Fixed station - what does that mean to FCC?

[KAF6045]

2 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't know what the PRSG website is, but looking at outdated information is not the best option for interpreting current rules.

Personal Radio Steering Group (Inc.)

I think it was run by one man in a spare room of his house... It claimed to be an organization for GMRS users back in the day when a GMRS license specified just two (main) frequency pairs (to go with the common cheap business band "A/B" (or 1/2) channel toggle). Used to publish a GMRS repeater directory.

Frequencies were not identified by Channel numbers, as I might, say, have requested .550 and .675 as my two frequencies, and put them into a radio as .675=A/1, .550=B/2 -- "you" may have requested .575 and .675 and put them in as .575=A/1, .675=B/2... My "channel 1" thereby is your "channel 2", and would be the only frequency we had in common. It took some time to get radios that still had the "shop/dealer" programmed two main channels, but allowed access to the interstitials when they became available (Maxon GMRS 210+3 is the unit I'm most familiar with -- 7 interstitials, FCC emergency channel, and two "dealer programmed" channels for the licensed frequencies. Note that repeaters did not get separate channels in these rigs -- they were either duplex, simplex, or had a toggle button to change behavior.

[OffRoaderX]

FFS, are you still arguing over this?  4 pages of trying to prove who's smarter over something that the FCC (based on their history of action) doesn't even care about? ..."some people" .... Need to go outside more often...

Just sayin...

[SteveShannon]

13 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

FFS, are you still arguing over this?  4 pages of trying to prove who's smarter over something that the FCC (based on their history of action) doesn't even care about? ..."some people" .... Need to go outside more often...

Just sayin...

It was -6 yesterday morning. Going out wasn’t an option.

 

[BoxCar]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

It was -6 yesterday morning. Going out wasn’t an option.

 

Wimp. I've gone out and started my car at -42 so I could drive to work.

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Wimp. I've gone out and started my car at -42 so I could drive to work.

I started my wife’s van so we could fly to Phoenix. Today I’m 70°

[wayoverthere]

27 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I started my wife’s van so we could fly to Phoenix. Today I’m 70°

65° and sunny over here

[WRUU653]

Hey I just came in from doing yard work and it’s 71, sunny and warm, time for a cold one  

[WRUU653]

Tune in next week when we discuss Volume, how much is too much… can you pass the pretzels please  

[UncleYoda]

4 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

FFS, are you still arguing over this?  ..."some people" .... Need to go outside more often...

The question is valid, and still unanswered.  Anybody who can't respond seriously goes on ignore.

[SteveShannon]

12 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

The question is valid, and still unanswered.  Anybody who can't respond seriously goes on ignore.

It had been answered several times, all in the same way, whether quoting the definition directly or paraphrasing. Here’s an example:

On 11/14/2022 at 6:12 PM, BoxCar said:

The definition is clear IMO. A fixed station is at a location that doesn't move and only communicates to another station that doesn't move either. Think of a microwave site. The dish only communicates to another dish some distance away. Neither end moves.

Fixed stations are radios in fixed locations that may only transmit analog signals directly to each other, using no more than 15 watts output power. They are allowed to transmit on either the 462 MHz main channels or the 467 MHz main channels. 

[Photoman5k]

34 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

It had been answered several times, all in the same way, whether quoting the definition directly or paraphrasing. Here’s an example:

Fixed stations are radios in fixed locations that may only transmit analog signals directly to each other, using no more than 15 watts output power. They are allowed to transmit on either the 462 MHz main channels or the 467 MHz main channels. 

That is actually much better and clearer than what the FCC gives as a definition. And you managed to do it without using "Fixed Station" as part of your definition. 

 

As an aside I give you all this from the office of the federal register pulled from the website of the federal archives. It's a guide on writing definitions for regulations. If you read through it then read through the definitions in the FCC's regulations you will very quickly see that the FCC itself has a hard time following guidelines. . Pay close attention to #4 

And of course for those that don't like following links I quoted it below.

Now I hope with the answer to the question finally out in the world we can allow this thread to go the way of the Dodo. 

Quote

Definitions

1. Avoid unnecessary definitions.

The main purpose of a definition is to achieve clarity without needless repetition. For this reason, "it is unnecessary" to define ordinary words that are used in their usual dictionary meaning.

DON'T SAY: Trash can means a receptacle for waste material.

2. Do not define in a way that conflicts with ordinary or accepted usage.

If possible, use a word in a way that is consistent with the its everyday meaning and do not define the word. Otherwise, you confuse the reader and risk using the word elsewhere in your regulations in its ordinary sense.

DON'T SAY: Airplane means an airplane, helicopter, or hot-air balloon.

SAY: Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight.

[Here the definition is broad enough to include any device that flies and at the same time the word is not used in a way that conflicts with its ordinary meaning.]

3. Do not define a term that is used only once or infrequently.

If a term is used only once or infrequently, spell out the meaning of the term at those few places it appears in the regulations.

4. Do not include part or all of the term being defined in the text of your definition.

A true definition should not include the term being defined as part of the definition. This forces the reader to consult a dictionary or look elsewhere in the regulations for the complete meaning.

DON'T SAY: Excepted position means a position in the excepted service.

5. Do not include a substantive rule within a definition.

A reader can easily miss a rule placed within a definition.

DON'T SAY: Sec. 200. Definitions. For the purpose of this part, alcoholic beverage means beer, wine, and liquor. Each owner of a business establishment serving alcoholic beverages shall obtain a license.

6. Place a definition where it is most easily found by the reader.

Generally, define a term that is used throughout a part or chapter at the beginning of that part or chapter. If you have a term that is used only once or in a few closely related sections, place the definition in the section where the term is used first.

7. Draft the regulations first, then draft the definitions.

It is difficult to determine how many times a particular word or concept will be used in a set of regulations before you start drafting. If you draft definitions before you draft your regulations, you may define a word that is not used.

Often a concept that is used in a set of regulations is complex and you must develop a phrase to use as shorthand for that concept. If you develop the phrase before you draft the regulations, the phrase may not be as appropriate as one developed during the process of drafting.

8. Do not use "must" in a definition.

The definition section of your regulations should not obligate anyone to do anything. For this reason, "must" is inappropriate for a definition. Instead, use the indicative mood.

DON'T SAY: Agency head must mean...

SAY: Agency head means...

9. List definitions as a group.

If you have a group of terms that you want to group together:

• Place the terms in a section called "Definitions".
• Place the defined terms in alphabetical order.
• Do not give any defined term a paragraph designation, for example, (a), (b), (c); however, subordinate paragraphs are designated beginning with the following level, for example (1), (2), (3).

EXAMPLE:

§ 100.3 Definitions.

For the purpose of this part --

Act means the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act of 1977.

OSMRE Director means the head of the Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement.

Regional Director means the head of the Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement in the region in which the state applying for a grant under this part is located.

This method of listing definitions makes your task easier if you ever have to add or remove definitions. You do not have to change the paragraph designation (known as redesignation) of each term that appears after terms are added or removed.

 

[Photoman5k]

1 hour ago, UncleYoda said:

The question is valid, and still unanswered.  Anybody who can't respond seriously goes on ignore.

It's been answered. 

[Photoman5k]

9 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Thanks for making the point I've been trying to get across and most of the guys here don't understand (and probably never will).  Yea, that reference to something that used to be different may explain why it is not clear.  I don't know what the PRSG website is, but looking at outdated information is not the best option for interpreting current rules.  The current rules need to stand on their own with sufficient detail and proper wording for clarity and consistent interpretation (which it's obvious we don't have here).

it explains the concept of a fixed stations though. 

[UncleYoda]

13 hours ago, Photoman5k said:

with the answer to the question finally out in the world

Nobody has actually said anything meaningful.  I already knew what the regs said.  And all these nutty opinions people post on here mean nothing.  The title and original post were what does it mean to FCC, not what Joe Blow thinks it means.  But if everybody will leave it alone I will too because it's clear nobody knows.

[SteveShannon]

53 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Nobody has actually said anything meaningful.  I already knew what the regs said.  And all these nutty opinions people post on here mean nothing.  The title and original post were what does it mean to FCC, not what Joe Blow thinks it means.  But if everybody will leave it alone I will too because it's clear nobody knows.

That’s the entire purpose of FCC regulations, capturing what it means to the FCC. No more and no less.

Fixed stations are radios in fixed locations that may only transmit analog signals directly to each other, using no more than 15 watts output power. They are allowed to transmit on either the 462 MHz main channels or the 467 MHz main channels. They may be operated by remote control.

I just added that last sentence, but it’s important because it allows a fixed station under direct control to communicate to another fixed station which you are remotely controlling. Thus, a pair of fixed stations, using audio tones, could be used to control an irrigation system or detect and report various alarm conditions, etc, similar to a very basic SCADA system.

Or it could be used to form a full duplex intercom system.

Or anything else that you can conceive of that can be done using full or half duplex, audio only with 15 watts.

It’s really up to you.  FCC simply put some limitations on.

[BoxCar]

Fixed stations in the Part 95 service are limited to analog transmission but that doesn't hold true in other parts of the regulations. Part 101, microwave, is now almost exclusively digital and those are fixed stations. Within Part 90 fixed stations are a mix of analog and digital. So, the statement that fixed stations only communicate with other fixed stations covers both types of emission.

[SteveShannon]

15 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Fixed stations in the Part 95 service are limited to analog transmission but that doesn't hold true in other parts of the regulations. Part 101, microwave, is now almost exclusively digital and those are fixed stations. Within Part 90 fixed stations are a mix of analog and digital. So, the statement that fixed stations only communicate with other fixed stations covers both types of emission.

I agree, but his question was about GMRS, so my response stayed within the limitations of Subpart E.

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, BoxCar said:

So, the statement that fixed stations only communicate with other fixed stations covers both types of emission.

Diurnal and nocturnal emissions? 

[Photoman5k]

13 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Nobody has actually said anything meaningful.  I already knew what the regs said.  And all these nutty opinions people post on here mean nothing.  The title and original post were what does it mean to FCC, not what Joe Blow thinks it means.  But if everybody will leave it alone I will too because it's clear nobody knows.

I gave you an example of what a fixed station is. Other people gave you examples of what it is. From the example I gave you alone you should have been able to figure out that whatever it is you want to do or buy, a fixed station is not something you have to worry about.

You're overthinking this whole thing. A fixed station has nothing to do with whatever it is your wanting to do, not knowing what that is exactly you want to do I'm still 1000% sure of it. If you're looking to set up a base station, you don't have to worry about it because a base station isn't a fixed station, and a fixed station isn't a base station.

Unless your looking to use a GMRS radio to set up some type of alarm system, or two-way intercom system or something similar you don't need to worry about what a fixed station is.

Stop overthinking things and just do what it is you were planning to do. 

[UncleYoda]

10 hours ago, Photoman5k said:

I gave you an example of what a fixed station is. Other people gave you examples of what it is.

But those are just what you and the other guys think it may mean.  There is no authority to it.  If FCC gave examples, then we'd have something.

Quote

If you're looking to set up a base station, you don't have to worry about it because a base station isn't a fixed station, and a fixed station isn't a base station.

Yes, base station is the main concern because it's obvious mobile and handheld portable in normal operation are not fixed stations.  And I had already come to that conclusion myself from reading the regs (if you want, look back where I said so and Sshannon asked me to explain that but I didn't bother).  There are lots of places on the internet where guys are claiming base stations can't have more than 15W because of misinterpreting the rule for fixed stations.  Amazon reviews is one place I saw recently, in the reviews or posted questions for a 20W mobile, somebody answered and told the prospective buyer he could not use it for a base station.  These kinds of comments are common.  So, yea, a 20W mobile is fine to set up as a base and if I get one I would probably swap back and forth between that and the vehicle.   BUT!... This leads to another hitch which would be best handled in another thread, however with the reactions I've gotten here I doubt I will bother.

Quote

Stop overthinking things and just do what it is you were planning to do.

If I'm overthinking it, it's my business and the rest of y'all here who aren't interested are free to ignore what I post.  So far, I see a few users who dominate all the conversations here as if they are experts and they attack and criticize anybody who dares doubt their wisdom.  Well, I won't even bother debating with them anymore.  And if you want to continue criticizing how I think I'll treat you the same.  Really, I don't even need this forum to just use the radios.

[BoxCar]

Uncle Yoda,

If you want a definitive answer on fixed stations, ask the people that wrote the rule. The Wireless Bureau answers email enquiries every day and the answer is free. The key piece is that fixed stations are stations that are not used for normal communications in the GMR service. If a unit does more than communicate to more than one station the class of the station changes to either a base or control station. It's really very simple.

[KAF6045]

I strongly suspect any fixed stations for GMRS are grandfathered units. After all, by definition you will never have "one" fixed station. Two are required to fit the point-to-point aspect.

I'd consider them "relay" stations. With four radios, two as "fixed", and consuming two different "channels" (fixed stations on Channel A, and other two on Channel B and some Carrier Detect->PTT logic, wiring the speaker->mic lines together:

radio 1/B <-> fixed 1/A <==> fixed 2/A <-> radio 2/B

... lets radio 1 relay traffic to radio 2 and vice versa. This is NOT a repeater as it is not full-duplex; all radios are operating simplex mode.

Using a 10dB gain parabolic dish or yagi results in a very directional beam for the two fixed stations, and takes the 15W output up to 150W ERP. With 150W ERP the fixed stations could be mountain top locations spanning most of a county, if not more, with the non-fixed radios... Essentially countywide simplex operations.

[SteveShannon]

36 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

I strongly suspect any fixed stations for GMRS are grandfathered units. After all, by definition you will never have "one" fixed station. Two are required to fit the point-to-point aspect.

I'd consider them "relay" stations. With four radios, two as "fixed", and consuming two different "channels" (fixed stations on Channel A, and other two on Channel B and some Carrier Detect->PTT logic, wiring the speaker->mic lines together:

radio 1/B <-> fixed 1/A <==> fixed 2/A <-> radio 2/B

... lets radio 1 relay traffic to radio 2 and vice versa. This is NOT a repeater as it is not full-duplex; all radios are operating simplex mode.

Using a 10dB gain parabolic dish or yagi results in a very directional beam for the two fixed stations, and takes the 15W output up to 150W ERP. With 150W ERP the fixed stations could be mountain top locations spanning most of a county, if not more, with the non-fixed radios... Essentially countywide simplex operations.

Just as a point of clarification: 

1. Nothing in the regulations prohibits full duplex between Fixed Stations, and
2. Nothing in the regulations prohibits a network of more than two Fixed Stations.

[UncleYoda]

5 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

Using a 10dB gain parabolic dish or yagi results in a very directional beam for the two fixed stations, and takes the 15W output up to 150W ERP.

I'm glad you distinguish 15W transmitter output from ERP.  That is how I see it as well.  That means the 6dbi antenna I got is good to use with up to 50W output (30 something more likely) because both of those items in 95.1767(a) are worded similarly.

[KAF6045]

43 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I'm glad you distinguish 15W transmitter output from ERP.  That is how I see it as well.  That means the 6dbi antenna I got is good to use with up to 50W output (30 something more likely) because both of those items in 95.1767(a) are worded similarly.

In the 1997 repeater directory, Jackson MI REACT had a repeater antenna providing 450W ERP, Saugatuck had one with 500W ERP. OTOH, Wayland had a repeater with 40W out, and 24W ERP!