GMRS Coded Talk

[WRVG593]

Hey there, I cannot find any articles on this topic. Is it allowed on GMRS to have 'coded talk'. For example, I'm simplexing my friend who has his own radio, we're on our tone we selected so we drown out other people talking. There's no offsets so we know for a fact it's simplex only. 

Now let's say I write up a list of codes... code 1 is I'm en route to your location, code 2 is I'm stopped, code 3 is I'm broke down, code 4 is understood/copy, etc etc. We both have a copy of the codes and no one knows what the codes mean except us, is that allowed?

And please do not mention what other people PREFER. Like groups or personal people. I don't care about preference, I care about regulation and law (Wed never break the fcc rules here)

 

 

[wrci350]

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.1733

In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

 

I'm not sure if tones work the way you think they do.  You're not "drowning out" anyone.  If your radio is set with a receive tone and someone transmits with a different tone (or no tone) you won't hear them, but if you happen to transmit at the same time there will be interference.  Tones also don't keep anyone from hearing you ... if a radio is set with no recieve tone, all traffic on that frequency will be heard.

[FlatTop]

9 minutes ago, WRVG593 said:

Hey there, I cannot find any articles on this topic. Is it allowed on GMRS to have 'coded talk'. For example, I'm simplexing my friend who has his own radio, we're on our tone we selected so we drown out other people talking. There's no offsets so we know for a fact it's simplex only. 

Now let's say I write up a list of codes... code 1 is I'm en route to your location, code 2 is I'm stopped, code 3 is I'm broke down, code 4 is understood/copy, etc etc. We both have a copy of the codes and no one knows what the codes mean except us, is that allowed?

And please do not mention what other people PREFER. Like groups or personal people. I don't care about preference, I care about regulation and law (Wed never break the fcc rules here)

 

 

Based on this section of Part 95....it seems like no.  

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

(1) Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law;

(2) False or deceptive messages;

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

(4) Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain;

(5) Advertisements or offers for the sale of goods or services;

(6) Advertisements for a political candidate or political campaign (messages about the campaign business may be communicated);

(7) International distress signals, such as the word “Mayday” (except when on a ship, aircraft or other vehicle in immediate danger to ask for help);

(8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station;

(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station;

(10) Continuous or uninterrupted transmissions, except for communications involving the immediate safety of life or property; and

(11) Messages for public address systems.

(12) The provision of § 95.333 apply, however, if the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary.

[WRVG593]

15 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.1733

In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

 

I'm not sure if tones work the way you think they do.  You're not "drowning out" anyone.  If your radio is set with a receive tone and someone transmits with a different tone (or no tone) you won't hear them, but if you happen to transmit at the same time there will be interference.  Tones also don't keep anyone from hearing you ... if a radio is set with no recieve tone, all traffic on that frequency will be heard.

I know how tones work. By 'drowning out others' I meant I don't hear them. I know people with no tone can hear what I say, and those with the same tone as well. With 10 codes... it says they are permissible? As in 10 codes such as 10-4(understood) are allowed?

[WRVG593]

16 minutes ago, JoCoBrian said:

Based on this section of Part 95....it seems like no.  

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

(1) Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law;

(2) False or deceptive messages;

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

(4) Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain;

(5) Advertisements or offers for the sale of goods or services;

(6) Advertisements for a political candidate or political campaign (messages about the campaign business may be communicated);

(7) International distress signals, such as the word “Mayday” (except when on a ship, aircraft or other vehicle in immediate danger to ask for help);

(8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station;

(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station;

(10) Continuous or uninterrupted transmissions, except for communications involving the immediate safety of life or property; and

(11) Messages for public address systems.

(12) The provision of § 95.333 apply, however, if the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary.

So 10 codes ARE allowed but others are not? As in I cannot make my own code? Thats at least what I obtained from that. 

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, WRVG593 said:

So 10 codes ARE allowed but others are not? As in I cannot make my own code? Thats at least what I obtained from that. 

That's exactly how I would understand it.

[WRUU653]

3 minutes ago, WRVG593 said:

So 10 codes ARE allowed but others are not? As in I cannot make my own code? Thats at least what I obtained from that. 

That’s a big 10-4

[WRVG593]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

That's exactly how I would understand it.

Well that's a B Buster. I wonder why 10 codes were permissible and others weren't, even though 10 codes have changed over time on certain codes? Idk

[SteveShannon]

30 minutes ago, WRVG593 said:

We both have a copy of the codes and no one knows what the codes mean except us, is that allowed?

Prohibited GMRS Uses:

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

 

It's very clear.  "No one knows what the codes mean except us" literally means "Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings."

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, WRVG593 said:

Well that's a B Buster. I wonder why 10 codes were permissible and others weren't, even though 10 codes have changed over time on certain codes? Idk

Because 10 codes are in common usage and don't hide meaning.

[marcspaz]

As others have mentioned, codes, hidden messages and transmitting a false or deceptive communication are all rule violations.

 

I think 10-codes are allowed because they are so heavily used, documented and well known that it's not really considered code, but more like shorthand for voice.

[wrci350]

1 hour ago, WRVG593 said:

I know how tones work. By 'drowning out others' I meant I don't hear them. I know people with no tone can hear what I say, and those with the same tone as well. With 10 codes... it says they are permissible? As in 10 codes such as 10-4(understood) are allowed?

No need to be defensive ... many posters don't understand that "privacy" codes give you no privacy.  Obviously you understand that.

As far as 10 codes go, as others have said, think of those as verbal shorthand.  The idea is that everyone on the channel understands what they mean.  "10-4" is a great example.

[nokones]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

As others have mentioned, codes, hidden messages and transmitting a false or deceptive communication are all rule violations.

 

I think 10-codes are allowed because they are so heavily used, documented and well known that it's not really considered code, but more like shorthand for voice.

a.k.a. - Brevity Codes.

[KAF6045]

2 hours ago, WRVG593 said:

So 10 codes ARE allowed but others are not? As in I cannot make my own code? Thats at least what I obtained from that. 

10-codes (both CB and Law Enforcement variations) are commonly available in printed form, everyone can access the list(s); they are not considered a means of "obscuring" communications but are a means of /shortening/ the time spent in communications and providing a concise /clear/ meaning (especially when one has an atrocious accent and spoken English may be misunderstood). Not that English is mandated either -- I believe only the call sign ID needs to be in English or recognized phonetic alphabet (so keep your "zed" down under ).

 

[MarkInTampa]

Would what I call "trade speak" be considered coded illegal communication? Example, if I call out to my buddy Joe and ask if he has any "Red Raychem's" would that be considered coded? Most folks wouldn't have a clue I just asked Joe for Raychem (manufacture) F-81 RG58 (come in a red clip, RG59 come in blue) connectors. I could see how the phrase "Red Raychem" could refer to lots of things, possibly even drugs, if you were not in the trade and even then only if you use Raychem products. Just wondering...

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, markskjerve said:

Would what I call "trade speak" be considered coded illegal communication? Example, if I call out to my buddy Joe and ask if he has any "Red Raychem's" would that be considered coded? Most folks wouldn't have a clue I just asked Joe for Raychem (manufacture) F-81 RG58 (come in a red clip, RG59 come in blue) connectors. I could see how the phrase "Red Raychem" could refer to lots of things, possibly even drugs, if you were not in the trade and even then only if you use Raychem products. Just wondering...

No

[zzz]

16 hours ago, JoCoBrian said:

Based on this section of Part 95....it seems like no.  

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

(1) Messages in connection with any activity which is against Federal, State, or local law;

(2) False or deceptive messages;

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

(4) Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain;

(5) Advertisements or offers for the sale of goods or services;

(6) Advertisements for a political candidate or political campaign (messages about the campaign business may be communicated);

(7) International distress signals, such as the word “Mayday” (except when on a ship, aircraft or other vehicle in immediate danger to ask for help);

(8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station;

(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station;

(10) Continuous or uninterrupted transmissions, except for communications involving the immediate safety of life or property; and

(11) Messages for public address systems.

(12) The provision of § 95.333 apply, however, if the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary.

"(4) Music, whistling, sound effects or material to amuse or entertain"

 

Does that mean if the roger beeps entertains me, it is against the rules?

[nokones]

Part 95 defines plain language communications as:

"Voice communications without codes or coded messages intended to provide a hidden meaning. Foreign languages and commonly known radio operating words and phrases, such as “ten four” and “roger,” not intended to provide a hidden meaning, are not considered codes or coded messages."

Non-english languages on the airwaves are legal now. Years ago, only English was allowed.

 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, nokones said:

Part 95 defines plain language communications as:

"Voice communications without codes or coded messages intended to provide a hidden meaning. Foreign languages and commonly known radio operating words and phrases, such as “ten four” and “roger,” not intended to provide a hidden meaning, are not considered codes or coded messages."

Non-english languages on the airwaves are legal now. Years ago, only English was allowed.

 

 

The only language restrictions I am aware of were on Amateur radio, which were lifted 17 years ago (2006).  Looking at the old GMRS rules and the LMRS rules, there have never been spoken language restrictions that I can find.

There has been a long-standing expectation that GMRS and LMRS operators in the United States use clear and concise language to promote effective communication and prevent interference. In the past, this expectation has been interpreted by some as a requirement to use English, but I believe this was never an official rule or regulation.  If anyone has a link to the government website with the previous rule stating English only, I am open to correction, if I am mistaken.

[Radioguy7268]

Meh.  You can talk in "code" all day long. If I say I'm 10-365  WTH does that mean? Am I legal because I used a 10 code?  Even 10-100 has different meanings to different people. Personally, I think I'm 10-733.

A majority of my GMRS voice communication is done in a non-English language, and even when we do speak English, there's enough accents and non-English words thrown in that most folks would still not understand what we are talking about. I happen to like it that way.

Now, get off my Lawn & quit using my repeater to speak dat for-ain language.

 

[marcspaz]

@Radioguy7268  to restate the obvious, is a rule unenforced, really a rule at all?

[Radioguy7268]

I guess I believe that un-enforced rules are more like Suggestions.  Given the history of the FCC retro-actively re-writing the rules to allow what people were doing anyway (everything from unlicensed CB to unlicensed MURS),  I think it's just a matter of time until the FCC catches up to reality.

[WRVG593]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:40 PM, Radioguy7268 said:

Meh.  You can talk in "code" all day long. If I say I'm 10-365  WTH does that mean? Am I legal because I used a 10 code?  Even 10-100 has different meanings to different people. Personally, I think I'm 10-733.

A majority of my GMRS voice communication is done in a non-English language, and even when we do speak English, there's enough accents and non-English words thrown in that most folks would still not understand what we are talking about. I happen to like it that way.

Now, get off my Lawn & quit using my repeater to speak dat for-ain language.

 

So in other words, even though you may not support doing it, you don't see any issues arising from it. If I add a 10 to it, it may provide reasonable totality of circumstances for me to use it. 

[sjmahler]

Around here you could ask a LEO for a 10-21 and a Firefighter for a 10-21 ... one would call you, the other bring you a 2 1/2 inch hose.   QSL?

[Radioguy7268]

That's kind of my point. There's no FCC published official version of what their proposed 10 code shorthand might mean, so it's up to interpretation. Whose interpretation?