A little bit Disappointment

[WROV332]

Let me start saying I am not trying to be negative, I just want to share my disappointment. I live in North Austin, TX. I bought two Wouxun 5W GMRS radios. I know that the frequency range GMRS uses has trouble penetrating into buildings and such. My primary reason for buying the radios were to use them on road trips and when we go hiking on various trails where cell coverage is spotty. My second reason was to be able to use it in the neighbourhood to talk to my wife back home when I am out with the kids. Here is why I am disappointed performing some tests:

1. Using 5W GMRS handheld within a populated area is pretty much useless. I live in a suburban area and I cannot even get half a mile range between two handhelds. Yes, I am using high power channels.

2. TX is really lacking GMRS repeaters. I found about Texas GMRS Network group, and unfortunately came to the realization that the repeater that I may be able to get a hold of has been offline for a long time : ( Looking at the texasgmrs.net website, I see that more than half of the repeaters listed are offline. The other repeater is 22 miles away which I have no chance of hitting. Basically my hope of using the radios around my house is gone without any repeaters. I would be interested in building one however my HOA would certainly not allow me to put a big antenna on my roof.

I came to the conclusion that for those who want to get into the GMRS is that unless you spend on building your own repeater, or at least get a 50W base station in your house with a big antenna on your roof, forget about using your handhelds in a populated area. I think GMRS really shines when using on trails and road trips, but also if you are lucky enough to live in an area with a lot of repeaters.

Anyways, just wanted to get this out there. Love to hear if I am missing anything.

[Citizen]

Sorry you're having trouble, but something else must be wrong, or your radios are not configured correctly.

I can get about 2+ miles in a populated area (suburb of Houston) using 5w HTs.  I found your location of Cedar Park by using your call sign.  Populated yes, but no real big buildings like downtown Austin.  No reason why you shouldn't be able to get at least a half mile or so.  Have you tried having someone  drive (or even walk) just down the street until signal is lost?

There is a repeater in nearby Round Rock (Round Rock 725).  This is one you'll need to get permission to use, because it requires separate TX/RX tones (per the description), but go ahead an try it.  Once you get permission, drive over to RR and try to hit it.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Don't give up yet.  GMRS is fun.

...

[JLeikhim]

These cheap radios have receivers that lack effective filtering of off channel and out of band signals. So if you are in an urban area, with powerful broadcast and communications transmitters, the receiver may get desensitized or outright interfered with by strong signals and distortion.

Imagine going to a loud concert where you cannot hear the person next to you. Or being out in bright sunlight where you can't see ahead. In this case put on some blue blockers or sunglasses and now you can see through the filtering.

Toss those cheap radios and look for some good used commercial radios like Kenwood or Motorola.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[WROV332]

44 minutes ago, Citizen said:

Sorry you're having trouble, but something else must be wrong, or your radios are not configured correctly.

I can get about 2+ miles in a populated area (suburb of Houston) using 5w HTs.  I found your location of Cedar Park by using your call sign.  Populated yes, but no real big buildings like downtown Austin.  No reason why you shouldn't be able to get at least a half mile or so.  Have you tried having someone  drive (or even walk) just down the street until signal is lost?

There is a repeater in nearby Round Rock (Round Rock 725).  This is one you'll need to get permission to use, because it requires separate TX/RX tones (per the description), but go ahead an try it.  Once you get permission, drive over to RR and tryi to hit it.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Don't give up yet.  GMRS is fun.

...

Thanks for the response. Yes I did the walk test and I started to loose signal in before half a mile or so in Cedar Park. I registered to the texas gmrs site and still waiting for an approval. However, when I look at the texasGMRS site and the map, RoundRock 650 is red which I assumed to be offline. It also does not show up on myGMRS map. Even though I cannot login to the texasgmrs site yet, I can see the repeater information on their website without logging in. See attached. I configured the radio (kg-935g) based on the tones listed there and no cigar. I will attemp to drive closer to it so if I can get any signal back.

As far as the RR725 goes, I emailed the owner for permission. However that is just a handheld 5W repeater so I am not sure if that will give me much range at all.

The other alternative is FLINTROCK HILL repeater on the west side of Austin. I have been trying from my house without a luck so far. I think that one is just too far.

[Citizen]

31 minutes ago, WROV332 said:

[snip]

RoundRock 725 is red which I assumed to be offline. It also does not show up on myGMRS map.

 

I found Round Rock 725 (Channel 22) does show up on myGMRS.com (not the same as TexasGMRS.net).  I believe it is red because it is NOT linked via VOIP.  Try THIS link.  Note; the output tone is 74.4, NOT 411.  You'll have to contact the owner for the input tone when you seek permission.

If you do not get a response, then you might assume the repeater is off line, and the owner failed to mark it so on the various web sites.

 

I don't see Flinkrock on myGMRS.com.  Correction; found it.

Let us know how you fare.

...

[WROV332]

Sorry I made some typos on my reply to your post and possibly confused you : ) There are three repeaters on my area.

ROUND ROCK 725 (https://mygmrs.com/repeater/4720) - This is a 5W handheld record-relay type of repeater as described here (https://www.offgrid.technology/rr725-repeater/). I asked permission to get the input tone but havn't received yet. I will try it out when I get the input tone however given it is 5W handheld used as a repeater, I don't have my hopes high.

FILNTROCK HILL (https://mygmrs.com/repeater/5131) - This one is about 23 miles from my location and I am still yet to get a signal. I think it is just too far.

ROUND ROCK 650 (https://www.texasgmrs.net/repeaters/round-rock-650/) - This one is not listed in mygmrs unless you turn on "Show Outdated Listings" option on the map view. On texasgmrs site, its symbol is red. I am assuming it is offline because I had no luck connecting to it either.

[Citizen]

Ok, gotcha.  Thanks for the update. 

Not sure what else to suggest at this point, looks like you've done your research.  At least you'll get good use when hiking or in a road caravan.

Regards,

...

[DownEastNC]

6 hours ago, JLeikhim said:

Toss those cheap radios and look for some good used commercial radios like Kenwood or Motorola.
 

I was on the Motorola site and couldn't find a 5 watt GMRS HT. Do you know of a model or link to one?

[JLeikhim]

I was on the Motorola site and couldn't find a 5 watt GMRS HT. Do you know of a model or link to one?

You won't find Motorola Solutions (MSI) making or selling GMRS radios. They have licensed the production of cheap retail FRS and GMRS radios to an offshore manufacturer such as Giant. Those are crappy radios .

You will need to buy a surplus public safety or business grade radio. I use Motorola Systems Sabers which happen to have the Part 95 certification. I easily tested 2 miles simplex, on foot with another radio inside my house.

There are various Kenwood radios with Part 95 certification.

Public safety Radios with Part 90 certification are generally equivalent in specs required by Part 95.

Surplus radios are cheap and plentiful. But you will need software and a cable to program the channels.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[PACNWComms]

Have used Motorola Astro Saber Model 3's for GMRS in the past as well. Still have one of them, but gave several others away to others that are still using them, with new batteries and chargers due to the changing battery chemistry of course. They work well for this, but even with a newer and smaller battery, they are a big though thin radio. I do get comments on it the most as many old school first responders recognize them instantly.

[Lscott]

3 hours ago, JLeikhim said:

You won't find Motorola Solutions (MSI) making or selling GMRS radios. They have licensed the production of cheap retail FRS and GMRS radios to an offshore manufacturer such as Giant. Those are crappy radios .

You will need to buy a surplus public safety or business grade radio. I use Motorola Systems Sabers which happen to have the Part 95 certification. I easily tested 2 miles simplex, on foot with another radio inside my house.

There are various Kenwood radios with Part 95 certification.

Public safety Radios with Part 90 certification are generally equivalent in specs required by Part 95.

Surplus radios are cheap and plentiful. But you will need software and a cable to program the channels.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

I’m primarily a Kenwood guy, nothing wrong with Motorola- Icom etc., just my personal preference. A lot of my older Kenwood radios are both Part 90 and 95A certified. Part 95A was the GMRS section before the FCC revised the rules a few years ago. Any radio with the older Part 95A certification are still legal to use on GMRS as far as I know.

A buddy at work was using a UV-5R for GMRS. I recommended a Kenwood TK-3170, which has Part 95A certification. He got a good deal on a used one with antenna, battery pack, charger base and speaker microphone on eBay. Once he started using it he quit using the UV-5R. He liked how much better the Kenwood radio performed.

You want the “Type 1” radio.

https://pdfs.kenwoodproducts.com/9/TK-2170&3170Brochure.pdf

[WRFP399]

Another option is Vertex. Used VX-231 radios can be found for 30-40 dollars on eBay and they have excellent performance for GMRS use. The programming software can be found pretty easy and the USB cables on eBay work.

 

If you decide to go this route I can help you select the right radio, cable and software. PM me if needed.

[mbrun]

Let me start saying I am not trying to be negative, I just want to share my disappointment. I live in North Austin, TX. I bought two Wouxun 5W GMRS radios. I know that the frequency range GMRS uses has trouble penetrating into buildings and such. My primary reason for buying the radios were to use them on road trips and when we go hiking on various trails where cell coverage is spotty. My second reason was to be able to use it in the neighbourhood to talk to my wife back home when I am out with the kids. Here is why I am disappointed performing some tests:
1. Using 5W GMRS handheld within a populated area is pretty much useless. I live in a suburban area and I cannot even get half a mile range between two handhelds. Yes, I am using high power channels.
2. TX is really lacking GMRS repeaters. I found about Texas GMRS Network group, and unfortunately came to the realization that the repeater that I may be able to get a hold of has been offline for a long time : ( Looking at the texasgmrs.net website, I see that more than half of the repeaters listed are offline. The other repeater is 22 miles away which I have no chance of hitting. Basically my hope of using the radios around my house is gone without any repeaters. I would be interested in building one however my HOA would certainly not allow me to put a big antenna on my roof.
I came to the conclusion that for those who want to get into the GMRS is that unless you spend on building your own repeater, or at least get a 50W base station in your house with a big antenna on your roof, forget about using your handhelds in a populated area. I think GMRS really shines when using on trails and road trips, but also if you are lucky enough to live in an area with a lot of repeaters.
Anyways, just wanted to get this out there. Love to hear if I am missing anything.

Welcome to myGMRS.

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. Been there, done that. The misleading advertising of cheap radio brands is IMHO mostly to blame for the public’s unrealistic expectations of simplex radio range. In the real-world, range is a very tiny fraction of what the manufacturers assert. In my 20 years of experience with UHF, 1/2 mile HT-HT simplex range outdoors has become my only realistic expectation of coverage. Why? Because I have not yet experience less than that outdoors. It has always been that distance or more. I always hope for more depending local conditions.

I live about 20 miles SE of Cincinnati in an area where the RF noise floor is very low. When I tested range (reported on this forum) between Wouxun (KG-805G) radios and Part 90 radios (motorola and vertex ) there was no notable difference in usable range. .6 miles is all I could achieve reliably in my around-home test. Beyond that it was rapidly downhill, with hit and mis communications out to about 1-1/2 miles. Radios ranged in MSRP price from $30 each to $750. Terrain was mostly flat to slightly rolling, 60% trees, houses every 1-5 acres and some small fields.

Those same 805G radios have achieved HT-HT simplex coverage out to 2-1/2 +/- miles under more open outdoor terrain (fewer obstacles) conditions. Also, when connected to the base antenna above my home, the 805G has on a number of occasions communicated successfully through a repeater 50 miles to my north and whose antenna is many 100s of feet higher in elevation than mine. They have achieved 34 miles through select repeaters while using a mobile antenna on my vehicle, but can’t open a low-profile home-owner repeater beyond 1 mile.

So, my first takeaway from all this is that the more the obstacles between the radio antennas the less the usable distance. The higher the antenna, the fewer the obstacles, the greater the range.

My second take away is this. There is little to no difference in usable range between the inexpensive radios and the more expensive radios when both are used in a low RF noise environment. In my case, purchasing more expensive radios for use where I live would not yield me any more usable range. If I purchased them it would be for other reasons.

My third takeaway. If I were to move closer to the city or into an area with notably higher RF background noise, like perhaps where you live, I would expect my range to be reduced, perhaps even dramatically, and that to improve on that I would likely need to purchase radios with substantially more selective receivers. But even then, I would not be able to better the range I can achieve in a low noise environment. Only fewer obstacles and higher antenna elevation would help with this.

Some things for you to consider.

1) Put a base radio in your home complete with an external antenna as high as you practically can afford to. Rely on that station for communication between home and your HTs while on foot in the neighborhood.
2) Purchase higher-quality radios if you are able to conclude that your range is truly being limited by off-channel RF noise and not obstacles. Some well seasoned local hams who own spectrum analyzers or other technical radio professionals could help you with this. Contact a local ham club for recommendations.
3) Consider putting up a repeater that is much closer to your home if you or a group of friends have access to a very high antenna location and could afford the capital and operating expense. If the closest repeater is truly to far away for your local use, having one that is within range could be an asset for you and the community. Height is everything.

Good luck on your journey.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[MacJack]

31 minutes ago, mbrun said:

Welcome to myGMRS.

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. Been there, done that. The misleading advertising of cheap radio brands is IMHO mostly to blame for the public’s unrealistic expectations of simplex radio range. In the real-world, range is a very tiny fraction of what the manufacturers assert. In my 20 years of experience with UHF, 1/2 mile HT-HT simplex range outdoors has become my only realistic expectation of coverage. Why? Because I have not yet experience less than that outdoors. It has always been that distance or more. I always hope for more depending local conditions.

I live about 20 miles SE of Cincinnati in an area where the RF noise floor is very low. When I tested range (reported on this forum) between Wouxun (KG-805G) radios and Part 90 radios (motorola and vertex ) there was no notable difference in usable range. .6 miles is all I could achieve reliably in my around-home test. Beyond that it was rapidly downhill, with hit and mis communications out to about 1-1/2 miles. Radios ranged in MSRP price from $30 each to $750. Terrain was mostly flat to slightly rolling, 60% trees, houses every 1-5 acres and some small fields.

Those same 805G radios have achieved HT-HT simplex coverage out to 2-1/2 +/- miles under more open outdoor terrain (fewer obstacles) conditions. Also, when connected to the base antenna above my home, the 805G has on a number of occasions communicated successfully through a repeater 50 miles to my north and whose antenna is many 100s of feet higher in elevation than mine. They have achieved 34 miles through select repeaters while using a mobile antenna on my vehicle, but can’t open a low-profile home-owner repeater beyond 1 mile.

So, my first takeaway from all this is that the more the obstacles between the radio antennas the less the usable distance. The higher the antenna, the fewer the obstacles, the greater the range.

My second take away is this. There is little to no difference in usable range between the inexpensive radios and the more expensive radios when both are used in a low RF noise environment. In my case, purchasing more expensive radios for use where I live would not yield me any more usable range. If I purchased them it would be for other reasons.

My third takeaway. If I were to move closer to the city or into an area with notably higher RF background noise, like perhaps where you live, I would expect my range to be reduced, perhaps even dramatically, and that to improve on that I would likely need to purchase radios with substantially more selective receivers. But even then, I would not be able to better the range I can achieve in a low noise environment. Only fewer obstacles and higher antenna elevation would help with this.

Some things for you to consider.

1) Put a base radio in your home complete with an external antenna as high as you practically can afford to. Rely on that station for communication between home and your HTs while on foot in the neighborhood.
2) Purchase higher-quality radios if you are able to conclude that your range is truly being limited by off-channel RF noise and not obstacles. Some well seasoned local hams who own spectrum analyzers or other technical radio professionals could help you with this. Contact a local ham club for recommendations.
3) Consider putting up a repeater that is much closer to your home if you or a group of friends have access to a very high antenna location and could afford the capital and operating expense. If the closest repeater is truly to far away for your local use, having one that is within range could be an asset for you and the community. Height is everything.

Good luck on your journey.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I like Michael #3 as putting a repeater at your home with HOA may not work as much as having another location for a repeater.  I purchased for $450 a VRX-7000 as a repeater set for half and full power at my house for the neighborhood.  No HOA here.

If I can add #4 to Michael list, we both became Hams after GMRS.  I live in the mountains of Western NC and we have access to a great GMRS repeater for 30 miles.  The owner is a Ham and coached me and my 12 year old grand daughter to become Hams as of last May.  It is a hold new world in the art of radio communication being a Ham.  

Hope this helps as you see that there is a bigger picture to what is ahead.     

[n4gix]

On 12/17/2021 at 11:16 AM, WROV332 said:

ROUND ROCK 725 (https://mygmrs.com/repeater/4720) - This is a 5W handheld record-relay type of repeater as described here (https://www.offgrid.technology/rr725-repeater/).

I have to question this. Since the repeater is listening on 467.725 and transmitting on 462.725 that would seem to imply that the owner has replaced the HT with a full-blown repeater. The other clue is that evidently the owner is using split tones, again implying a real repeater and not simply an HT with parroting capability. 

[Over2U]

RE: Range between your handheld Wouxun radios, have you tried use of different antennas, such as the Nagoya 771G?

[Russel]

I feel your pain.  My first set of Motorola blister pack GMRS radios would not work across my living room.  Not a fault of GMRS.  One, or both of the radios were DOA.  Replacing them solved the problem.

Still, hand-held radios of any ilk, especially with factory rubber duck antennas, are not very efficient for distance communications.  If I may suggest, consider replacing the rubber-duck antenna with an after market antenna.  If you are operating from inside a vehicle, consider an external window mount or a mag mount antenna stuck on your vehicle roof.  Operating a hand held with an antenna inside a vehicle greatly reduces your effective range.

One final thought.  Sometimes it isn't the distance, it's the landscape.  Buildings, hills, etc. all affect your range.  Sometimes moving to another location, preferrably higher, might help.  Sometimes just taking your handheld radio upstairs makes all the difference.