What I Wish I Knew When I First Started With GMRS

[chuckn]

Well, I was wrong. The frequencys did generate activity from local EMS and fire department. Pretty cool litte radio. 

[jonnylocks]

Richard made a great recommendation above with the Sat phone.  That is really the best bet for coms.  I didn't think of it because it is very expensive and requires you to have an account.  I default to HF radio because that's what I do, its cheap and doesn't require paying for an ongoing service. But, if you have the funds... Sat coms is likely the best solution.

 

 

The Amateur Radio community considers anything 150 watts and down to be low power.  Saying you have or should use a low power radio can be misleading due to that.  QRP is Ham lingo that is typically used to abbreviate the point that you are using low power to communicate, but typically 5 watts or less.

 

An affordable example of a radio would be a XIEGU G1M HF radio.  Also, kits are available from companies like QRP Labs.

 

You can make your own end-fed wire antenna for a couple of dollars.  Or a dipole.  There are a ton of video tutorials on YouTube that show you how.

 

For a battery... a small 12.5v lithium ion or gel cell should be fine.  they are between 50%-60% lighter than lead acid batteries.  The lighter the better.

 

This is really helpful for us new types. Thanks! I'm new to GMRS and ham (just got my tech license today via remote testing). I got into radios for various emergency situations and I like this option you outline here.

 

I'm thinking of getting something at QRP Labs as you recommend, any specific suggestions? Any suggestions for a frame?

 

Just wondering why you suggest 40 meters and not 20, 15 or 80. I realize as a tech or GMRS we would only be able to use those in emergency situations. Is 40 a sweet spot between Tx distance and reception?

 

Thanks again!

[marcspaz]

This is really helpful for us new types. Thanks! I'm new to GMRS and ham (just got my tech license today via remote testing). I got into radios for various emergency situations and I like this option you outline here.

 

I'm thinking of getting something at QRP Labs as you recommend, any specific suggestions? Any suggestions for a frame?

 

Just wondering why you suggest 40 meters and not 20, 15 or 80. I realize as a tech or GMRS we would only be able to use those in emergency situations. Is 40 a sweet spot between Tx distance and reception?

 

Thanks again!

 

I don't have any specific recommendations.  I don't operate QRP, though some of my friends and fellow club members do.  I have been out in the mountains with them while operating and it it amazing to see how well they get their stuff to work.  I would recommend finding a group or forum the specializes in QRP.  That would be a much better resource of information.

 

I suggested 40 meter because most people can/will only have one device.  40 meter is global comms day or night, while compared to other bands, such as 20 that works best during the day and possibly not at all at night... or 80m which works the best at night, but possibly not at all during the day.  You can get much better efficiency and a smaller antenna with 20m, but you risk not having night time comms.

[berkinet]

two caveats before you go and order QRP gear...

1. As you note, you are not allowed to transmit.

2. Actually getting a contact is not that easy and may require a LOT of time and effort. It is a little like fishing, some people are cut out for it, others not so much.

[Lscott]

For a battery... a small 12.5v lithium ion or gel cell should be fine.  they are between 50%-60% lighter than lead acid batteries.  The lighter the better.

I would second that suggestion, Lithium battery. Specifically I would recommend a LiFePO4, LFP, battery. They have the safest chemistry out of the common Lithium battery types, light and reasonably high energy density. One other advantage to LFP batteries is the terminal voltage. At full charge they are around 13.3 or so VDC, a very good match to most mobile equipment that expects 13.8 VDC. The battery has a very flat voltage verses discharge curve so when the terminal voltage drops to 12.8 VDC the battery is almost completely discharged, like around 80 to 90 percent of the rated capacity is used. Don't try this with a lead acid battery.

 

I've also found they have a very low self discharge rate. You can charge them up and let them sit for months and the terminal voltage hardly drops. For an Ecom application this would be an advantage.

 

I've wreck enough Gel-Cell lead-acid batteries over the years I won't buy them anymore if the equipment can use the LFP type. Lead acid batteries don't like sitting around unless they have a trickle charger attached and don't let them sit around at less than full change, they will sulfate the plates. Neither of these conditions hurt LFP batteries. As a matter of fact one recommendation for long term storage of LFP batteries is to discharge them to around 50-80 percent of capacity, they can stay that way for months to a year or more this way without damage.

 

While LFP batteries are much more expensive than the common lead acid type once you ruin a few lead acid batteries you'll get sick of replacing them and the cost adds up.

 

I've had good luck with the following company for LFP batteries.

 

https://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries

 

If you want to use a solar panel to recharge the battery a small MPPT controller designed specifically for LFP batteries is required. I have several from this company.

 

https://sunforgellc.com/genasun/

 

I have a couple of the GV5 charge controllers, a good match for a 50 watt solar panel.

 

For solar panels I got some from this company.

 

https://www.renogy.com/products/solar-panels/

 

I have a couple of their 50 watt mono and 1 of their 30 watt mono panels. The build quality is good and they do guarantee them.

 

On solar panels from my experience don't expect to get more than around 70 to 75 percent of the panel rating, which is derived under lab conditions, which you won't get in the field.

[Dshel61]

I think the biggest problem is, there are too many opinions AND most new users don't even know "what" they want to do. For the most part, many new radio users don't know what tech is the correct tech for any intended purpose. Until they get in and find out something they like and figure out how it will suit their needs, we wouldn't even know what advice to give.

 

I have tried to help, though. I actually have a published article I wrote about the pros and cons of each common service, what they could potentially used for, and just a really brief overview of the science behind it. It was focused around off-road communications, but applies to everything. I can always share it here, but I haven't due to potential bickering.

 

Marcspaz How do I get a copy of your article? I think it would help me a lot.

 

Dean

WRFT350

Atlanta GA

[marcspaz]

Marcspaz How do I get a copy of your article? I think it would help me a lot.

 

Dean

WRFT350

Atlanta GA

I'll PM a link to you.

[kidphc]

Been told by multiple hams QRP is not for the new guy. They warned it can get frustrating and discouraging fast because of the lower power levels and you are still playing the game of physics. Although as a newer ham I see the appeal. The radios are often sub 500 new. Where even a good used HF rig can wack you for 800. So going to take practice.

 

The guys that are good at it make it look easy. It looks like they throw wire and the ground and wala, 50 contacts half way across the country. You ever notice they don't pull out charts for band plans and such (I know I do), They seemingly pop on a channel and start calling CQ. With all the videos I have watched only one bother to even check to see if the frequency was clear before calling CQ. Miracle of editing I hope. A lot of this hobby, you are kinda expected to know some basic things. But like many things practice,and practice more.

[axorlov]

If you want to actually listen what's going on yourself, without yet owning a rig or antenna, you can use resources like websdr.org. Bandplans are certainly followed. Youtube videos are only good to some extent.

[yakovich]

We GMRS people are putting the onus on outsiders to sift through thousands of painfully esoteric webpages with a winnowing fork, separating useful info from useless, poorly written, or incomplete info..

 

I wish a GMRS expert—presumably a manufacturer—would just come out and say exactly what a total newbie needs at each stage of their involvement or level of need. Two-way radio manufacturers should stop wasting time trying to sell, and start marketing and branding, which means educating the public about the 5 W's (Who, What, Where, When, Why [+how, +how much]) without trying to sell to them.

 

Most new users don't know what they need because they don't know what's possible.

 

Seems to me that problems like these led to the development of organizations like ARRL that popped up back in the day for the Amateur Radio Service. The question of the day is if that’s necessary for GMRS. I personally think that there would be some merit to an organization that focused on GMRS voice and very limited data communication methods and teach basic radio operation. Amateur Radio is pretty beyond basic when you think about it. A basic service like GMRS is pretty nice, and could be even better with a little more organization.

 

It’s worth noting that when the FCC makes rule changes they take organizational input very seriously. MYGMRS.com input was mentioned as justification for rule changes (and for keeping certain things) In the FCC’s last round of rule making for the GMRS Service, right up there with Garmin.

 

Professional and hobby organizations serve a huge purpose and there are probably quite a few users of the service who would be interested in such a thing, and there are probably just as many who don’t give a dang either - but that’s kind of the beauty of it, you don’t have to be an electrical genius to just jump in feet first. GMRS meets many different needs. To those who find it a hobby there are just as many who find it a tool on their farm or a way to call home from the parking lot.

[H8SPVMT]

Well, first, the old FCC GMRS regulation was Part95-A, that is now Part95-E. But radios approved for Part95-A are grandfathered for Part95-E. Since the radio is also Part-15 approved, it could be used, probably requiring internal re-programming, on other services.

 

Next, the repeater channels. That just means the radio will transmit on a frequency exactly 5mHz higher than the frequency it listens on. Since most repeaters, especially in GMRS, use some type of access control system, audio tone (not audible to you) or digital  code you would have to also program or set the right tone or code for the repeater you wanted to access.  And, no, there is no such thing as automatically connecting to a repeater. I guess there could be, but I have never actually seen a radio that does that. To make that work, the radio would have to try all 8 repeater input channels, and try all possible access tones/codes and be able to detect if a signal was heard coming back. (See below).

 

Which brings us to your last question... how do you (or a smart radio) know you have "connected" with the repeater. One way is to use another radio to listen. But, that is likely to fail, especially if you are using a cheap toy radio, since its receiver will be overloaded by your transmitter.  The other, more common, method is to listen for a short transmission of client carrier. This is called the hang-time and is set by the repeater owner. So, after the incoming transmission ends, the repeater will continue to transmit for a short period, maybe a second or so.  But, if the repeater has no hang timer, then to only way to tell you got in is to use a second radio.

As a newbie and looking for direction on "how to(s)" this is one subject amoungst many I am lost in and no repeaters nearby for me to interact with anyway.

As I understand it, it appears I need another radio besides my MXT400 to ensure I have landed on a repeater.  But I was reading and wondering, won't the radio screen show a busy signal on the screen once the repeater responds with that short transmission?

[H8SPVMT]

I too am somewhat feeling the way of the author when it comes to educating folks interested in this field.  Jeep Jamboree USA will reqiure FRS radios next year instead of the CB's we have used forever.  I am a die-hard for obvious reasons like, Why change if it isn't broke?  But I too am trying to embrace this new technology so I'll be knowledgeable when the change takes place.

 

Getting my license and buying what I thought was the correct rig for me, I found I had only the manufactures literature to guide me.  And I fell for the POWER of 40 watts and a 6db gain antenna before getting here, on site.  I figured, well we'll be in the mountains and winding thru the hollows so more power is better.  

 

Maybe getting more like-minded (Jeepers) together and utilized the collective minds and experience to better serve our community.  Just Like learning here.  But there is an empty spot in world of education when it comes to FRS & GMRS.  Just got it set up in the Jeep today.  So far I have talked to one child on the radio that responded to a radio check.

[marcspaz]

 

Don't feel too disenfranchised because of the MXT400. While the antenna is kind of cheap... the radio itself is (in my humble opinion) the best new, over the counter, out of the box, purpose built radio on the market right now.

 

There are some shortcomings that can be overcome by using Part 90 radios, but frankly, I dont think that is a good start if you are getting into radio with no previous experience in commercial or Amateur Radio. Get your feet wet, enjoythe hobby and learn.

[berkinet]

...There are some shortcomings that can be overcome by using Part 90 radios, ...

 

Most of the issues people have with the MXT 400 can be resolved by use of the programming software.   Here is a link to one discussion on that topic. There are others.

[marcspaz]

Most of the issues people have with the MXT 400 can be resolved by use of the programming software.   Here is a link to one discussion on that topic. There are others.

 

 

I have seen that thread and some like it.  I have two issues.  One is, I don't know anyone who has actually done this... so I am hesitant to mention it. 

 

Also, the MXT400 is only certified for narrow band and is not intended to be user configured for wideband.  Once you modify the the radio, it is no longer a certified radio, thus not legal.  If you are going to do that, you may as well just go buy a ham radio or commercial radio and use it.  There are way better radios for the same price or less.

[berkinet]

I have seen that thread and some like it. I have two issues. One is, I don't know anyone who has actually done this... so I am hesitant to mention it.

 

Also, the MXT400 is only certified for narrow band and is not intended to be user configured for wideband.

There was a post here recently from someone who had changed the settings on his radio. The second point was really only for someone who already owned the MXT400 and wanted to address the limitations (and didn't care about certification). BTW, one of the limitations is PL tones, and changing that wouldn't affect certification.

 

But, you are 100% correct, If someone is thinking about buying the radio and then changing the bandwidth, they might as well buy that exact same radio from Luiton (LT-590), Retevis (RT-900D), TYT (TH900d), or some other vendor at 1/2 the price, and no limitations.

[jstgermain]

I know this is old, but it really hit home. I agree with the OP sentiment on it being tough to get started. I just bought a radio for my truck to turn it into a mobile repeater, and the giga parts doesn’t even have really much in the way of recommended items to get for that radio. I originally had a midland in a different vehicle, and it came with everything I needed for a mounting solution, and I could get other things if I wanted. My new icom came with no mount, and had very little in the way of showing other things I would need in order to get going. I needed a separate antenna base, antenna, mount, radio face mount, a way to mount those mounts etc. Very frustrating. 

[Hoppyjr]

I know this is old, but it really hit home. I agree with the OP sentiment on it being tough to get started. I just bought a radio for my truck to turn it into a mobile repeater, and the giga parts doesn’t even have really much in the way of recommended items to get for that radio. I originally had a midland in a different vehicle, and it came with everything I needed for a mounting solution, and I could get other things if I wanted. My new icom came with no mount, and had very little in the way of showing other things I would need in order to get going. I needed a separate antenna base, antenna, mount, radio face mount, a way to mount those mounts etc. Very frustrating. 

This is why it’s important to do research before purchase.

Many Midland radios are sold as bundles, including everything needed to get up and running. That said, I don’t believe Midland sells a “mobile repeater” but they have many mobile radios.

While capable of being used “off label” for GMRS, the Icom isn’t a GMRS radio and isn’t really targeted for the casual GMRS user. Icom radios are intended for the HAM and those folks generally know all the needed pieces of the puzzle.

[Socalgmrs]

This is really amusing. I’ve never once had a problem with any of gmrs.  Some times I wish we had small hand held devices that had the world at our finger tips.   I can find ANYTNING in a matter of seconds from my phone.  I can even find a Motorola repeater with everything ready to plug into a battery or a wall outlet with high end professional radios for $400 on line then order some cable and an antenna and in less then 15min I’ve got a professional 50w mobile repeater set up ordered for less then $600 total.  But then again I don’t need a repeater. Most people don’t.  

[LeoG]

5 hours ago, Hoppyjr said:

This is why it’s important to do research before purchase.

Many Midland radios are sold as bundles, including everything needed to get up and running. That said, I don’t believe Midland sells a “mobile repeater” but they have many mobile radios.

While capable of being used “off label” for GMRS, the Icom isn’t a GMRS radio and isn’t really targeted for the casual GMRS user. Icom radios are intended for the HAM and those folks generally know all the needed pieces of the puzzle.

  Similar to the Retevis RT97s

https://midlandusa.com/collections/mxr10-midland-repeater/products/midland-mxr10-repeater

[Hoppyjr]

Edit: Never mind. It wasn’t about linked repeaters so it wouldn’t be appropriate.