Newbie question about GMRS repeater access requests

[Sab02r]

BREAK - BREAK  I am breaking into the conversation to say thanks WRVE426 for asking these questions, and thank you seasoned radio veterans for your valuable input.

This helps the rest of us noobs, who otherwise may not be commenting, learn as well.

In my area, a REACT repeater is on a list of repeaters classified as "grandfathered" by the FCC.  A person who claims to have helped set it up many years ago has indicated that it now runs in an "abandoned" condition since the agency that originally used it has moved on to a different comms system.  It is not listed on MyGMRS.com, and I have no way to know whom to ask for permission for it's use, though I do rarely but occasionally hear traffic from amateur users.

So, to glom on to WRVE426's original question: Should one wait for explicit (written) permission prior to accessing a repeater, particularly one that may be unmanned?  Is it acceptable to access a repeater for which you have the codes in order to ask permission?  If attempts to hail someone for permission go unanswered...what then?

[MichaelLAX]

Which list? So you hear communications on it.  What do you mean by "I... occasionally hear traffic from amateur users*?"  On a GMRS frequency?

Waiting for written permission is challenging even on those repeaters listed here on myGMRS.  But here you do not even know how to ask for permission.

Ignoring the issue of abandonment: If you can get into the machine, of course you can ask others about rules, membership, permission, etc.

If unanswered the issue of abandonment comes to the forefront.

If truly abandoned, the issue of personal property abandonment is determined by Nebraska law.

But you do not need to take actual ownership of abandoned property just to use it.

I say: just use it until such time as someone objects and even at that time, their objection would require more analysis!

*You can go to QRZ.com, join and enter the amateur radio callsigns you hear so that you can contact them to inquire what they know about the repeater; by snail mail or email if listed.

Maybe it was set up by the Strategic Air Command?!? 

[MichaelLAX]

A few internet sources:

Heartland REACT

Nebraska REACT

GMRS Omaha Facebook Group

[Sab02r]

Hi Michael,

This list: http://www.thepeters.org/grandfathered_gmrs.html  (which may or may not be current and which I likely located through a link posted on myGMRS.com).

The traffic I hear is very infrequent, aside from the morse ID. 

One day last week the frequency was being used for station-to-station communications along the race course of a pre-Thanksgiving marathon or fun-run.  I left my HT scanning while doing some outdoor work and caught descriptions of the last few runners to cross the finish line...but never a callsign, so I assume the users were neither HAM nor GMRS license-holders.  (Perhaps I should have chosen a better descriptor than amateur.) 

That traffic amounted to a few intermittent mumbled sentences ("guy in the blue shorts with green shoes...third from the last") over the course of an hour, which is the most I have heard it used.   I did not attempt to correspond with them during the race to find out how they came to use the repeater...or if they even knew they were using it.

Prior to that, I have only heard occasional traffic, perhaps once or twice a week, and only while scanning, so I never hear more than a second or two of any broadcast at any given time, and by the time I navigate back there is no further traffic, so I cannot say what the content is.  I will add that channel as a priority channel in my scanlist so that I can better monitor its use.

It is definitely not SAC (they probably have better radios ), and I cannot say for sure that it is truly abandoned, as I was told. 

I would hate to start using a repeater and then find out it is being maintained for emergency use, so it seems I have some further research to do before I key the mic on that channel.  Thanks for the links.  I will post any info I find.

[WRUU653]

Just wondering here, how are you sure it was coming from the repeater and not simplex? I’m wondering if they were using FRS for the race?

[KAF6045]

4 hours ago, Sab02r said:

The traffic I hear is very infrequent, aside from the morse ID. 

If you can decode that ID, you should be able to look up the call sign in ULS. That should show the status of the license, and who the licensee/trustee is, probably with an address.

[MichaelLAX]

That is an interesting link: thank you for that document.

Try to record the morse code ID and attach the file to a message and we can look it up for you.

It might be FRS on the repeater output, but they would not likely have a morse code ID.

I looked up the map here on myGMRS and I see some repeaters west of Omaha, but I can't figure out the mileage scale on these maps.

Are you close enough to Lake 725?

[Sab02r]

13 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

Just wondering here, how are you sure it was coming from the repeater and not simplex? I’m wondering if they were using FRS for the race?

You are right to wonder.  I had the same initial thought, which is why I didn't monitor closer, but I am relatively sure I heard the repeater tail attached to at least two transmissions.

I am nine miles or more from anyplace that would be holding a fun-run.  I'm not sure if simplex would cover that, but I suppose it is possible.

[Sab02r]

8 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

That is an interesting link: thank you for that document.

Try to record the morse code ID and attach the file to a message and we can look it up for you.

It might be FRS on the repeater output, but they would not likely have a morse code ID.

I looked up the map here on myGMRS and I see some repeaters west of Omaha, but I can't figure out the mileage scale on these maps.

Are you close enough to Lake 725?

I thought it was interesting as well, though I cannot remember who posted it here originally to give credit where it is due. (Apologies to the OP)

As you and KAF6045 both mentioned, I will indeed try to record the morse ID and see where that takes us.

Please forgive my ineptitude here, but would FRS be able to trigger a repeater?  I suppose it could if no tones were required by the repeater...which effectively leaves the repeater open to any traffic on that frequency, whether intended for the repeater or not. Is that correct???

Lake 725 does not ring a bell, but I am close to the Platte River and there are many sandpits.  Looking at the myGMRS map, I see that BRA675 is an open active repeater in Brainard that shares the same frequency (462.675mHz, tone 141.3) with the Grand Island REACT repeater and an Emergency Management repeater in Fremont, and others in the "grandfathered" list. 

Though I am definitely outside of the 27 mile range listed for BRA675, I suspect that is probably the source of the traffic I have been hearing. 

Thanks to all for your input!

 

[SteveShannon]

24 minutes ago, Sab02r said:

I thought it was interesting as well, though I cannot remember who posted it here originally to give credit where it is due. (Apologies to the OP)

As you and KAF6045 both mentioned, I will indeed try to record the morse ID and see where that takes us.

Please forgive my ineptitude here, but would FRS be able to trigger a repeater?  I suppose it could if no tones were required by the repeater...which effectively leaves the repeater open to any traffic on that frequency, whether intended for the repeater or not. Is that correct???

Lake 725 does not ring a bell, but I am close to the Platte River and there are many sandpits.  Looking at the myGMRS map, I see that BRA675 is an open active repeater in Brainard that shares the same frequency (462.675mHz, tone 141.3) with the Grand Island REACT repeater and an Emergency Management repeater in Fremont, and others in the "grandfathered" list. 

Though I am definitely outside of the 27 mile range listed for BRA675, I suspect that is probably the source of the traffic I have been hearing. 

Thanks to all for your input!

 

Current FRS radios do not transmit on the 467 MHz repeater input frequencies, but they are allowed to transmit on the repeater output frequencies. So you might not be able to tell them apart.  That doesn’t mean they’re in violation. The frequencies are simply shared. 

[MichaelLAX]

I always like to turn on two options in Maps, because you never know: 

1) Offline; and

2) Stale

[Sab02r]

Thanks for mentioning that Michael,

I did not have stale and offline repeaters selected...but suddenly I understand your question about Lake725!

Nope, I am not in range, but at least now I know to look for stale repeaters!

 

 

[WSDS361]

Hello, I am new to GMRS and I have found this thread to be incredibly helpful. So thank you guys! I have applied for permissions on multiple repeaters, and most have gone unanswered. I do have a question and I hope you folks won’t mind answering, although it is slightly off-topic. I have set up my HT to talk to the repeaters and I can hear the repeater tail, but I can not actually hear my voice. Can anyone help me figure out what I’m doing wrong? I believe I have the correct offset and T-CTCS, hence the repeater tail. Though I’m not 100% sure I correctly understand what the repeater tail is. Any help is appreciated!

[WRXR255]

11 minutes ago, WSDS361 said:

Hello, I am new to GMRS and I have found this thread to be incredibly helpful. So thank you guys! I have applied for permissions on multiple repeaters, and most have gone unanswered. I do have a question and I hope you folks won’t mind answering, although it is slightly off-topic. I have set up my HT to talk to the repeaters and I can hear the repeater tail, but I can not actually hear my voice. Can anyone help me figure out what I’m doing wrong? I believe I have the correct offset and T-CTCS, hence the repeater tail. Though I’m not 100% sure I correctly understand what the repeater tail is. Any help is appreciated!

Are you listening on another radio?  You dont hear yourself repeated, if thats what you mean.

 

The tail is after you transmit, you might hear a bit of open silence after you let off the PTT, then the radio goes silent.

[dosw]

29 minutes ago, WSDS361 said:

Hello, I am new to GMRS and I have found this thread to be incredibly helpful. So thank you guys! I have applied for permissions on multiple repeaters, and most have gone unanswered. I do have a question and I hope you folks won’t mind answering, although it is slightly off-topic. I have set up my HT to talk to the repeaters and I can hear the repeater tail, but I can not actually hear my voice. Can anyone help me figure out what I’m doing wrong? I believe I have the correct offset and T-CTCS, hence the repeater tail. Though I’m not 100% sure I correctly understand what the repeater tail is. Any help is appreciated!

Probably should have started a new thread, since this is a new question largely unrelated to the original thread, that hasn't been active since 2022. But I'll try to answer:

 

If you hear the squelch tail it means you opened squelch on the repeater, which means you are at least getting enough signal through for the repeater to hear your PL tone or DCS code. Others should be able to hear you. Squelch tail is the sound the repeater makes when it is transmitting, but not still receiving a signal, but hasn't had enough time to stop transmitting yet. Here's the sequence of events:

1. You key up.
2. Repeater senses a transmission on its frequency.
3. Repeater detects that your PL tone is the one that it requires to open squelch.
4. Because it detected your tone, the repeater opens squelch and listens to you, while at the same time retransmitting your signal (which is coming in on a 467.xxxx frequency) out to everyone listening on the 462.xxxx frequency.
5. Other peoples' radios hear a transmission on the repeater output frequency.
6. Other peoples' radios decode the PL tone and open their squelch.
7. You talk for awhile.
8. You release your key.
9. The repeater stops receiving a signal, but is still transmitting for a brief moment.
10. The repeater notices the signal went away and stops transmitting.
11. Receiving radios notice the signal went away and stop receiving.

The squelch tail people hear is step 9 through 11. The repeater is transmitting for a brief moment without any input, so there's a short moment of some subdued static, your radio's squelch stays open during this time because the PL tone and carrier signal strength are holding the radio open.

If you hear this, it means you hit the repeater.

Now, why you can't hear yourself... why were you expecting to hear yourself (this is an actual question). Is it because (1) You think you should be able to hear yourself like you do on a telephone, or (2) because you had another radio nearby that was receiving? If it's "1", that just doesn't happen. GMRS radios operate on half-duplex while working repeaters. Telephones use full duplex. If it's "2", that's usually because the second radio is so close to the transmitting radio that its reception it totally overwhelmed by the power coming out of the transmitting radio, to the point that it doesn't hear the distant repeater's transmission.

Think of it this way: If someone shouts at you from 100 feet away in a quiet setting you will hear them. If someone shouts at you from 100 feet away while you have your car stereo blasting at full volume, you won't hear them. The person 100 feet away isn't putting out any less volume, it's just getting lost in all the noise.

The usual solution is to have someone take that other radio a tenth of a mile away and listen there, so that your transmitting radio's RF energy isn't overwhelming the listening radio's receiver.

 

[AdmiralCochrane]

4 hours ago, dosw said:

Probably should have started a new thread, since this is a new question largely unrelated to the original thread, that hasn't been active since 2022. But I'll try to answer:

 

If you hear the squelch tail it means you opened squelch on the repeater, which means you are at least getting enough signal through for the repeater to hear your PL tone or DCS code. Others should be able to hear you. Squelch tail is the sound the repeater makes when it is transmitting, but not still receiving a signal, but hasn't had enough time to stop transmitting yet. Here's the sequence of events:

1. You key up.
2. Repeater senses a transmission on its frequency.
3. Repeater detects that your PL tone is the one that it requires to open squelch.
4. Because it detected your tone, the repeater opens squelch and listens to you, while at the same time retransmitting your signal (which is coming in on a 467.xxxx frequency) out to everyone listening on the 462.xxxx frequency.
5. Other peoples' radios hear a transmission on the repeater output frequency.
6. Other peoples' radios decode the PL tone and open their squelch.
7. You talk for awhile.
8. You release your key.
9. The repeater stops receiving a signal, but is still transmitting for a brief moment.
10. The repeater notices the signal went away and stops transmitting.
11. Receiving radios notice the signal went away and stop receiving.

The squelch tail people hear is step 9 through 11. The repeater is transmitting for a brief moment without any input, so there's a short moment of some subdued static, your radio's squelch stays open during this time because the PL tone and carrier signal strength are holding the radio open.

If you hear this, it means you hit the repeater.

Now, why you can't hear yourself... why were you expecting to hear yourself (this is an actual question). Is it because (1) You think you should be able to hear yourself like you do on a telephone, or (2) because you had another radio nearby that was receiving? If it's "1", that just doesn't happen. GMRS radios operate on half-duplex while working repeaters. Telephones use full duplex. If it's "2", that's usually because the second radio is so close to the transmitting radio that its reception it totally overwhelmed by the power coming out of the transmitting radio, to the point that it doesn't hear the distant repeater's transmission.

Think of it this way: If someone shouts at you from 100 feet away in a quiet setting you will hear them. If someone shouts at you from 100 feet away while you have your car stereo blasting at full volume, you won't hear them. The person 100 feet away isn't putting out any less volume, it's just getting lost in all the noise.

The usual solution is to have someone take that other radio a tenth of a mile away and listen there, so that your transmitting radio's RF energy isn't overwhelming the listening radio's receiver.

 

You left important steps out:

1-b  your radio stops receiving

8-9 your radio returns to receiving

10- corrected.  After a brief waiting period, the repeater stops sending what it hears on the sender's input frequency;  the "tail"

 

 

Other comment:  the "repeater" is not a parrot, it is resending your transmission in live time on the output frequency