Ham UHF vs GMRS

[Tiercel]

I am interested in your input.

I have completed my technical course and am about halfway thru my General course.  I test in late NOV.

Until I take my test, I am playing with some decent GMRS HTs, including a mobile antenna and mic.  They have been fun, and my wife and son can use them for routine communication and in case of real emergencies such as grid failure.

Since it seems that no one mobile transceiver will cover both HF and UHF it has me wondering what band of Ham unit I would get.  It seems to me that long-range HF is the fun stuff of Ham radio.  I am having trouble seeing what Ham UHF, has over GMRS.  Oviously GMRS has the advantage of talking with my family on outings, emergencies, and just routinely.  It seems to have similar range in HTs and mobile units.

[WRQC527]

In my humble opinion, it's not an issue of ham vs GMRS. Or what ham has over GMRS. There are advantages to both. GMRS doesn't require a test, just your $35 and a promise to obey the FCC rules. And the license covers family members, up to a point. But the frequencies are limited, and channelized. Ham radio requires a test, the same $35, and only covers one person. There are many more frequencies available with UHF ham radio. Both ham and GMRS can operate simplex or through repeaters. You'll probably find more repeaters on ham radio. I use both, since I have ham radio friends who communicate with me, and I use GMRS to communicate with my non-ham wife through a repeater if I'm out somewhere with no cell coverage. My suggestion is to use both and don't fall into the "one is better than the other" trap.

Also, there are a few mobile ham transceivers out there that do HF, VHF and UHF. They're not cheap, and you may end up rolling the dice in the used market to find them. The Icom IC-706MkIIG, IC-7000 and IC-7100, the Yaesu FT-857, and others.

[WRUU653]

30 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

My suggestion is to use both and don't fall into the "one is better than the other" trap.

This ^^^!!!  

[kidphc]

This ^^^!!!  

Not really better. But amateur uhf does offer some advantaged gmrs can't.

- majority of digital repeaters are on 70cm
- the ability to crossband repeat with our mobile radios between 2m/70cm
- unlink/down link for duplex satellite coms
- secondary aprs frequency (not many 70cm digipeaters near me though.)

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[WRUI365]

I am a licensed general class ham as well as a gmrs license holder. Both services have there ups and downs. Can't compare because they are really 2 different beast. I use one to accent the other because there are times when I need to. Trust me when I say you can make both cost as little as you want to the extremes. That all depends on how much you want to put down on equipment. For example I have P25, DMR, DSTAR, and YSF. have part 90, 95 and 97 equipment. It all comes down to how you want to spend your time doing things and tinkering.

[WRXB215]

With ham you can use more power. When you are trying to penetrate through the trees extra power can help.

[Lscott]

6 hours ago, kidphc said:

majority of digital repeaters are on 70cm

That’s a major point for Ham. There are very few digital mode repeaters on VHF. I have radios in my collection for both VHF and UHF, with far more units of the UHF band type for the above reason.

[Lscott]

5 hours ago, WRUI365 said:

For example I have P25, DMR, DSTAR, and YSF.

You have any NXDN radios? 

[WRUU653]

Ham offers more frequencies, more options to explore as a hobby, more repeater coverage, while GMRS offers ease of use with family and friends that have no interest in radios other than to communicate. One may help you get assistance where there is no cell coverage while the other may help you spot that tire placement off road or keep you in touch with your wife at camp while you paddle a kayak around the lake. Is one better? Sure the one you need to do the thing you want in the moment. I fully am in favor of both. 

[back4more70]

1 hour ago, WRUU653 said:

Is one better? Sure the one you need to do the thing you want in the moment.

Applies to MURS, FRS, GMRS, HF, UHF, VHF, ... 

[marcspaz]

First, depending on how much real estate you have in your vehicle or home, I always recommend having it all.l  I have HF, Ham VHF/UHF, and GMRS in my home and in my Jeep.

 

Don't think of it as better or worse. Just different. What differences serve a purpose for you at any given moment is the right answer. 

[radiozip]

6 hours ago, Lscott said:

That’s a major point for Ham. There are very few digital mode repeaters on VHF. I have radios in my collection for both VHF and UHF, with far more units of the UHF band type for the above reason.

VHF can do digital modes just like UHF, most clubs just opt to keep their VHF repeaters analog. UHF (ham) repeaters tend to get used less so the "experimental" digital modes get put there to boost activity.

[Tiercel]

Thanks for all the replies.  I got from the responses that everyone thinks it is a "both" and not a "this-or-that" matter.  I understand:

Don't take this wrong.  I am not knocking Ham.  I am just not seeing an answer for the advantages of a  Ham HT or mobile over a GMRS HT and mobile.

1.  The difference in licensing since I have a GMRS license and am well into studying for my Ham license.
2.  I also understand the far greater number of repeaters with Ham.   In PA, the difference is between 60 vs 750, but I do have both near where I live.

Most of the other stuff was Greek to me.  It sounds like it would take several Ham HTs just to cover the VHF and UHF bands.  Also, I don't think I get the value of "more frequencies to explore if they are all relatively short distances, high-frequency bands residing fairly close to GMRS frequencies and behaving in much the same way.  I get the added attraction of the HF section, which acts like an entirely different animal.  I would not consider it much of a benefit if GMRS suddenly had twice as many channels that all do the same thing as the other channels in that band, so maybe I am missing something.

From the outside looking in, it seems that amateur radio's two biggest attractions, other than CW code, are:
1.  Long distant connections with exotic places over HF
2.  Clear VHF and UHF communications without needing a large antenna, much like GMRS.   It seems the number of frequencies in those bands is not too relevant unless they all tend to be busy.  It is my understanding that they are not very busy.

Am I missing something?  If all your friends moved to GMRS, would you be satisfied with GMRS, and if not, specifically, why not?

In response to WRXB215, I will likely NEVER buy a Ham base.  I will get a Ham HT and a mobile that I will probably use as a base and mobile.  It seems to me that there is no real power difference between Ham and GMRS in HTs (4-8 watts and Mobile units (50 watts).  So, power is not a consideration.

I am also totally lost on digital.  What makes it appealing?  Is it mostly voice communication or control over lans/wans?

 

[WRUU653]

27 minutes ago, Tiercel said:

It sounds like it would take several Ham HTs just to cover the VHF and UHF bands

At least in my area most ham repeater traffic is 70cm or 2m which there are countless duel band radios. One is exactly like the GMRS radio you have already. 

The ability to hit a simulcast repeater system that pretty much covers most of the county including areas that dont have cell or GMRS is a big plus for me. One reason I got my Ham license was because I was limited in my reach with GMRS when it came to hiking or rural offroad areas near me. One such area was just asked about in another thread. There's no GMRS repeater reaching out there but on Ham it's as good as at home. All that said I started with GMRS and see value in both and would recommend spending some time with it first. Get to know your area, maybe set some local ham repeaters in your GMRS radios to listen to and see if you find benefit in Ham down the road a bit. You will be the best judge of what you want. Mostly you don't have to do it all or do it all at once. 

As for HF, I haven't indulged as of yet but I keep hearing how 10 meters is going crazy right now... crap another radio purchase awaits. 

[marcspaz]

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

Don't take this wrong.  I am not knocking Ham.  I am just not seeing an answer for the advantages of a  Ham HT or mobile over a GMRS HT and mobile.

 

The problem is, an advantage or disadvantage is a matter of perception based on what you want to accomplish.  I can point out differences that push me in one direction or another.  This is just really high view... and just the stuff I use.  I am very sure there is more.

In Ham bands:

Max power is 1,500 Watts.

There is a frequency space equivalent of 1,200 channels.

Any mode of digital voice.

Any mode of digital data (no encryption).

Automatic Packet Reporting System (APRS) global positioning, messaging and more.

50w portable/mobile repeaters for under $300.

Crossband repeat support.

One radio will cover some of MF, all of HF, 6 meter VHF, 2 meter VHF, 70 cm UHF, all modes, at 100w for $1,000.

Much more repeater coverage, including on HF and state-wide networks in many states.

A much wider selection of hardware, including the option to build your own gear.

Experimentation is encouraged.

 

In GMRS:

Much quieter / less users.

Repeaters are available.

Ease of licensing.

Shared Licensing.

Extremely affordable radios (as little as $9 each)

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

It sounds like it would take several Ham HTs just to cover the VHF and UHF bands. 

Not at all.  I have several handheld radios for redundancy (EmComm), but all of them cover everything from air traffic, MURS, VHF Business band, Marine, Amater 2m VHF, Amateur 70cm UHF, Business band UHF, GMRS/FRS and more.

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

Also, I don't think I get the value of "more frequencies to explore if they are all relatively short distances, high-frequency bands residing fairly close to GMRS frequencies and behaving in much the same way.

 

As I mentioned, in populated areas, with the option of the equivalent 1,200 channels compared to GMRS' only having 22 channels, you can always find a clear frequency to talk, send data, or whatever you plan on doing.  And did I mention 1,500 watts on Ham for the opportunity to talk way further than you ever could with GMRS?

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

I get the added attraction of the HF section, which acts like an entirely different animal.  I would not consider it much of a benefit if GMRS suddenly had twice as many channels that all do the same thing as the other channels in that band, so maybe I am missing something.

HF gives you the option of communicating from 0 to 12,450 miles with just a few watts.  If people go in the habit of it, there would be almost no practical reason to use anything but HF, beyond the data speed advantages of VHF and UHF on digital applications.

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

From the outside looking in, it seems that amateur radio's two biggest attractions, other than CW code, are:
1.  Long distant connections with exotic places over HF
2.  Clear VHF and UHF communications without needing a large antenna, much like GMRS.   It seems the number of frequencies in those bands is not too relevant unless they all tend to be busy.  It is my understanding that they are not very busy.

 

You can do CW on GMRS.  It is an authorized mode.  I don't know anyone who does it because its considered a weak signal application.

I did list a few more advantages above.

I'm not sure what you consider a large antenna, but I have a 4 foot tunable HF antenna and I have talked to people in every state in the US as well as 102 other countries.  Granted, a 7 inch antenna is definitely shorter than 4 feet, but 4 feet is hardly a hateful size.

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

Am I missing something?  If all your friends moved to GMRS, would you be satisfied with GMRS, and if not, specifically, why not?

 

All of my radio friends are on GMRS, but that doesn't mean anything.  An overwhelming majority of my radio friends are also into amateur radio because GMRS just can't offer everything that we want to do.  We all do a lot of digital data and voice (such as email and computer networking over RF), EmComm support requiring much more power and portable repeaters, as well as the ability to talk long distance (like outside of the area if affected by natural disaster) without relying on anything but someone else with a radio on the other end... and much more.

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

In response to WRXB215, I will likely NEVER buy a Ham base.  I will get a Ham HT and a mobile that I will probably use as a base and mobile.  It seems to me that there is no real power difference between Ham and GMRS in HTs (4-8 watts and Mobile units (50 watts).  So, power is not a consideration.

 

Honestly, I have a nice HF base station, massive amp and antenna.  Same for UHF and VHF.  I hardly ever turn them on.  Most of my HF, VHF and UHF use is from the mobile.  However, having the base station is nice if I do need to do EmComm or just don't feel like sitting in my truck to run a radio.

I guess, the bottom line is, don't feel like you are missing something if you don't have a base station.  You're not.

One of the biggest things I love about Ham radio is, I can make my handheld seem like its a lot stronger that 5 or 8 watts.  I have a mobile repeater installed in my Jeep.  I don't need to have a ton of power in my handheld, because my portable/mobile repeater will transmit my handheld signal at whatever power I want, up to 1,500 watts.  So, my HT never has to talk any further than wherever I parked my Jeep.

As far as mobile power goes, 50w is kind of the standard, but it's not the limit.  I have a collection of radios with all different output levels... 35w, 50w, 65w, 85w, 120w. I also have 200w and 300w amps... and 1,500w amps are available.

  

6 hours ago, Tiercel said:

I am also totally lost on digital.  What makes it appealing?  Is it mostly voice communication or control over lans/wans?

 

There is no limit to digital.  You can do voice, data like emails, video, file transfer, GPS, messaging, even things like chat consoles... you are limited by nothing but your imagination.  The big draw about digital in general is, many digital services are called "weak signal services".  Basically, what this means is, if you are on a frequency that zero voice can be heard... the digital connection can still be made on the exact same frequency and power level.  So, in an emergency or extreme boredom, you are going to get you communications accomplished.

 

I hope this help provide some insight. 

[SteveShannon]

As Marc said the advantage is in the eyes of the beholder. 
If I just want to talk to my non-ham friends without getting all excited about the technology I’ll use GMRS. 

But if I want to learn about radio technology with fewer limitations, I’ll use ham radio. 

[Tiercel]

Thanks again for the effort to educate me.  I wish I could meet a ham and talk in person.  This club only meets every other month, so my first possible meeting will be late Nov, about the time I take the test.  I guess I can just be patient to get any ham equipment.   I never thought about the option to boost your signal from a mobile with your own onboard repeater.  

I don't consider a 4-foot antenna huge.  I have been looking at dipole antennas for HF 

I have a professional background (although dated) in computers and networking.  I cannot even visualize using a ham transceiver for emails, video, file transfer, GPS???  I really need to find a ham so I can have a voice conversation.  I am going to program every ham repeater within range into my HT.

[axorlov]

1 hour ago, Tiercel said:

I cannot even visualize using a ham transceiver for emails, video, file transfer, GPS???

Emails: Yes, look up Winlink.
File transfer: Yes, via aforementioned Winlink. There are other ways much less robust and reliable. On HF is limited by 300 baud by government decree. Much faster on VHF/UHF.
GPS: Yes, there is a system called APRS, allowing tracking, weather reports and short message exchange. It even allows text exchange between cell phone and APRS-enabled radio. Not very reliable, but works. Depends on the infrastructure: the whole bunch of things called "digipeaters". They are deployed in populated areas, where you normally have cell connection. However, where I live, we often have digipeaters available where there is no cell service. I'm an active user of APRS, but it has it's serious limitations.
Video: It is not going to be 1080p x 60fps because there are some laws of physics that limit the bandwidth. Look up Slow Scan TV. Resolution is ridiculous, frame rate is laughable. But yes.

[SteveShannon]

7 hours ago, Tiercel said:

Thanks again for the effort to educate me.  I wish I could meet a ham and talk in person.  This club only meets every other month, so my first possible meeting will be late Nov, about the time I take the test.  I guess I can just be patient to get any ham equipment.   I never thought about the option to boost your signal from a mobile with your own onboard repeater.  

I don't consider a 4-foot antenna huge.  I have been looking at dipole antennas for HF 

I have a professional background (although dated) in computers and networking.  I cannot even visualize using a ham transceiver for emails, video, file transfer, GPS???  I really need to find a ham so I can have a voice conversation.  I am going to program every ham repeater within range into my HT.

I’ll PM you my phone number.  Sometime this afternoon you can feel free give me a call and you can ask whatever you want.  Maybe that will help?

[WRUI365]

And this would be a good example of the aprs part.  https://aprs.fi

 

[Tiercel]

accidental double post 

[Tiercel]

Thanks SShannon,  I responded to your message.  I appreciate the offer.

WRUI365 - I don't totally understand what I am looking at but it was interesting to change the time and extent of the tails to see the movement of what must be GPS tracking.



 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, Tiercel said:

Thanks SShannon,  I responded to your message.  I appreciate the offer.

WRUI365 - I don't totally understand what I am looking at but it was interesting to change the time and extent of the tails to see the movement of what must be GPS tracking.



 

Got your message. I’m just eating lunch now. I’ll be available in about thirty minutes. 

[gortex2]

And on ham you can use DMR, P25, Fusion, IDAS etc..... That you can't use on GMRS

[back4more70]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:20 PM, marcspaz said:

50w portable/mobile repeaters for under $300.

Where can I find these?  They sound great for search and rescue use or event communications.