What can I expect from a 50 watt radio over and above an HT for base station?

[WRYZ926]

16 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

After studying some (very little) antenna theory i'm finding that antenna take off angle has a lot do do with  how far and how well it can transmit/receive. The current Laird i use for base has a sharp low angle take off angle and I learned is meant for mountain top applications not 40' above your home.

This is also true. And the same goes for mobile antennas too. A 9 dBd antenna will work better in a more wide open and flat area where a 4-6 dBd antenna will work better in hilly/mountainous areas. The higher the gain is, the flatter the radiation pattern is.

The simplest way to explain the effects of gain is to use a beach ball. Lower dBd will have a more rounded radian pattern. The higher the gain is, the flatter the pattern will be. Yes you can get out farther with 9 dBd of gain but the pattern will be narrow compared to 4 - 6 dBd. The advantage of lower gain is the pattern is more spread out and has a chance to get around some obstacles.

11 hours ago, marcspaz said:

Increasing the transmit power of a UHF radio signal does not directly affect its ability to refract, diffract or scatter beyond the horizon.  Though, it increases the PPM of photons that are refracted, diffracted or scattered, increasing the ability for receivers to pull the signal.

In my case, I was getting into that repeater 50-55 miles away with 20 watts. But other people had a hard time hearing me due to noise on my signal. Switching over to my 50 watt radio made the difference and everyone could hear me clearly.  I have another repeater the same distance away in the opposite direction that I can hardly hear let alone get into. The difference is the height of the two repeater antennas and the terrain in-between us. 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

At the end of the day, more power does help.  Thank-you   

 

Well, no and yes.  It depends on the situation.  I think I may not be as clear as I could be. 

 

More power does not help, in and of itself.  Other conditions must be in place in order for the addition of power to improve ground range beyond the RF horizon. 

 

If there are no refraction anomalies in the atmosphere, objects causing scatter, or objects that cause diffraction, there is no amount of extra power to help reach beyond the RF LOS.  That is why I said transmit power does not fundamentally change the propagation mechanics of UHF waves.  If the special propagation conditions don't exist between the stations trying to communicate, you are going to be restricted to LOS regardless of if you are using 5w or 5,000w.

 

If you increase your transmitter power while the frequency remains the same, the number of photons emitted per second increases proportionally.  If anomalies are present and a very small number of photons are being refracted, scattered, or diffracted beyond the radio horizon, increasing power increases the total number of photons being refracted, scattered, or diffracted, improving the photon density (part per million) which gives the receiver more information to work with.

 

So, again, if the signal is being refracted, scattered, or diffracted due to anomalies, increasing power helps.  In the absence of those anomalies, no amount of power will improve or extend your radio horizon. 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, WRYZ926 said:

In my case, I was getting into that repeater 50-55 miles away with 20 watts. But other people had a hard time hearing me due to noise on my signal. Switching over to my 50 watt radio made the difference and everyone could hear me clearly.  I have another repeater the same distance away in the opposite direction that I can hardly hear let alone get into. The difference is the height of the two repeater antennas and the terrain in-between us. 

 

Sure... that makes sense.  The propagation was already working in your favor.  Increasing your transmit power should help.  Just keep in mind that you need to increase your power 4x (6 dB gain) to get a noticeable improvement at the receiver. 

[WRYZ926]

Yes the general rule of thumb is to quadruple your power in order to make a noticeable difference. But just doubling the power output can sometimes make a difference.

For the OP, he would be quadrupling his power output going from a 5 watt radio to a 20 watt radio the using a base antenna with both radios. He will definitely notice a difference going from 5 watts to 50 watts.

I know HF is a different animal compared to UHF. With HF you really don't notice a difference until you quadruple your power say going from 100 watts to 400 watts. Most won't notice a difference on SSB going from 100 watts to 200 watts.

[marcspaz]

4 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

I know HF is a different animal compared to UHF. With HF you really don't notice a difference until you quadruple your power say going from 100 watts to 400 watts. Most won't notice a difference on SSB going from 100 watts to 200 watts.

 

HF is definitely odd.  Sometimes I will increase my power from 100w to 750w-800w before signal reports improve.  Then again, depending on who I am talking to, everyone is a 5 9 anyway. LOL

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

HF is definitely odd.  Sometimes I will increase my power from 100w to 750w-800w before signal reports improve.  Then again, depending on who I am talking to, everyone is a 5 9 anyway. LOL

Exactly!  
I’m sorry, I didn’t get your call sign, can you repeat again? And you’re a 59 into Butte!

 

[SteveShannon]

Where more power really helps is in signal to noise ratio.

[marcspaz]

8 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Where more power really helps is in signal to noise ratio.

 

No doubt. Especially when the receiver has a good processor in it, it won't take much.

[AdmiralCochrane]

Switching to lower power and not getting in to a station that receives you on high power is most likely because their squelch was turned up too high. The signal is most likely still there, just below the squelch level setting. 

As Steve said, in the fringes, more power brings you up out of the noise.  1 thru 10 notches in software is harder to change than the old analog knobs we had on our CB's.  Some radios have a preprogrammed button to turn off squelch (I think many of them are labeled "monitor").  Other radios will require you to assign the function to a button.  You should always use this function when doing tests as described in my first sentence.

[WRUE951]

On 12/30/2024 at 7:22 AM, SteveShannon said:

Does that Laird have phased collinear elements to cause it to propagate more powerfully below horizontal? 

HF operators frequently have an issue when they mount an antenna too near to the ground (the recommended height is greater than or equal to one half wavelength) and as a result their propagation pattern is deformed to mostly skyward.  That’s especially common with longer wavelengths; it’s difficult to mount a 160 meter wire antenna 266 feet above the ground.

not much to find on the FG4607.  Gigaparts sent me this.  They said the antenna works great at high elevation.  Apparently the Hustler has a wider and lower elevated pattern..   I ended up ordering another Hustler on a christmas deal..  Going back to what worked good for me   

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

not much to find on the FG4607.  Gigaparts sent me this.  They said the antenna works great at high elevation.  Apparently the Hustler has a wider and lower elevated pattern..   I ended up ordering another Hustler on a christmas deal..  Going back to what worked good for me   

I can see how that would be a lousy antenna close in but different elevations.  That’s the problem with high gain antennas at any angle other than the main lobe. Going back to what has worked in the past makes perfect sense.