their membership is amateur radio licensees and the fact is that they don't represent any other service

So I am "factually wrong" and state that "it is not what the ARRL is about" because of "my feelings", while seeming to act like I do not hold a Amateur License myself. One of these days I am sure someone will be able to tell me where this sense of self righteousness comes from. Granted I could go into how long I have held my ham ticket, what class it is, how long I have used a CB, and how long I have held a GMRS license but I am not interested in playing who has the longer vertical antenna.

See, what I cannot understand is why when it comes to HOA and this antenna petition, why act like Amateur radio and thus the radio operators for Ham Radio have such an exclusive right? Is Ham radio the one true hobby to rule them all? Or is it some ingrained sense of you get to do it, and no one else thus you are superior by default?

I guess I should add to your waxing poetically that the ARRL is now practically begging GMRS to sign the petition because not enough ham ticket owners have signed it. I suspect that it will not be long before the ARRL cries out to the CB Operators to sign it as well.

On 10/19/2025 at 12:44 PM, WSEZ864 said:

This is an excellent opportunity for you to start an organization that represents GMRS and FRS (if they're good enough)

I sense you are now going to claim it was purely sarcasm, however this statement speaks volumes, for you did all that writing to claim I was wrong then turn around and say this.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, ChaosVortex said:

This is going to be a fun one I see. So, I am not being factual when I say ARRL has this is the kind of exclusivity of being for Amateur Radio and only Amateur radio? 

I shouldn't respond to this, but I will anyway.

What sets Ham radio apart from the other services is the number of bands Hams can operate on and power levels used.

The technical requirements for effective antennas, particularly on HF, make them rather large on the lower bands. Not something you can easily hide. 

On GMRS one can use a moderate gain vertical, and in some restricted cases, they have been installed in attic spaces rather effectively. I have yet to see an 80 meter 3 element beam installed like that.

Then there is the power issue. On many of the bands Hams can use up to 1500 watts PEP, peak envelope power, a significant power level. Compared to the other services, where the power maximum is 50 watts for GMRS for example, it's just not in the same league. 

While I don't condemn people for complaining about Hams getting preferential treatment the nature of the service presents some unique conditions that just don't arise in many of the other services. Of course one could get a Ham license and experience the view from the other side of the fence so to speak.     

[ChaosVortex]

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

I shouldn't respond to this, but I will anyway.

This shall be interesting then, I am sure. Now before I reply to the rest of your comment, I have no idea when or even how this mentality of "I am better then you" started, especially when I look at the numbers that many are highly uncomfortable looking at.

When it comes to Amateur Radio the earliest data from the FCC I can find is from 2019, which is 384,145 - people hold a Technician license, 175,949 - people hold a General License, 147,369 - people hold a Advanced License which might at the surface might look impressive, however as of the current year of 2025 ham bands only see a 1% to 2% growth.

Meanwhile as of 2024 there were a total of 250,000 GMRS license holds that grows (or grew) 1,000 never per week, which again by going with the numbers will be eclipsing ham radio very soon.

Lastly and certainly not least, though there is no accurate way to track how many CB users are out there, however with citizen bands radio projected to become a $148 Million dollar market by 2029 I would have to say the amount of users are indeed growing.

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

What sets Ham radio apart from the other services is the number of bands Hams can operate on and power levels used.

This is a slightly misleading statement due to some information either willingly being withheld, or simply just a case of one not knowing. Though I will be getting more in depth this with this below, and because I find repeating one's self rather tiresome I will say that power levels and number of bands that can be used is dependent on what level of license a ham operator owns. 

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

The technical requirements for effective antennas, particularly on HF, make them rather large on the lower bands. Not something you can easily hide. 

This is under the assumption every single licensed ham operator enjoys or even wants to be on HF. There are many that do not want to do the standard "My call sign is, here is my location, here is your signal report, NEXT! Here is my call sign, here is my location, here is your signal report, NEXT! Here is my call sign, here is my location, here is your signal report", Many do not want to do contesting, Many do not want to do "they who have the largest log book wins", but I digress.

Many have had great success with hiding Yagi's, vertical antenna's, end fed half waves, etc in plain sight, however as the purpose of this thread is about ARRL and HOA allowing amateur radio op's to have antenna's up on the basis of emergency operation, I am perplexed at how making contact with someone in the Domian Republic will help locally, much like how contacting someone in Texas over a disaster in New York will help locally.
 

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

On GMRS one can use a moderate gain vertical, and in some restricted cases, they have been installed in attic spaces rather effectively. I have yet to see an 80 meter 3 element beam installed like that.

You have not been to reddit then. All right all dry humor set aside why must one use a 3 element bean on 80 meters? Is there some unofficial rule that states one must use this type of antenna? But that is just me not understanding the correlation between "look what I have and I can do, and you cannot" and getting a better signal.

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

Then there is the power issue. On many of the bands Hams can use up to 1500 watts PEP, peak envelope power, a significant power level. 

Though the 1.800Mhz to 1.900Mhz requires everyone to use no more then 5 watts, claiming all hams can use 1500 watts pep on certain bands is very misleading and as I stated before is tied to the class of your license.

Technicians can operate with a maximum of 200 watts pep on 80 meters, 40 meters, 15 meters, 10 meters
Generals and Advanced can operate with a maximum of 1,500 watts pep on 80 meters, 40 meters, 15 meters, 10 meters

However

All Amateurs are limited to 200 watts pep on 30 meters
All Amateurs are limited to 50 watts pep on 219 - 220mhz of 1.2 meters (though no one uses it)
Beacon stations are limited to 100 watts pep
Stations operating near military installations are limited to 50 watts pep

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

Compared to the other services, where the power maximum is 50 watts for GMRS for example, it's just not in the same league. 

I have yet to see HF frequencies set aside from GMRS, I have no idea what other services you are referring to in the 70 centimeter band. Though all Amateurs can use up to 1,500 Watts pep on 70 centimeters how many have actually used that for a base/mobile? I find it interesting my yeasu ham handhelds use 5 watts, while my retevis gmrs handheld's use 10 watts, so should I parade that gmrs handhelds are better then amateur radio?

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

While I don't condemn people for complaining about Hams getting preferential treatment the nature of the service presents some unique conditions that just don't arise in many of the other services.

One again this is misleading, and relies heavily on the fact you are comparing bands that constantly get propagation to bands that do not. However the question not addressed here is what makes amateur radio, and thus the amateur radio frequencies the one true band to rule them all? When it comes to an emergency situation should we not strive to have "all hands on deck" with as many different radio types in action as possible?

23 hours ago, Lscott said:

Of course one could get a Ham license and experience the view from the other side of the fence so to speak.     

I truly hope this comment was not aimed at myself. It would seem I should once again remind the thread that I have held a Amateur License, A CB operator for far longer then I care to admit, with a recently added GMRS license. I feel like stating how long I have had my Amateur licenses, what class they are, or how many years I have operated a CB or even a GMRS (including but not limited to how I used the frequencies in a paid professional position) as I do not prescribe to the vertical antenna measuring, or spraying the thread down with spurious emission's due to posturing. 

I will however say I have seen both sides of the fence, and I have yet to see why one side has a overly inflated sense of entitlement over the other services out there, much like many seem to think my opinion comes from someone not licensed in the Amateur Radio field purely because I do not walk the morally superior road.

[Lscott]

10 minutes ago, ChaosVortex said:

When it comes to Amateur Radio the earliest data from the FCC I can find is from 2019, which is 384,145 - people hold a Technician license, 175,949 - people hold a General License, 147,369 - people hold a Advanced License which might at the surface might look impressive, however as of the current year of 2025 ham bands only see a 1% to 2% growth.

The issue isn't the growth rates. The matter is about HOA's and the ability to use "effective" antennas. In this central issue Ham Radio is rather unique.

13 minutes ago, ChaosVortex said:

One again this is misleading, and relies heavily on the fact you are comparing bands that constantly get propagation to bands that do not.

That was the example I use. However it's not limited to just HF. There are other modes of operation that require some sophisticated antenna systems, including those used by Tech Class Hams. This is just one example.

I do agree that Hams shouldn't have a smug opinion of themselves. A few even have a bit of the case of "chip on the shoulder" between higher level classes verses the lower. That shouldn't exist. Personally I treat everyone the same. I have an Extra Class myself, but I don't operate HF and never bothered to change my call from my original Tech one. In fact most of my operations are on VHF and UHF, mobile at that. I don't even have an antenna on the house yet and Ive been licensed for over 20 years. 

27 minutes ago, ChaosVortex said:

I truly hope this comment was not aimed at myself.

Not specifically. At least that wasn't my intention. I was trying to make it more of a general series of comments.

[HHD1]

dang it guys...  Now I really wanna get an amateur license. 

[ChaosVortex]

3 hours ago, Lscott said:

The issue isn't the growth rates. The matter is about HOA's and the ability to use "effective" antennas. In this central issue Ham Radio is rather unique.

I had used growth rates for a sense of scale, as I stated previously; I do not understand what makes Amateur radio the one true hobby of the airways to rule them all. Much like I do not understand what constitutes as a "effective antenna".  From what I understand, then ARRL is doing the HOA petition based on the premise of "communications during a emergency situation", which my little mind tends to think means during those times the more people on different radio types the better.

 

[marcspaz]

I saw the title change. I thought they are the American Radio Relay League. Seems like a bad move on their end to exclude GMRS operators. Especially since there are way more active GMRS users than US based Amateur Radio operators. 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

I saw the title change. I thought they are the American Radio Relay League. Seems like a bad move on their end to exclude GMRS operators. Especially since there are way more active GMRS users than US based Amateur Radio operators. 

You missed some of the changes:

On 10/19/2025 at 4:42 PM, HHD1 said:

I posted Randy's video because in it, it is made quite clear that the ARRL has put a spot for both Amateur and GMRS license holders to sign the petition. And this only came out a couple days ago.

I tried it. Signed it.  I ain't fraid of no Karens.  Well, it helps that I don't have to worry about HOA's. 

Just thought it was quite contrary to the title of this thread. 

As for Karen's getting pissed off and coming down harder on other things,  How are they gonna know if you helped get this law to pass? What's with the fear of Karens?

 

[SteveShannon]

8 hours ago, marcspaz said:

Especially since there are way more active GMRS users than US based Amateur Radio operators

Really?  At last count there were 395k GMRS licenses and 741k amateur licenses in the U.S.  I have no way to know how many of either are “active”, but at least here in Montana I see almost no GMRS activities and some amateur activity. I participate in three different ham radio nets, one sort of PNW 40 meter three days a week, one statewide traffic 80 meter seven days a week, and one 2 meter weekly net that captures users from as far away as 80 miles. 
GMRS appears to be growing faster in many areas, but at least here the claim that there are way more active GMRS users is not true. 

[WSEZ864]

On 10/21/2025 at 7:45 AM, ChaosVortex said:

This is going to be a fun one I see. So, I am not being factual when I say ARRL has this is the kind of exclusivity of being for Amateur Radio and only Amateur radio?

If you read what I wrote, you will see I had bolded a portion of your statement and addressed THAT as being non-factual. The other text left in your statement I quoted was left in for context.

I stand by that: It is not factual to say the ARRL's stance is based upon "hey, you are not good enough to help as you do not have the same ticket we do". That is a feeling, a perception, not official policy.

On 10/21/2025 at 7:45 AM, ChaosVortex said:

So I am "factually wrong" and state that "it is not what the ARRL is about" because of "my feelings", while seeming to act like I do not hold a Amateur License myself. One of these days I am sure someone will be able to tell me where this sense of self righteousness comes from. Granted I could go into how long I have held my ham ticket, what class it is, how long I have used a CB, and how long I have held a GMRS license but I am not interested in playing who has the longer vertical antenna.

None of that is relevant. If you do hold a ham ticket, you probably know that the ARRL is about ham radio. It has always been about ham radio. It's about ham radio on this issue too. Now you are disturbed because they are STILL all about ham radio.

Being about ham radio, they asked ham radio operators to sign a petition they will state is from their represented group. Other radio services are irrelevant to their mission statement (to serve their members, which are and always have been amateur radio operators). Very simple, and no sense of self righteousness or feeling of GMRS not being good enough has any bearing on this. See the "VW club vs Lamborghini discussion" example in my post you quoted.

On 10/21/2025 at 7:45 AM, ChaosVortex said:

See, what I cannot understand is why when it comes to HOA and this antenna petition, why act like Amateur radio and thus the radio operators for Ham Radio have such an exclusive right? Is Ham radio the one true hobby to rule them all? Or is it some ingrained sense of you get to do it, and no one else thus you are superior by default?

Feelings again. Placing ham radio antennas is not an exclusive right, other services stand to benefit by relaxed HOA antenna restrictions. It should be easy to understand that the ARRL is a dedicated ham radio outfit. Again, they don't represent any other service, just a ham radio outfit representing hams, why would rejecting other services from a petition representing their membership be surprising. If only a GMRS organization also presented a petition demanding the same rights, it could add 50% more operators to the push.

On 10/21/2025 at 7:45 AM, ChaosVortex said:

I guess I should add to your waxing poetically that the ARRL is now practically begging GMRS to sign the petition because not enough ham ticket owners have signed it. I suspect that it will not be long before the ARRL cries out to the CB Operators to sign it as well.

If pointing out that a ham radio organization is dedicated to ham radio and it is not about demeaning anyone else is "waxing poetically", I guess I'm guilty, but not sorry.

I was/am not aware of any change in stance by the ARRL. I am not an ARRL member and do not stay on top of all of their activities. I joined when I first got my amateur license because it was the thing to do. I held a membership for a few years, but stopped for several reasons, mainly that the magazine had evolved to be an ad catalogue and that they made several unilateral decisions while claiming to represent their membership. Since they never polled their membership on those issues, I could see I was not being represented. To pay membership in an ad campaign to an organization that did not represent my views didn't make sense.

On 10/21/2025 at 7:45 AM, ChaosVortex said:

I sense you are now going to claim it was purely sarcasm, however this statement speaks volumes, for you did all that writing to claim I was wrong then turn around and say this.

No, not sarcastic at all. A serious suggestion on a positive, constructive way to solve the problem of GMRS licensees not having representation, assuming you ever wanted a solution.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said the statement you made was not based in fact. I tried to clear up what was not factual above, although my post you quoted seemed very clear. The ARRL did not reject GMRS licensees because they were "not good enough" as you had alleged. GMRS users, CB users, business radio, marine radio, GMDSS, GROL are ALL outside the scope of an amateur radio organization and the ARRL fails to represent ALL of them in that context, regardless of technical levels required of each service.

[amaff]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

GMRS appears to be growing faster in many areas, but at least here the claim that there are way more active GMRS users is not true. 

I would be curious to see numbers on how many GMRS users also have amateur licenses vs those that do. I'd venture that *most* people who get into GMRS are just trying to fill a comms need and stay legal, vs using radio as a hobby (ie: there probably isn't likely to be nearly as much chatter for the sake of chatter in most places)

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, amaff said:

I would be curious to see numbers on how many GMRS users also have amateur licenses vs those that do. I'd venture that *most* people who get into GMRS are just trying to fill a comms need and stay legal, vs using radio as a hobby (ie: there probably isn't likely to be nearly as much chatter for the sake of chatter in most places)

Once the database is back up that would be an interesting exercise. I’m one of those with both licenses.  

[amaff]

2 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Once the database is back up that would be an interesting exercise. I’m one of those with both licenses.  

Yup. I figure there's probably more cross over here than there is out in 'the real world,' but I have no real idea if that's remotely accurate, just gut feel.

[Lscott]

19 minutes ago, amaff said:

(ie: there probably isn't likely to be nearly as much chatter for the sake of chatter in most places)

From the monitoring I've done frequent chatter seems to be the norm on the several local repeaters in my area. If it wasn't for the call signs, and or equipment descriptions, you wouldn't know the difference between Ham and GMRS repeater traffic.

[amaff]

4 minutes ago, Lscott said:

From the monitoring I've done frequent chatter seems to be the norm on the several local repeaters in my area. If it wasn't for the call signs, and or equipment descriptions, you wouldn't know the difference between Ham and GMRS repeater traffic.

That was the way around SLC as well a year or so ago. For some reason, it seems to have died off a *lot* in the last few months. Basically never hear anything when in the truck with the radio on scan (except on linked Ham repeaters I sometimes listen in on)

Like I said, "most places". I'm sure there are places that are very active. And that those places are not the norm.