Vehicle cup holder mount

[Newb]

Need an inexpensive cup holder mount for your small GMRS mobile?  Try a 3" plumbers test plug.  I got mine at Menards.

[WRUU653]

1 hour ago, Newb said:

One thing I forgot to add in any of my posts, the DB20-G was replaced by an KG-XS20G which was replaced by the f-221-1 iCOM.  I went to my local communication store looking for a Motorola to convert to GMRS.  The used Motorola radios he had were in sad shape and he is an iCOM dealer and had a pristine f221-1 that he had realigned that I couldn't pass up.  I am GMRS only so it was way more than I needed.  

I used Motorola's for work back before cell phones. Reading your post about the iCOM reminded me of them. I wasn't familiar with this radio before. I can apreaciate the concept of solid and simple. Thanks for sharing the info. And the cup holder idea... well it's brilliant, solid and simple. Cheers. 

[Sshannon]

5 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

When Ham Radio went digital, I was just offended that D*Star was proprietary software and never showed any interest in Digital until DMR (based upon TMDA) became available on the Radioddity RD-5R.

D-star isn’t proprietary. 
The problem is that it uses a codec (AMBE) that’s proprietary. Unfortunately, AMBE is used by every other commercially available digital radio mode as well. 

[gortex2]

20 hours ago, Newb said:

I believe the latest model replacement for the f-221-1 is the F5021/F6021 the F5 being VHF and the F6 being UHF.

Please pardon my ignorance but, what SAR and MDC. I don't find a viable Google definition for either.

Correct. 6021 is the multichannel radio. the 6011 is the 8 channel.

SAR - Search and Rescue

MDC - As linked above. We switched to MDC signaling for many reasons but mostly so we know who is calling command in poor coverage locations. Most times MDC will make it to the command post even if audio is crap. Most radios have been replaced with the feature (Motorola and some ICOM). 

 

[MichaelLAX]

11 hours ago, Sshannon said:

D-star isn’t proprietary. 
The problem is that it uses a codec (AMBE) that’s proprietary. Unfortunately, AMBE is used by every other commercially available digital radio mode as well. 

I think you are being unduly technical about the vocabulary in my general statement that:

Quote

When Ham Radio went digital, I was just offended that D*Star was proprietary software and never showed any interest in Digital until DMR (based upon TMDA) became available on the Radioddity RD-5R.

The fact of the matter is that when D*Star become commercially available to amateur radio (and through the repeaters of my local PAPA club), ICOM was the only vendor that offered such equipment (and even to this day holds the trademark on the term D*Star).  That is when I made the decision that I did not want to be tied to one companies implementation of this technology and waited until DMR became popular, whose technology became freely available for multiple manufactures to implement, including of course CCRs.

By the time DMR and its Brandmeister implementation for Amateur Radio, became prevalent, even AMBE was being implemented without the requirement of separate license fees in such products as DVDongle, etc. by use of the relatively inexpensively licensed DVSI vocoder chip.

In any event, it is a side point that I made about ICOM and is not too relevant to the OP's current use of an ICOM LMR for GMRS mounted in his vehicle's cup-holder.

I don't think it is worth debating the technological specifics in a world where digital communications are available in many flavors from many vendors.

[KAF6045]

On 11/26/2022 at 3:37 PM, MichaelLAX said:

When Ham Radio went digital, I was just offended that D*Star was proprietary software and never showed any interest in Digital until DMR (based upon TMDA) became available on the Radioddity RD-5R.

As stated, D-STAR is not proprietary, the specifications are openly published by the Japan Amateur Radio League (or whatever they call themselves). It only looks proprietary because ICOM was the first (and for years, only) manufacturer of compatible radios. Kenwood DID produce D-STAR radios for a few years (and in some respects, the old D74 still out-features the new Icom ID52A -- the D74 supports analog APRS, not just DPRS embedded into voice packets), but discontinued the line, leaving ICOM as the only producer again.

The only proprietary part is the AMBE CODEC; the biggest hassle being that DMR, YSF, P25 all use a /different/ proprietary AMBE CODEC. This is why hotspots can easily cross mode DMR/YSF/P25 -- they only have to strip out the protocol header and rewrap the encoded voice stream with the new protocol. D-STAR to other modes requires having both CODECs, decoding one format and feeding it to the for re-encoding.

[MichaelLAX]

44 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

As stated, D-STAR is not proprietary, the specifications are openly published by the Japan Amateur Radio League (or whatever they call themselves). It only looks proprietary because ICOM was the first (and for years, only) manufacturer of compatible radios. Kenwood DID produce D-STAR radios for a few years (and in some respects, the old D74 still out-features the new Icom ID52A -- the D74 supports analog APRS, not just DPRS embedded into voice packets), but discontinued the line, leaving ICOM as the only producer again.

The only proprietary part is the AMBE CODEC; the biggest hassle being that DMR, YSF, P25 all use a /different/ proprietary AMBE CODEC. This is why hotspots can easily cross mode DMR/YSF/P25 -- they only have to strip out the protocol header and rewrap the encoded voice stream with the new protocol. D-STAR to other modes requires having both CODECs, decoding one format and feeding it to the for re-encoding.

So you're saying that Kenwood implementation of D*Star did not require any legal licenses from 3rd parties (other than the use of AMBE), such as ICOM and/or the Japan Amateur Radio League?

I believe you are historically incorrect, but it is just not worth the time to research the point and debate it.

[Sshannon]

12 minutes ago, MichaelLAX said:

So you're saying that Kenwood implementation of D*Star did not require any legal licenses from 3rd parties (other than the use of AMBE), such as ICOM and/or the Japan Amateur Radio League?

I believe you are historically incorrect, but it is just not worth the time to research the point and debate it.

From Wikipedia:

Even critics praise the openness of the rest of the D-STAR standard^{[citation needed]} which can be implemented freely. As of 2017 the patents have expired, as announced by Bruce Perens, K6BP at the 2017 ARRL/TAPR DCC in his State of Digital Voice talk.

[MichaelLAX]

26 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

From Wikipedia:

Even critics praise the openness of the rest of the D-STAR standard^{[citation needed]} which can be implemented freely. As of 2017 the patents have expired, as announced by Bruce Perens, K6BP at the 2017 ARRL/TAPR DCC in his State of Digital Voice talk.

With all due respect, that is not an answer to my question which was historical.

Further, Wikipedia is not the end all/be all; it is like any other encyclopedia: you have to do further research on their citations to be sure they are making a correct statement -- in this context the quote you made shows NO citation to further research the truth of their statement.

Are you suggesting that Kenwood manufactures and distributes D*Star radios  without any licenses based upon a quote from Wikipedia?

If that were true, where are all the CCR D*Star radios?!?

[Sshannon]

3 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

With all due respect, that is not an answer to my question which was historical.

Further, Wikipedia is not the end all/be all; it is like any other encyclopedia: you have to do further research on their citations to be sure they are making a correct statement -- in this context the quote you made shows NO citation to further research the truth of their statement.

Are you suggesting that Kenwood manufactures and distributes D*Star radios  without any licenses based upon a quote from Wikipedia?

If that were true, where are all the CCR D*Star radios?!?

It’s good enough for me. You’re the one who makes BS statements with no citations and then challenges other to prove you wrong. I’m putting you on the ignore list for a while. 

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

It’s good enough for me. You’re the one who makes BS statements with no citations and then challenges other to prove you wrong. I’m putting you on the ignore list for a while. 

I’m truly sorry to hear that from you as I find you to be one of the more serious intelligent members of this Forum. 

If you feel that any past statement of mine is factually inaccurate, please link me to it and I will be happy to back up its accuracy or admit that I was wrong. 

On the issue of my contention that D*Star is proprietary, the proof of the pudding is that there are no Baofeng, Radioddity, TYT or other CCR D*Star radios for sale. 

[KAF6045]

4 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

So you're saying that Kenwood implementation of D*Star did not require any legal licenses from 3rd parties (other than the use of AMBE), such as ICOM and/or the Japan Amateur Radio League?

I believe you are historically incorrect, but it is just not worth the time to research the point and debate it.

It may have, at the time, had to license from JARL -- but so did ICOM. The current ICOM ID-52A manual only lists licenses for: AMBE+2, zlib, and libpng -- the Kenwood manual doesn't list any licenses.

From Icom's own web site (emphasis mine)

Quote

What does "D-STAR" stand for?
The D-STAR stands for Digital Smart Technologies for Amateur Radio. It is an open standard digital communication protocol established by JARL*.

From some lecture series... https://slideplayer.com/slide/14501676/

 

Why haven't the chinese companies made them? Probably because the only market is Part 97 AMATEUR RADIO. Practically all of the "CCR"s are designed as Part 90 Land/Mobile radios with firmware modifications to limit to Amateur (or given this forum GMRS) frequencies (and submitted for type acceptance in all viable services). That leaves mainly the Japanese big three: Kenwood (whose HTs and mobile product line has been shrinking -- not even a dual-band HT, just basic 2m), ICOM (who pushes their own D-STAR gateway software), and Yaesu (which has its own PROPRIETARY "System Fusion/C4FM" digital mode); One has to go to Alinco to find a major name supporting DMR for Amateur.

Second, the D-STAR specific AMBE CODEC would be /another/ item they'd have to license. They already license the more common AMBE CODEC used for DMR and the other "business" digital modes.

[MichaelLAX]

On 11/26/2022 at 12:37 PM, MichaelLAX said:

When Ham Radio went digital, I was just offended that D*Star was proprietary software and never showed any interest in Digital until DMR (based upon TMDA) became available on the Radioddity RD-5R.

 

On 11/26/2022 at 6:22 PM, Sshannon said:

D-star isn’t proprietary. 
The problem is that it uses a codec (AMBE) that’s proprietary. Unfortunately, AMBE is used by every other commercially available digital radio mode as well. 

Ok, this has gone way off the boards, tempers have flared and research has been done by others even though I sought to avoid that consumption of time and energy on an off-topic point:

My original comment was historical and YES, when Ham Radio went digital, between 2001 and 2010 D*Star was proprietary and that is why I never used it.

@Sshannon and @KAF6045have done the work to show that, today, it appears that the proprietary owners of D*Star have "opened" their standard (whatever that means in a marketing document online). Thank you for your time and effort.

That does not change the historical fact that in 2010 I did not jump on D*Star and waited until DMR became available on the RD-5R some years later.

And that does not change my opinion that today there must be some proprietary aspect of the technology that keeps the CCR field from jumping on that bandwagon, otherwise they would be all over it, just like they are all over DMR and ham radio!

To the extent that my description, inartfully articulated or otherwise, of my history with D*Star caused this flare up, I apologize!

[KAF6045]

9 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

 

@Sshannon and @KAF6045have done the work to show that, today, it appears that the proprietary owners of D*Star have "opened" their standard (whatever that means in a marketing document online). Thank you for your time and effort.

As shown in my prior post -- D-Star was an open standard in 2001. If there was a period when it was proprietary it would have been during the development phase 1991-2001.

 

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, KAF6045 said:

As shown in my prior post -- D-Star was an open standard in 2001. If there was a period when it was proprietary it would have been during the development phase 1991-2001.

 

Since I pledged to @Sshannonthat I would back up any factual statement of mine cited to me as wrong, let me continue to support my claim that, at least initially, D*Star was proprietary.

Initially let's look at your "source" for this information:

You have posted an undated (although it says modified 3 years ago) online video slide-series, authored by Suparman Salim, entitled "What is D-Star"

It contains the statement: "2001 Open Specification Published - anyone can implement" and gives a cite to a pdf linked at ARRL's website.  That link is broken, but through my research, I believe the proper link is:

D-Star System: Technical Requirements for the Wireless System

Again, this ARRL linked document is an undated document and further it is an unsigned document, and nowhere in this document is there any mention of placing this information into the public domain or otherwise "open standard" for others to use license free.

It is my contention that the statement quoted is grammatically incorrect, in that it is mixing two separate concepts: One, that the Standard was developed in 2001 and that it is now an "open specification" having been transformed to such status, if at all, at some date later than 2001.

So let's look deeper:

I believe you and I both agree that D-Star was developed by the Japanese Amateur Radio League.

On the website of the JARL, there is published the document D-STAR (Digital Smart Technologies for Amateur Radio).  This document has modification dates listed from 2003 through 2019 and is authored to: The Japan Amateur Radio League, Inc.

On Page 9, under: Chapter 1 - General Information, there are listed two Japanese patents, with the following Note:

Quote

Note: The patents indicated above are registered only in Japan. Contact with Icom is required if an entity wishes to produce and or sell a D-STAR compatible product, device, application or service within the Japanese market.

While there are online claims that these patents have expired, whether true or not, this information, contained on the JARL website, continues to support my claim that D*Star was initially proprietary.

Again, my belief of the proof of the pudding is the lack of any CCR versions of D*Star; and this is not because of the AMBE Codec.  

Anyone can freely purchase the proper D*Star AMBE chip from Digital Voice Systems, Inc. and such purchase includes the necessary license to use that AMBE Codec in the purchaser's hardware implementation of D*Star hardware.

When Baofeng goes to its legal counsel for an opinion on their ability to manufacture a D*Star Ham Radio transceiver, their lawyer does not rest his opinion on some claim in a slide presentation or other claims made on the internet.  To avoid litigation, these lawyers will tell Baofeng to get a license from the proprietors who control this technology.

Where is the Baofeng D*Star unit?  

Either the license was too expensive, or more probably not offered at all on any basis that Baofeng could satisfy, conditions that Kenwood could satisfy and build into their higher cost business plan for selling D*Star units.

No proper business is going to attempt to manufacture and distribute a D*Star Ham Radio for which they are legally prohibited from selling in Japan; it is much too large a Ham Radio market.

[KAF6045]

1 hour ago, MichaelLAX said:

Again, this ARRL linked document is an undated document and further it is an unsigned document, and nowhere in this document is there any mention of placing this information into the public domain or otherwise "open standard" for others to use license free.

It is my contention that the statement quoted is grammatically incorrect, in that it is mixing two separate concepts: One, that the Standard was developed in 2001 and that it is now an "open specification" having been transformed to such status, if at all, at some date later than 2001.

Unfortunately, every web site I've found has qualified as "undated". https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjOjsOwxdH7AhUdlWoFHR-FClIQFnoECDkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.crarc.org.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F02%2FD-StarforDummiesReferenceEdition4.0.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0M5uIYG-Fgs3f-GKcY5l44

Quote

D-Star was created by the JARL (Japanese Amateur Radio League) in 2001 after three years of research. To try and get the commercial Amateur radio manufacturers to use it, they made it an ‘Open Standard’.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwitlM-iy9H7AhXgkWoFHaeKCYkQFnoECA0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icomamerica.com%2Fen%2Fdownloads%2FDownloadDocument.aspx%3FDocument%3D366&usg=AOvVaw10n8VlyX-dp140dx4D8O_3 (emphasis mine)

Quote

D-STAR
The History
D-STAR, a standard published in 2001, is the result of three years of research funded by the Japanese
government and administered by the JARL to investigate digital technologies for amateur radio. The
research involved Japanese radio manufacturers and other observers. Icom provided the equipment
used for development and testing. D-STAR radios and repeaters have been tested extensively over the
past two years and are now ready for public use.

D-STAR
An Overview
D-STAR is an open protocol--although it is published by JARL, it is available to be implemented by
anyone. (For definitions and explanations of terms, there is a glossary on page 6.) While Icom is the
only company to date that manufactures D-STAR-compatible radios, any equipment or software that
supports the D-STAR protocol will work with a D-STAR system. D-STAR systems can be built using both
commercial and homebrew equipment and software.
 

I would point out the mention of /past two years of testing/. Presuming that testing didn't begin until the standard was published, it would still only bring one to 2003 -- and the next paragraph reiterates that it is an OPEN protocol at that time (since "past two years" implies this document was  /current/ as of the end of the two years.

 

As for CCRs... My belief, mentioned previously, is that they don't find a sufficient MARKET for a D-STAR capable radio. D-STAR is only Amateur (as, I believe is System Fusion, which IS proprietary). The CCR makers produce radios designed for the entire VHF and UHF bands -- and use firmware to limit them to specific service bands. DMR, et al, are used by business and government entities -- a large market. Since they use the firmware to limit frequencies, it is no great effort to lock such a business radio into Amateur Only bands.

 

[Sshannon]

3 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

As for CCRs... My belief, mentioned previously, is that they don't find a sufficient MARKET for a D-STAR capable radio. D-STAR is only Amateur (as, I believe is System Fusion, which IS proprietary). The CCR makers produce radios designed for the entire VHF and UHF bands -- and use firmware to limit them to specific service bands. DMR, et al, are used by business and government entities -- a large market. Since they use the firmware to limit frequencies, it is no great effort to lock such a business radio into Amateur Only bands.

I agree.  The cheap radio business model is based on making a relatively few hardware designs that can be targeted at a wide array of markets, including commercial radio, GMRS, Amateur Radio, and MURS.  The incremental cost of targeting additional markets is very low, as is the hardware cost.

DMR is used by both commercial markets as well as amateur and as such appears to have greater interest than D-Star, even in the Amateur markets.  A radio made using DMR can be easily reconfigured to be used as a commercial radio or an amateur radio.  Although still an AMBE codec, it’s a different one than D-Star. The AMBE+2 codec used for DMR is the same one used for other digital modes, including D-Star, whereas there are chips used for D-Star which are not compatible with DMR.

But D-Star is unique.  Although it’s claimed to be open (a claim which I believe is technically accurate) it is entirely limited to ham radio.  That’s a tiny market compared to commercial radio.  There’s just nothing about the market to attract a cheap radio manufacturer.  

 

[Newb]

Is there a part of the cup holder mount that belongs to D*Star?    Talk about a topic that went WAY off track.

[Sshannon]

1 minute ago, Newb said:

Is there a part of the cup holder mount that belongs to D*Star?    Talk about a topic that went WAY off track.

Yeah, sorry about that

[Newb]

No need to be sorry, I think my rating got a little boost!  

[Sshannon]

5 minutes ago, Newb said:

No need to be sorry, I think my rating got a little boost!  

What a refreshing attitude. Don’t worry, we’ll change that!

[Newb]

Smiles are the greatest things in the world! We need way more of them!  Reading what people that know WAY more than do, that I can learn from makes me smile!  Win/Win!

[MichaelLAX]

5 hours ago, Newb said:

Is there a part of the cup holder mount that belongs to D*Star?    Talk about a topic that went WAY off track.

 

Full circle!!!!

 

[Newb]

Great! Don't forget to turn the plate just under the red nut over, it works better for me that was.  Add just a small amount of plastic safe oil or grease to the bottom taper so the rubber will expand easier.

[K7lon]

MichelLax where did you order the soux chief test plug. This would be perfect to mount a DB20-g in our UTV.

Thank you for the information. 

[Sshannon]

33 minutes ago, K7lon said:

MichelLax where did you order the soux chief test plug. This would be perfect to mount a DB20-g in our UTV.

Thank you for the information. 

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/plumbing/pipe-fittings/test-plugs

but every plumbing supply place should stock them.