Which Digital Voice Modes Do You Have Equipment To Operate?

[Lscott]

I know people have a collection of radios, some digital enabled. I'm curious what digital voice modes do you have radios to operate? I want to specifically exclude hot spots, so it would be just base, mobile and HT's. Also what are the models and manufacture?

It seems there are pockets of activity for different voice modes across the country including repeaters. Is the operation primary simplex, duplex through repeaters or both?

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I know people have a collection of radios, some digital enabled. I'm curious what digital voice modes do you have radios to operate? I want to specifically exclude hot spots, so it would be just base, mobile and HT's. Also what are the models and manufacture?

It seems there are pockets of activity for different voice modes across the country including repeaters. Is the operation primary simplex, duplex through repeaters or both?

I have an Alinco MD-5 DMR VHF/UHF Radio.  Under the plastic it would appear to be an Anytone, but I prefer the Alinco implementation. I use it with the local UHF DMR repeater and I use it with the local analog 2m repeater our ham club provides. I also use it with my hotspot.

i also have a Yaesu FT5DR, which does VHF and UHF. There are no local C4FM repeaters, so I use it with my hotspot.  I also use it for analog 2m on the club repeater I mentioned above.

[radiozip]

I have the 3 main modes: Kenwood D74 for DStar, Yaesu 3DR for C4FM and Anytone D878IIplus for DMR. When I moved I lost any close by DStar repeaters, so limited to hotspot with that. C4FM and DMR have repeaters around me, more C4FM activity with one repeater connected to America Link. DMR is semi-active with the state and regional groups. Can't say I've ever heard any of these modes used simplex.

[wayoverthere]

I've got 2 of the main 3 covered:

• Picked up a ft-5dr on black Friday, primarily for APRS, and very recently grabbed a ftm400 (while I still can, to have a mobile with APRS)
• DMR is well covered between the btech dmr 6x2, the Moto xpr6500's, and the Vertex evx's (all handheld)
• Also have p25 covered on both 2m and 70cm, again handheld.

The digital landscape here is mainly DMR, with a little p25. I think there may be a c4fm repeater nearby with minimal activity, and one aimed for a few towns over that I haven't actually heard yet...we'll see what i can pick up when I get the mobile into the truck.

[SteveShannon]

35 minutes ago, radiozip said:

I have the 3 main modes: Kenwood D74 for DStar, Yaesu 3DR for C4FM and Anytone D878IIplus for DMR. When I moved I lost any close by DStar repeaters, so limited to hotspot with that. C4FM and DMR have repeaters around me, more C4FM activity with one repeater connected to America Link. DMR is semi-active with the state and regional groups. Can't say I've ever heard any of these modes used simplex.

I have used DMR in simplex.  There are actually several calling frequencies established for DMR and I’ve used thos as well.  DMR in simplex sounds just like over a good repeater and a little better than over a hotspot.

[Lscott]

I have radios for D-Star, DMR, P25 Phase 1 and NXDN (6.25 KHz and 12.5 KHz) in both VHF and UHF versions. I don't have anything for C4FM yet. I've been looking for a dPMR radio, which seems to be fairly common in Europe, and may start seeing in North America. 

[tweiss3]

I have D-Star, YSF, NXDN, P25 and DMR, each is covered in both VHF/UHF with HTs and Mobiles. 

Current daily carry is NX5200 with P25 & NXDN and NX5300 with P25 & DMR. I have a dual deck NX5700/5800 ready to go in with identical programming as the HTs. 

[SteveShannon]

23 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

I have D-Star, YSF, NXDN, P25 and DMR, each is covered in both VHF/UHF with HTs and Mobiles. 

Current daily carry is NX5200 with P25 & NXDN and NX5300 with P25 & DMR. I have a dual deck NX5700/5800 ready to go in with identical programming as the HTs. 

Of all those, which has the most pleasant voice reproduction?

Both DMR and C4FM make people sound like they’ve been drinking, sort of slurred. Those are the only ones I’m familiar with. 
How do you use NXDN and P25? Are those for amateur radio or commercial applications?

[WRQC527]

I have a Yaesu FT-70 HT and two Yaesu FTM-7250 mobiles. I only use C4FM on a couple of local repeaters. The majority of my activity is analog.

[Lscott]

42 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Of all those, which has the most pleasant voice reproduction?

Both DMR and C4FM make people sound like they’ve been drinking, sort of slurred. Those are the only ones I’m familiar with. 
How do you use NXDN and P25? Are those for amateur radio or commercial applications?

D-Star and YSF (C4FM) are specific for amateur radio. Everything else is commercial.

[SteveShannon]

9 minutes ago, Lscott said:

D-Star and YSF (C4FM) are specific for amateur radio. Everything else is commercial.

That’s true, but doesn’t answer either of my questions.  Similar to DMR, nothing prevents using NXDN or P25 on amateur radio.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

I have D-Star, YSF, NXDN, P25 and DMR, each is covered in both VHF/UHF with HTs and Mobiles. 

Current daily carry is NX5200 with P25 & NXDN and NX5300 with P25 & DMR. I have a dual deck NX5700/5800 ready to go in with identical programming as the HTs. 

How much did Kenwood charge you for the license keys for the different modes? I have a buddy that was gifted a NX-1300, the non display model, with NXDN only. I understand another license key, for DMR, can be loaded into the radio and the DMR firmware flashed. Then to switch between modes you have to re-flash the mode specific firmware. I was told the license doesn't need to be reloaded. I have the firmware for both. I have the programming software now I just need to find a display version of the radio, preferably DMR, but if not and it's NXDN I could switch it so long as I don't get raped on the license key.  

[Lscott]

4 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

That’s true, but doesn’t answer either of my questions.  Similar to DMR, nothing prevents using NXDN or P25 on amateur radio.

True. As long as the mode details are published it doesn't count as a "secret code" and you're free to use it on the Ham bands. BUT you can't use the encryption feature in those modes!

I think another group is trying to come up with a public domain digital voice mode, M17.

https://m17project.org/

[tweiss3]

3 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Of all those, which has the most pleasant voice reproduction?

Both DMR and C4FM make people sound like they’ve been drinking, sort of slurred. Those are the only ones I’m familiar with. 
How do you use NXDN and P25? Are those for amateur radio or commercial applications?

1) I will rate them in according to my preference on audio quality: NXDN - P25 - YSF - DStar - DMR. This does not indicate my preference for the mode overall, just how it sounds. Let me explain a bit more. Lets be honest, turning the volume up too high always makes received audio sound badly. This is often exacerbated by a quiet room/office and some auto reflecting off walls, ceilings, desks. Take that out of the equation, walking around the house, a shop, outside, or even in the car on the go, the above is how I think they sound. And it is not using a hotspot, though PiStar supports all 5, but using them either simplex, or via repeaters on local use (of local talkgroup). NXDN and P25 are very much almost the same great sound, I just can't get over the bandwidth use of NXDN very narrow, which also pulls it's lead ahead. Keep in mind, this is based on use in amateur radio, which also has other factors. Don't get me wrong the $15 radio has it's place, and it has helped a more wide spread support of DMR, but it has also ruined DMR at the same time. That being said, if I were to get business licenses, DMR would be one of the emissions types I would have on the application. It has it's place, but the cheap stuff people use is just not setup correctly, and ruins the experience.

2) I use these on amateur radio, and their use is nearly identically as DMR, but with some minor differences, and maybe 1 or 2 major. Forgive me if this is too broken down, but I'll explain. As you know DMR uses a color code (CC) as it's squelch (like CTCSS), has 2 timeslots, and you must pick a talkgroup. All 3 must be programmed for DMR to work. It's not that difficult, but yes, you can get lost pretty easily if you don't understand how and why. NXDN & P25 (conventional, we can only realistically use conventional in amateur radio) do not have timeslots, there is 1 voice path. If you are using a repeater that is based on PiStar, similar, or even a hotspot, both require talkgroups to be chosen. Same as DMR, chunk a TG and it gets linked, chunk the disconnect TG, it clears. The really cool thing about these two modes, the repeaters (if a true digital commercial repeater) can do mixed mode, meaning it can use both Analog/P25 or Analog/NXDN, and change on the fly based on signal received. There is a repeater northeast of me that I get in range every once in a while. In P25 mode, using my 5w HT, while driving, I cut a conversation short at 16.8 miles because I wasn't sure when my range dropped out, but the gentlemen I was talking to said I was clear the entire time. The other positive is when programming the radio, you can put in a NAC (P25) of F7E or RAN (NXDN) of None and it acts as carrier squelch, so you can listen to all digital traffic on that frequency and not need to track down or log a NAC/RAN. NAC/RAN is still needed on transmit if set on the repeater, but for listening to other stuff, digital CSQ is wonderful.

 

2 hours ago, Lscott said:

How much did Kenwood charge you for the license keys for the different modes? I have a buddy that was gifted a NX-1300, the non display model, with NXDN only. I understand another license key, for DMR, can be loaded into the radio and the DMR firmware flashed. Then to switch between modes you have to re-flash the mode specific firmware. I was told the license doesn't need to be reloaded. I have the firmware for both. I have the programming software now I just need to find a display version of the radio, preferably DMR, but if not and it's NXDN I could switch it so long as I don't get raped on the license key.  

The license is not much for DMR. If you really want to know, PM me, and I can point you in the direction I got my entitlements and approximate costs. P25 is the one that hurts. And FPP isn't exactly cheap, but worth it on VHF (and UHF if you need to change digital stuff around). But yes, once you add an entitlement to a radio, it is permanent to that radio serial after 72 hours. No need to re-enable it. You would switch by loading a new codeplug. If I remember correctly, the NX1200/1300 requires KPG-D3N, which is interesting.

 

[SteveShannon]

@tweiss3

Thank you!  That’s exactly the level of detail I hoped to hear.

[gortex2]

I have P25, DMR and Fushion. I really only use P25 for simplex and repeater use. Basically use it all day every day. The only Fusion stuff I have is my APRS radios in my jeeps and a handheld but really the radio sits on 144.390 for APRS and 146.520 and rarely is changed. DMR I have a few handhelds, hotspots and a mobile but have no interest. P25 is so much cleaner and quiet for what I use RF for. Other than the Fushion/Yaseu all my gear is Motorola and mostly all APX with some XTL/XTS splattered in if needed. 

[pcradio]

It would be good to have a sample sound output from the various digital modes made from same voice input. I do not like the sound of DMR and what it does to the human voice. For professional applications, sure, cram everything to utilize your limited frequency.

While AllStar is a linking protocol, and not a mode, at least it does so using VoIP codecs like G.711 (ulaw) which sound fantastic, G722 being the best. In my opinion, that is the direction we need to go as a group. When you hear a proper voice codec next to DMR or the other popular digital modes, you won't want to go back.

So I would like to see radios use G722 and then package that in a way for simplex and group repeating situations. We don't need to do what others are doing just because the word digital is being thrown around.

Digital, with limited sampling is not better, it is worse.

[tweiss3]

22 minutes ago, pcradio said:

It would be good to have a sample sound output from the various digital modes made from same voice input. I do not like the sound of DMR and what it does to the human voice. For professional applications, sure, cram everything to utilize your limited frequency.

While AllStar is a linking protocol, and not a mode, at least it does so using VoIP codecs like G.711 (ulaw) which sound fantastic, G722 being the best. In my opinion, that is the direction we need to go as a group. When you hear a proper voice codec next to DMR or the other popular digital modes, you won't want to go back.

So I would like to see radios use G722 and then package that in a way for simplex and group repeating situations. We don't need to do what others are doing just because the word digital is being thrown around.

Digital, with limited sampling is not better, it is worse.

This is VHF, recorded direct to SD card.

P25:

 

 

NXDN:

 

 

I need to find a way to record DMR on one of these radios, I only have 1 that has the SD card recording entitlement. 

[labreja]

Lscott,

Although I haven't used any digital voice modes to communicate yet, (just listening) I can report that my Yaesu FT5D sounds great when listening to C4fm repeaters in my area.

I use a Signal Stick antenna attached to the FT5D while outside, but then I connect it to an external antenna via a window pass-through while inside the house.  From what I understand, using C4fm is the most simple digital mode to use.  My friend has a Kenwood D74 which, I believe uses D-Star.  (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) He has had several issues attempting to use D-star, so he quit attempting.

Just my 2 cents.

I hope this is some help.

 

 

 

[MichaelLAX]

11 hours ago, tweiss3 said:

This is VHF, recorded direct to SD card.

P25:

 

 

NXDN:

 

 

I need to find a way to record DMR on one of these radios, I only have 1 that has the SD card recording entitlement. 

This is my best digital mode.  

 

[Lscott]

12 hours ago, pcradio said:

It would be good to have a sample sound output from the various digital modes made from same voice input. I do not like the sound of DMR and what it does to the human voice. For professional applications, sure, cram everything to utilize your limited frequency.

I frequently read similar comments, but doesn't really make sense. DMR, P25 and NXDN all use the exact same codec namely the AMBE2+. When the data rate is the same there should be no difference. Any difference you do hear most likely has to do with any pre and post audio processing done in the radio and not really due to the mode in question.

One of the chief problems has to do with ambient noise on the TX side. I've read about plenty of complaints, mainly by fire fighters and police, where things like sirens and other non human spoken sounds cause issues. The codec is HIGHLY optimized for human speech only and anything else will really muck up the encoding. The railroads found out that a lot of their equipment is controlled by DTMF tones that don't encode well with NXDN, and the have to switch back to analog FM when they need to use the tone controls.  

Because of the above just about every commercial grade digital radio has some kind of audio  processing before it's applied to the codec to eliminate any sound that isn't in the range for human speech.

[Lscott]

9 hours ago, labreja said:

Lscott,

Although I haven't used any digital voice modes to communicate yet, (just listening) I can report that my Yaesu FT5D sounds great when listening to C4fm repeaters in my area.

I use a Signal Stick antenna attached to the FT5D while outside, but then I connect it to an external antenna via a window pass-through while inside the house.  From what I understand, using C4fm is the most simple digital mode to use.  My friend has a Kenwood D74 which, I believe uses D-Star.  (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) He has had several issues attempting to use D-star, so he quit attempting.

Just my 2 cents.

I hope this is some help.

 

 

 

I have a TH-D74A as well. It has a complex menu system and can be a bear to learn how to use. Because of that it mostly just sits in a box. For the most part around my area it looks like more people are moving towards DMR and YSF (C4FM) and away from D-Star. Another reason why it doesn't really get used.

Personally I would love to see Kenwood replace the now discontinued D-Star TH-D74A with a tri-band version with DMR. Of course they would be competing against the cheaper Chinese radios, like the D878. I think if they had a rock solid radio without all of the firmware and radio programming bugs the D878 versions have people would pay the extra money.  They were already paying over $600 for the TH-D74A. Now discontinued they are selling used for way more than they cost new, up to a $1000 in some cases!!! Somebody is buying them.

The one thing I don't like about YSF is there currently exists just ONE vendor that makes radios using that mode. I like to have choices.

[Lscott]

19 hours ago, tweiss3 said:

This is VHF, recorded direct to SD card.

P25:

 

 

NXDN:

 

 

I need to find a way to record DMR on one of these radios, I only have 1 that has the SD card recording entitlement. 

The NXDN does sound a tiny bit better. It's a subtle difference to my old ears. Less mushy sounding. It's amazing it sounds as good as it does in the very narrow mode, which consumes less bandwidth than P25 does.

[KAF6045]

7 hours ago, Lscott said:

I have a TH-D74A as well. It has a complex menu system and can be a bear to learn how to use. Because of that it mostly just sits in a box. For the most part around my area it looks like more people are moving towards DMR and YSF (C4FM) and away from D-Star. Another reason why it doesn't really get used.

Strangely, I find the D74 easier to navigate than the new Icom ID-52 (the D74 also supports analog APRS).

Most of the DMR stuff around me is part of the CMEN/Mi5. While one can reach Statewide 1&2 from Brandmeister, one can NOT reach Brandmeister from their repeaters. The local D-STAR repeater, OTOH, is usually linked to REF030C.

 

[Lscott]

On 1/15/2023 at 1:30 PM, KAF6045 said:

Strangely, I find the D74 easier to navigate than the new Icom ID-52 (the D74 also supports analog APRS).

As sophisticated as the radios are becoming I just wished they would do one with voice commands. They have that now with the systems in modern cars.

Then second thing is provide an option to plug in a mobile radio to the communication network in the car so the ubiquitous info screen can be used to replace the front panel on the radio. Then you can stash the radio body out of sight and not screw around running cables all over the place, drilling holes etc. to mount it or the remote head. 

In place of that more manufactures can do what Anytone has done with the D578 buy offering a BT remote. It's about the size of a cell phone. I have one on order for mine.

https://powerwerx.com/anytone-bt01-bluetooth-mic-d578uv