Repeater set up

[Muzic2Me]

I was inquiring on if anyone has a quick spreadsheet on all parts required to get a repeater going for gmrs. Rough estimate on all equipment, parts required...I have also been reading that the KG-100g is repeater capable with another same type radio. Is anyone tried this and what were your results and range with it if so.

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, Muzic2Me said:

...I have also been reading that the KG-100g is repeater capable with another same type radio. Is anyone tried this and what were your results and range with it if so.

"Some people..." 

"Some people..."

@OffRoaderXhas posted a YouTube Video instructing how to make a repeater with the 10 times more powerful KG-1000g! 

There are two followup videos posted by him, too:

How Far Can it Transmit?

How Is It Working After 30 Days?

[WyoJoe]

3 hours ago, Muzic2Me said:

I was inquiring on if anyone has a quick spreadsheet on all parts required to get a repeater going for gmrs. Rough estimate on all equipment, parts required...I have also been reading that the KG-100g is repeater capable with another same type radio. Is anyone tried this and what were your results and range with it if so.

While this is not a spreadsheet, these are the basic things you need:

1. Receiver - This is the radio that receives the incoming signal on the 467.xxx (repeater input) frequency

2. Transmitter - This is the radio that takes the received signal and re-transmits it on the 462.xxx (repeater output) frequency

3. Repeater Controller - This is the device that connects the receiver to the transmitter, and may add repeater ID functionality, and other features. Some radios like the Wouxon KG-1000G have repeater functions built in, so only a patch cable is required to connect the receiver to the transmitter.

4. Receiving antenna - can be combined with the transmitting antenna when using a duplexer

5. Transmitting antenna - can be combined with the receiving antenna when using a duplexer

6. Appropriate feedline for each antenna

7. Source of power for receiver and transmitter

8. Duplexer (optional) - allows receiver and transmitter to both use the same antenna and feedline, eliminating the need for a second antenna and feedline.

 

While the items above are what is needed, there are a lot of nuances that come into play. While theoretically you might be able to build a repeater using any combination of each of the above items, many things just may not work well in this circumstance. Certain combinations work well, while other combinations just don't do so.

If you obtain a purpose-built repeater, such as a Vertex VXR-7000 or Retevis RT-97, it will combine at least items 1, 2, and 3 into a single device.

You can use a duplexer to allow the use of only one antenna and feedline for both receive and transmit. Of course, if you do, you'll also need the appropriate patch cables to connect the duplexer to the receiver and transmitter. The Retevis RT-97 includes a built-in duplexer, and on other repeater models a duplexer may be included, but often is not.

About the simplest way to get a repeater up and running is to use a purpose built device like the Retevis RT-97, along with a decent antenna and feedline, as well as an appropriate power source. Because it is a relatively low power unit, many people use it with a solar panel and 12V battery, rather than connecting it to the "grid." This is often done in a portable configuration using a "roll-up" J-pole antenna hoisted into a tree.

Overall, a repeater is, in many ways, like a car. A car has an engine, transmission, wheels, and so on, while a repeater has the parts mentioned above. It is a system of component parts, which when properly matched, performs well the function for which it was intended. If they are not properly matched, the system will not work well.

For more information, you might want to check out repeater-builder.com.

 

[Muzic2Me]

Thank you so much for the shared information. I have the wouxon KG1000g and did not know how well they perform in this set-up. Thanks again for the info. I will study and gather all information to make a sound decision. 

                                                                                                                    

 

[OffRoaderX]

After having built a repeater with two KG-1000g's, which is a great learning experience, it would be much cheaper and and easier to get something like a Retevis RT97 or a used Vertex VXR 7000.

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, OffRoaderX said:

After having built a repeater with two KG-1000g's, which is a great learning experience, it would be much cheaper and and easier to get something like a Retevis RT97 or a used Vertex VXR 7000.

What are the wattage output differences and the cost differential?

It would have been much cheaper and easier to get an ICE automobile, but now with my EV, I have no idea what a gallon of gasoline goes for these days: now that the Oil Oligopoly is taking advantage of the immense increased demand for gasoline compared to 18 months ago (when they could not give a barrel of crude petroleum away without paying for a shipping container company to take it off their hands; i.e. the cost of a gallon of crude petroleum was NEGATIVE!?!).

It was just a matter of time for them to stick it to the consumers of the world to make up for all that "lost" revenues; and yes, my natural gas bill has gone up this year, too!

Just an "crude" analogy

[OffRoaderX]

The KG-1000G setup will have more output but a "real" repeater like the VXR7000 with only half the power, has much better (almost 2X) range - probably because the internal shielding which reduces desense, and the better/high-quality duplexer.. you COULD spend the extra money on a KG1000 setup for a better quality duplexer, but that gets costly.

The Retevis outputs far less power than either setup, but gets about the same range as the KG1000 setup..   Roughly 30-40 miles to a mobile radio, even further to a base-radio.

[WRAM370]

As for the “rough estimate” on putting it together...

Based on the price of two KG-1000 radios, and the other parts needed, as described above, you would be into such a build for at around $1000-$1200, depending on several factors.

Using the Retevis RT-97, you would probably be into it for $500-$700, again depending upon the cost of an antenna and the feedline you use.

Having many decades of hands-on experience with radios/repeaters of many types (I am not a professional), I don’t personally see the value of the RT-97 for most users of GMRS. Yes, it is basically everything in a box, just add an antenna, but the inherent inefficiency of such a device, at the price point, is difficult for me to see value.

As an alternative option, I have built two GMRS repeaters in recent months for fun, using older commercial mobile radios, just as you would do with the KG-1000. The cost of the build for each repeater (minus antenna, feedline and power supply) was about $350. That cost includes two 40 watt radios (Maxon SM-4450), an ID-O-Matic controller, a 6 cavity mobile duplexer, and the required coax jumpers, 12v. cooling fan and thermal switch, and miscellaneous wire/connectors. That’s pretty decent if you compare that cost to just two KG-1000 radios @ $740.

This is not for everyone, as there are a lot of other factors that go into a build like I did (mostly, the requirement to program old radios in DOS or early versions of Windows, and also some useful equipment to align/tune components). I chose the Maxon SM-4450 specifically due to the ease of making the necessary connections (if you want more info on this, I would be happy to share...only one solder connection needed, all others are done using Dupont connectors). But it is still a cost effective option, if you have the means, or know someone who can.

I will be offering my builds up for sale at some hamfests this spring, since I don’t need them for myself, so maybe someone in your area is as geeky as I am. Check out local hamfests. You might find some good options there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Muzic2Me]

3 hours ago, WRAM370 said:

As for the “rough estimate” on putting it together...

Based on the price of two KG-1000 radios, and the other parts needed, as described above, you would be into such a build for at around $1000-$1200, depending on several factors.

Using the Retevis RT-97, you would probably be into it for $500-$700, again depending upon the cost of an antenna and the feedline you use.

Having many decades of hands-on experience with radios/repeaters of many types (I am not a professional), I don’t personally see the value of the RT-97 for most users of GMRS. Yes, it is basically everything in a box, just add an antenna, but the inherent inefficiency of such a device, at the price point, is difficult for me to see value.

As an alternative option, I have built two GMRS repeaters in recent months for fun, using older commercial mobile radios, just as you would do with the KG-1000. The cost of the build for each repeater (minus antenna, feedline and power supply) was about $350. That cost includes two 40 watt radios (Maxon SM-4450), an ID-O-Matic controller, a 6 cavity mobile duplexer, and the required coax jumpers, 12v. cooling fan and thermal switch, and miscellaneous wire/connectors. That’s pretty decent if you compare that cost to just two KG-1000 radios @ $740.

This is not for everyone, as there are a lot of other factors that go into a build like I did (mostly, the requirement to program old radios in DOS or early versions of Windows, and also some useful equipment to align/tune components). I chose the Maxon SM-4450 specifically due to the ease of making the necessary connections (if you want more info on this, I would be happy to share...only one solder connection needed, all others are done using Dupont connectors). But it is still a cost effective option, if you have the means, or know someone who can.

I will be offering my builds up for sale at some hamfests this spring, since I don’t need them for myself, so maybe someone in your area is as geeky as I am. Check out local hamfests. You might find some good options there.

 

 

 

 

 

I’m not to tech savvy.I’ve went through ciscos ccna, but no programming, so forth. That’s great you have the know how’s to build the stuff. 

[alexd51]

I was in the same boat and i was also going the KG1000. Thank God they were out of stock when i decided to purchase and in the meantime i started looking at alternatives.
This was conclusion.

2 KG1000 roughly close to $800

Antenna and feed line $300

Power supply $120 after i got to this point $1200 i decided to look in another direction.

Retevis RT97 $500 plus antenna and feed line again close to $1K and the retevis is nice , self contained and portable but the power is laughable for the price. Everything has it's place and this RT97 is good as a portable repeater but not for a home environment.

Looked in eBay and found a used Vertex Standard VXR 7000 price range from  $395 to $600 mostly without duplexer. Chinese duplexer about $150 tuned and delivered so this was looking like the best option with a good proven and reliable repeater. I found by chance a VXR 7000 with the duplexer for about $500 and i pulled the plug and got it.Antenna was $206 with tax of amazon and 75' of cable was another $100. I got 2 top rail poles from home depot and installed the antenna at 20' high and at that range i am getting close to 20 miles from it. I also bought a tower so the antenna will be soon at 60' and that should give me more coverage.

I might have spent close to the price of doing the KG1000 repeater but i have a true repeater that is doing exactly what it was designed to do instead of putting parts together. I will not tell you what to do but from my experience you will spend less money buying a repeater than making one out of radios unless you already have the radios on hand then you will be saving some money if not then i think my route will be cheaper and more reliable.

[WyoJoe]

1 hour ago, alexd51 said:

I found by chance a VXR 7000 with the duplexer for about $500 and i pulled the plug and got it.

Is the duplexer already tuned for your desired frequency? Is vendor tuning the duplexer for your desired frequency?

If no in both cases, then you'll have to get the duplexer tuned. I assume you know this already, but wanted to mention it since the duplexer in the repeater will likely be tuned for a different frequency than what you plan to use.

I really like the VXR-7000 and have found it to be about the most cost-effective repeater solution available. For mine, I went with a flat-pack duplexer that I installed inside the unit, so it's self contained. I had to fabricate a mount for it because I didn't have the factory mount, and I don't think it would have worked with the duplexer I bought.

I just made two "straps" out of 1/8" x 3/4" flat stock, and bought metric screws to attach to the factory mounting holes. I used a little foam padding for cushion and strapped the duplexer to the repeater, and arranged the cables as necessary.

It is working well for me.

I also bought a programming cable with the CE-27 program disk which allows me to program the VXR-7000 easily.

[gman1971]

21 hours ago, alexd51 said:

I found by chance a VXR 7000 with the duplexer for about $500 and i pulled the plug and got it.

Congrats!

[alexd51]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:59 PM, WyoJoe said:

Is the duplexer already tuned for your desired frequency? Is vendor tuning the duplexer for your desired frequency?

If no in both cases, then you'll have to get the duplexer tuned. I assume you know this already, but wanted to mention it since the duplexer in the repeater will likely be tuned for a different frequency than what you plan to use.

I really like the VXR-7000 and have found it to be about the most cost-effective repeater solution available. For mine, I went with a flat-pack duplexer that I installed inside the unit, so it's self contained. I had to fabricate a mount for it because I didn't have the factory mount, and I don't think it would have worked with the duplexer I bought.

I just made two "straps" out of 1/8" x 3/4" flat stock, and bought metric screws to attach to the factory mounting holes. I used a little foam padding for cushion and strapped the duplexer to the repeater, and arranged the cables as necessary.

It is working well for me.

I also bought a programming cable with the CE-27 program disk which allows me to program the VXR-7000 easily.

Frequency programing and duplexer tuning was part of the sale. But never owning a repeater before i sent them the frequency like you program a radio and they programed it exactly like that and tuned the duplexer. When i figured out i had made a mistake and called them the package had been already picked up by FedEx .
He apologized for not noticing the mistake and sent me another duplexer tuned to the right frequencies with a return label for the duplexer that was already in the repeater. It left the store 2 hrs after i talked to him.
All i had to do was re program the repeater. Finding the DOS version of the software was easy now finding the windows version was a nightmare lol

Do you know about Dealer Mode and Manufacturer Mode with CE27?

[Radioguy7268]

I'm sorry, but anyone who couldn't pick out the proper programming for a repeater (high/low vs. low/high) doesn't appear to be qualified to tune a duplexer.  I'd also be curious how they managed to tune it to the "wrong" frequencies if you just flipped the high & low sides.

 

[WyoJoe]

7 hours ago, alexd51 said:

All i had to do was re program the repeater. Finding the DOS version of the software was easy now finding the windows version was a nightmare lol

Do you know about Dealer Mode and Manufacturer Mode with CE27?

I bought my programming cable from The Antenna Farm, and it came with the CE-27 software on a disk. It runs on Windows, or in my case, it runs on Wine in Linux.

As for the Dealer and Manufacturer modes, I don't know what the difference is, but to run mine in "dealer" mode, I added the -d switch to the link for the executable file.

That provides the equivalent of launching the application from the command line with the -d switch, which would also work.

I haven't found anything I wanted to program on my repeater that the software won't allow me to program, so it works well for me.

[BoxCar]

13 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

I'm sorry, but anyone who couldn't pick out the proper programming for a repeater (high/low vs. low/high) doesn't appear to be qualified to tune a duplexer.  I'd also be curious how they managed to tune it to the "wrong" frequencies if you just flipped the high & low sides.

 

I know of several jurisdictions under 90.20 that run their repeaters "backwards." One of which is a statewide agency.

[Radioguy7268]

Yes - along with some amateur repeaters that also run reverse split - but not in GMRS, and still certainly worth questioning the information given when someone tells you that their repeater is going to Transmit on the 467.xxx, and Receive on the 462.xxx   

That's more than an "I screwed up".  That's closer to "I didn't have a clue."

 

 

[WRPR843]

I also just picked up a used VXR-7000 (and new to repeaters) and wanted to run a question by the group. I am waiting for the programming cable to come in (so I don't know how it is currently programmed). but when I hit the repeater/base button - the repeater light does not come on.  Is this dependent on how it is currently programmed (meaning does a setting have to be flipped before it becomes active?)  The light does come on at start up...Also...and this may be due to the current programming - but I cannot change the channel beyond channel 1...this may be due to it having 1 or no channels programmed...but not sure...any insight would be helpful...thanks   

[gortex2]

Not sure on the button but on the ICOM I have i can turn that button on and off. As for channels repeaters normally only have 1 channel. Thats the channel that the duplexer is tuned for. 

[WyoJoe]

7 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Not sure on the button but on the ICOM I have i can turn that button on and off. As for channels repeaters normally only have 1 channel. Thats the channel that the duplexer is tuned for. 

I set mine up with 16 channels, most of which were programmed to the same repeater pair (462.625 Tx / 467.625 Rx). The way mine is configured, I have six pre-configured tones (4 are CTCSS, 2 are DCS), with two channels for each tone (1 high power, 1 low power), all programmed to the same repeater pair (46x.625). With the change of a channel, I can select either high or low power, and any of the pre-configured tones should there be interference from other users. I then used the remaining channels to use the adjacent frequency pairs (46x.600 and 46x.650), with selectable power levels for each. They are slightly outside of the optimal frequency for the duplexer, but will work if needed.

That configuration allows me to change the required tone, power level, or even the frequency pair, with just a touch of a button.

[JB007Rules]

I'll bite on this one so you can get a realistic idea how much money it costs to put a super high end tall repeater in.

 

Here is a copy/paste from my costs for my system.  It's argued that if I went with the correct repeater (Motorola Quantar) from the get go I could have saved $806 ($365 + $200 re-tune on the used Kenwood TKR-850 + the $150 preamp).... SO say $7989.77 total.... I couldn't afford it and didn't want to deal with it out of the gate to be honest.

These costs are obviously not including any radios or monthly tower rent.  Nor does it include the correct test equipment (Dummy loads, antenna analyzer, etc etc). I also don't have a duplexer any more but when I did that was an additional $800 for a good 4 cavity EMR corp Band pass/band reject unit.

 

These costs DO include 66.6 hours of run time on dual 12V batteries at stand-by / 15.38 hours of talk time at 25W (half power).  + charger.  Note that the charger isn't very big because the Quantar also charges the batteries when power is restored.  That is in addition to however long the 1500VA APC will run it at full power on AC which isn't tested but looking at the LCD screen of the battery it shows about 2 hours stand-by on that and keyed at 50W of power, about 30 min of talk time.

 

You don't *NEED* Northcomm cables or all the backup stuff so if you consider a Quantar out of the gate and you subtract the other items you'd be closer to $7215.47.  It's also worth noting that you don't need a pre-amp with a quantar so that saves you a bit since a quantar's receive is insane good.  Every site is different and I'm on a receiver multi-coupler that has a pre-amp built into it.

 

Numbers below:

 

Item:     Cost:      Part Numbers:  Notes:

                                               

DB408   $952.50                 DB-408B              

Feed Line             $1,327.20             AVA7-50 x 280' @ $4.74/foot     

6' Stand Off Bracket        $0.00     S-600     Got as part of the tower climb

Clamps $108.28                 MS-SB50             

Grounding kits x 2            $30.38   SG158-12B2U ($15.19/each)      

Repeater             $395.00                 TKR-850               

Tower Climbers $1,700.00             9AM - 6PM        

1-5/8" Female N Connectors       $227.36                 158EZNF - 2 @ $113.68/each      

105AH Lead acid battery               $267.00                 Installing week of 6/14/21           

Noco G3500 3.5A charger             $63.70   G3500 Bought 11/23/2019           

1500VA APC Battery Backup        $178.60                 BX1500M            

Repeater re-tuning         $200.00                                

Pre-AMP             $150.00                                

Northcomm Cables         $200.00                                

Polyphaser VHF50HN     $120.00                                

105AH Lead acid battery               $332.00                 Installed 2/16/2022         

                                               

Quantar               $1,328.13                            

DC Cable 3084989T03      $71.76                  

DC Cable TRN5155A        $67.27                  

Quantar Tuning - Northcomm + Cables + Controller          $899.20                                

Freight for Quntar            $86.39                  

                                               

TOTAL:  $8,704.77                    

 

Hope this helps!          

[Fire18472]

WOW somebody has deep pockets

Maybe I’m old but my first call sign was WPOK494 and I started using an old Regency repeater way back then with an older duplexer which I installed a rf amp and it was on top of a mountain and it was usable from I-80 to the NY state line. Price $300

Now have been using two Motorola mobiles back to back with a newer duplexer with a I-D -o -matic as a repeater and a jpole antenna and lmr 400 coax been using it for a total of 10 years. Total Price $ 500

And now have a Vertex7000 repeater sitting here on my work table with duplexer and programmed up and checked out with the local radio shop which they gave it a clean bill of health and have a few choices of antenna &  coax ( one being M&P coax )at my disposal to use.  Price so far have approximately $600 

Was showing my use of radio(s) for repeater over my timeline 

And as the saying goes : Your use of this device may vary…Just my half a cent of …

Thanks 

Don WRBN575 

 

 

 

[WRZV592]

I know that this is an old thread but I was looking for some help, I set up this repeater and everything works like I want, other than the ID-O_Matic, I plugged it into the radios and I can hear the Morse id and the beep but once I plug it in, there is no audio for a user being transmitted. Once I unplug the ID-O-Matic, I can hear the other person just fine. I would appreciate any help. TIA!