My repeater is getting hammered - HELP!!

[Cactusboy19]

My repeater is getting hammered by some bubble pack kids. They are on the same frequency (GMRS17), but not the correct tones. So its just constantly keying up the radio. Every once in a while their voice bleeds through.

Is there anything I can do to mitigate this issue? Would upping the squelch on the receive side of my repeater help at all?

I am loosing my mind here.

[Cactusboy19]

I am hearing the tone from the repeater. I have a double beep at the end of every repeater transmission. That's how I know its getting keyed up.

No voice just "mic clicks" 

[Cactusboy19]

This repeater has been up for years operating on this freq and DCS tones, just recently some bunle pack kids are keying it up. They must be close enough to trigger the repeater, but since they don't have the correct tones, there is no voice. but its enough to key it up.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, WRXE944 said:

Bubble packs do not have the ability to transmit on 4-6-SEVEN.600 (the repeater input frequency); only 4-6-TWO.600 ( the repeater output frequency)

Someone with an GMRS radio is doing the damage

... and with the right tone. Otherwise the repeater should not start transmitting...

[WRUU653]

I’m curious with your HT near the repeater and in reverse, receive on 467.600 if you also hear the key ups. I’m wondering if this might narrow down the source. Is it possible there is an issue with the duplexer.  Just spitballing here. 

[Guest]

Trouble shooting steps that might make sense.

First - reset - "have you tried turning it off and on again?" - not a joke just a good first step.

The goal is to make sure that there is nothing wrong on your end and then to find out the who and why of the trouble.

If troubles persist:

• Change tone (RX) - the troublemaker might "follow" your changes or simple drop out (in case this is not malicious)
• Fox Hunt - see @WRUU653 's comment

More Spitballs to come

 

[back4more70]

1 hour ago, Cactusboy19 said:

My repeater is getting hammered

Your repeater needs an intervention.

[nokones]

What are you using for a repeater and duplexer? Do you reside in an high RF area in a very large city? Are you sure it is not intermod related?

[SteveShannon]

6 hours ago, WRXE944 said:

Or someone with an GMRS radio with the correct tone is opening the squelch, allowing the audio from the bubble wraps on the output frequency to also get in. 

How does that work?  If the input of the repeater is 467.xxx and the output frequency is 462.xxx, how does a GMRS radio with the right tone “allow the audio from the bubble wraps on the output frequency to also get in?”

[ULTRA2]

It's happening to me also. On GMRS 22 (.725). On Tuesday nights we will have a net here and the unknown station will key up and start interfering with the rollcall.

On several occasions the person/persons will dead keys for the duration of the net, and I hear their carrier over the station trying to check in.

 

I got to a point where I actually told the station where I was and when I did the station stopped transmitting. Apparently, the person listening lived near me, I did see some kids with radios in hand was running into a house across the street. Now that I know who's throwing dead carriers I know where to look. 

[WRQI583]

If it is bubble pack radios, you are hearing them on the output. There is unfortunately nothing you can do because the bubble pack radios use the same tones (PL and DCS) that GMRS users can use. What you are experiencing is what they call in Ham Radio, The Barn Door Effect. Hams get it on repeaters during times of tropospheric ducting where other distant stations, many times repeaters on the same frequency you are listening on but with a different tone will come into the radio. Because they are running a different tone, it takes the receive of either your radio or the repeater to open up and, like a barn door, allow all signals to come in regardless of their tone. I had a similar thing happen with a kid in my neighborhood that was using an FRS radio and he would come across the radio and interfere with my wife and I. I finally set a PL tone but the kid got the bright idea to play his musical keyboard over the radio. The tones he hit with many of the keys tricked the radio into thinking that the correct PL tones were being used and it would intermittently open our radios with this annoying tone and his voice singing. So, we switched to DCS tones and that helped, but when we got done talking, like a barn door, the receive opened back up and let him through. But at least we could set out radios down and not worry about his keyboard opening up our receive. But when it comes to your repeater, it isn't the repeater getting hammered, its your radio, and depending on what your terrain is like, they might be close to you, or possibly a good distance from you (up to 20 miles).

[SteveShannon]

38 minutes ago, WRXE944 said:

 

Here is how that works:

The OP is listening to the output of his repeater on 462.600.

Kids are using their bubble pack radios to transmit on the same output: 462.600 while simultaneously someone with a GMRS radio programmed to the Repeater Channel 462.600, transmits with the proper tone on 467.600.

This opens the squelch on the Repeater and now the FM "Capture" effects takes over.

The OP will hear the strongest signal which is most likely the output of his Repeater with "Every once in a while their [bubble pack radios] voice bleeds through."

So the GMRS radio keys up the repeater.  The repeater transmits the tone which opens the squelch on the OP’s radio while the kids with the FRS radios are transmitting on the same output frequency as the repeater.  This lets the OP hear the FRS transmissions. That’s the barn door effect @WQRQI583 described.  I agree, that’s very possible. To my sleep deprived mind it sounded like you were saying the bubble pack transmissions were coming through the repeater, which didn’t make sense to me.

 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Cactusboy19 said:

My repeater is getting hammered by some bubble pack kids. They are on the same frequency (GMRS17), but not the correct tones. So its just constantly keying up the radio. Every once in a while their voice bleeds through.

Is there anything I can do to mitigate this issue? Would upping the squelch on the receive side of my repeater help at all?

I am loosing my mind here.

Barndoor seems to be a minor of the OP's concerns - "Every once in a while their voice bleeds through."

"So its just constantly keying up the radio" - @Cactusboy19 can you help out by clarifying what "radio" you are refereing to?

19 hours ago, Cactusboy19 said:

I am hearing the tone from the repeater. I have a double beep at the end of every repeater transmission. That's how I know its getting keyed up.

No voice just "mic clicks" 

That sounds like someone who made the effort to program the radio to the repeater, opens the repeater, but does not talk ...

If that is the case, and that user is opening the Barndoor, it would be nice to know why there is no voice coming (technical difficulties, shyness, or that special kind of "bored" [you-know-what])

BTW. If those kids are close enough to bleed into your receive, there is not really anything that you can do other to ask them to consider a different channel ... BUT there is an easy way to conform that they are just bleeding in - open your radio's squelch to the point where you do not need the "barndoor" to open but you can hear them directly (just to verify parts of the theory). - not the priority but easy to investigate - again, the  "Every once in a while their voice bleeds through." part seems to be minor compared to the key-up issue ...

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WRXE944 said:

It is a common misconception that "privacy tones" mean that your radio programmed with a tone on receive will ONLY hear those transmissions that are both on the receiving frequency AND have that tone.  

   ... I wonder if Motorola's and the other player's advertisement has anything to do with this misconception ... ?!?   

... Tone Squelch is just not rolling of the tongue and "privacy tone" is also much cooler 

 

"With 22 channels and 121 privacy codes, totaling 2,662 combinations, it's easy to find an available channel" - Talkabout T465 listing on homedepot.com - the same place that brings you the ultimate wisdom: "Radio consumes less power during its idle condition" ... ... planning to print t-shirts with this one 

[SteveShannon]

6 hours ago, WRXE944 said:

Or chat with their parents...

For what?  If they’re using FRS radios they’re well within the rules. It’s not their fault that the FCC put FRS radios on the same frequencies as GMRS radios. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

For what?  If they’re using FRS radios they’re well within the rules. It’s not their fault that the FCC put FRS radios on the same frequencies as GMRS radios. 

Well, you know that the educator in me is assuming that there is no malicious intention in the usage of the specific channel but rather the lack of awareness and knowledge => education 

Oh, how perfect is my world !!! 

 

[Cactusboy19]

I have DCS (different for TX and RX) tones and have had them for many years now on this repeater. My guess is that these kids are close enough to bleed into the RX side of my repeater to key it up.

Not much I can really do about that other than try to track them down.

 

Just like someone said earlier, just because you have tones doesn't mean you cant walk on a frequency and interfere with it.

[Cactusboy19]

The fact that I am hearing the transmit tone from the repeater, leads me to believe they are close enough to key the RX side of the repeater. Tones or no tones, if you are close enough this is possible.
It has been quite today though. They must be at home playing video games or staring at their phones....

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, Cactusboy19 said:

The fact that I am hearing the transmit tone from the repeater, leads me to believe they are close enough to key the RX side of the repeater. Tones or no tones, if you are close enough this is possible.
It has been quite today though. They must be at home playing video games or staring at their phones....

How does a 2 watt FRS radio “key the RX side of the repeater?” It’s transmitting a full 5MHz off.  Your duplexer should be filtering out any transmissions in the 462 range; after all it has to filter out the TX side of the repeater. 
I’m more inclined towards the barndoor theory. 

[Cactusboy19]

1 minute ago, Sshannon said:

How does a 2 watt FRS radio “key the RX side of the repeater?” It’s transmitting a full 5MHz off.  Your duplexer should be filtering out any transmissions in the 462 range; after all it has to filter out the TX side of the repeater. 
I’m more inclined towards the barndoor theory. 

Yeh, not sure what's happening. All I know is its very annoying...

[SteveShannon]

18 minutes ago, Cactusboy19 said:

Yeh, not sure what's happening. All I know is its very annoying...

It’s certainly possible that the kids are playing with GMRS radios or open ham handhelds that can transmit on the repeater input. Still they shouldn’t get through the DCS. 

[nokones]

I'm kinda puzzled and finding it difficult that a FRS radio is the culprit even near by affecting your repeater. Is your repeater receiver that loose to allow a FRS transmitting on 467.6125 or 467.5875 narrowband 2.5 KHz/12.5 KHz channel with the same PL/DCS with a RF output of only a half watt  really interfering with your repeater? I don't think so unless your receiver is really loose and out of spec.

I tried to duplicate that with a FRS radio on channels 9 and 10 using the appropriate tone for my repeater and a CCR mobile I unfortunately own and I even placed the FRS radio up against the antenna of the receiving CCR mobile radio and there was no indication of any interference.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, WRXE944 said:

I am sure this is not the problem, but for the record, the only FRS radios that I am aware can be made to transmit with a +5 MHz offset is the Pofung BF-T11 through the use of their CPS programming software.

Tricky topic !

FRS radios must not be reprogrammed in a manner that is outside of the FRS framework - once one uses any software to alter the programming in such matter, the radio is no longer a FRS radio:

§ 95.561 FRS transmitter certification.

(a) Each FRS unit (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the FRS) must be certficated for use in the FRS in accordance with this subpart and subpart J of part 2 of this chapter.

(b) A grant of equipment certification for the FRS will not be issued for any FRS transmitter type that fails to comply with all of the applicable rules in this subpart.

(c) A grant of equipment certification will not be issued for hand-held portable radio units capable of operating under both this subpart (FRS) and under any other subparts of this chapter (except part 15) if the application for such grant is filed on or after December 27, 2017.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.561

However, amazon is selling all kinds of radios that could use any GMRS / FRS frequency with any offset or tone or "roger beep" () and the software to alter any of those is linked in the product listing /description.... 

 

Are you starting to look into a rabbit hole ?!?

... If you are thinking in the direction that I am afraid you might be: Please consider the next steps!

In your situation, curtesy and friendly coexistence is the only way out of your troubles.

If you are talking to families and you are foregrounding (or even mentioning) "the law" they will react to that thread and no longer see / hear your request as anything but a thread - game on.

Decades of people jamming on all services have taught one thing:

Unless you are a government agency and you experience jamming on your frequency and you are willing to use your weight (and as such an agency you always are), it's going to get ugly and nobody will get to use the frequencies for a long time !

 

 

[ULTRA2]

2 hours ago, Cactusboy19 said:

I have DCS (different for TX and RX) tones and have had them for many years now on this repeater. My guess is that these kids are close enough to bleed into the RX side of my repeater to key it up.

Not much I can really do about that other than try to track them down.

 

Just like someone said earlier, just because you have tones doesn't mean you cant walk on a frequency and interfere with it.

When I heard that the FCC was going to let FRS share the frequency with GMRS I wasn't happy with the Idea of channel sharing, but I decided what's done is done until the FCC approved the power change from 1/2 watt to 2 watts. I didn't understand the reasoning for that, and I knew when they did that all heck would break loose and here it is. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by ULTRA2
Grammer correction

[KAF6045]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:02 PM, ULTRA2 said:

When I heard that the FCC was going to let FRS share the frequency with GMRS I wasn't happy with the Idea of channel sharing, but I decided what's done is done until the FCC approved the power change from 1/2 watt to 2 watts. I didn't understand the reasoning for that, and I knew when they did that all heck would break loose and here it is. 

The reason was to reclassify the former (pre-2017) FRS/GMRS bubble pack radios. Those radios already transmitted up to 2W on 15-22 (and maybe 1-7). The alternative was to outright ban all FRS radios and strike the category from the regulations.

In 2017: <2W on 1-7/15-22, fixed antenna, and <0.5W on 8-14 IS NOW FRS. Greater than 2W on 1-7/15-22 OR repeater capability is now GMRS.