Best communication system setup for 20 miles in urban/suburban setting?

[Guest Ray-El]

I want to set up some type of back-up communication between myself and some family members. We all live in NJ, so the area is pretty flat. There are buildings and trees, but not a lot of high rises and definitely no mountains. Geographically, one house is less than 4 miles away from me in a straight line. The other is no more than 20 miles away. We would just use it for emergencies and training.

From what I read, neither CB's, FRS, or GMRS will likely cover that kind of distance reliably on their own, but using GMRS with a repeater should work. I didn't see any open repeaters in my area and I don't think I would want to rely on that even if there were any.

So, is it correct to say that the best options would be for all of us to get a device capable of up to 50 watts for the best range and each of us would need a repeater with the antenna installed as high as we can possibly get it?

I was looking at a Midland repeater and it sounded like they are suggesting you install the antenna on your roof. But it also comes with a cable that you can use to attach to the radio. I'm not sure I read that right or why that would be the case. If there is an emergency and we need to be mobile, what good is the repeater going to be if it's not also mobile? And for what reason would I need to connect the radio directly to the repeater if it sounds like the design allows the radio to use the repeater without a direct cable connection? I understand you can connect to a computer to change frequency settings and such. But I don't get why the radio would need to be hardwired to the repeater.

I'm also getting the impression that the options are the generally less powerful handhelds or generally more powerful car mounts. Is there such a thing as a car mount design that can be powered by something other than being hardwired to the car's electrical system? So if we needed to switch it from one vehicle to another or use it indoors, it would be as easy as unplugging it from the cigarette lighter and removing the antenna? Or does wanting indoor functionality basically mean we need to look into HAM radios?

And would this allow us to connect to anyone with a GMRS within range and on the same channel or are there device incompatibilities that we need to consider? 

I know we would need a license for GMRS, but I saw 2 sites with different fee amounts for it. One was $35 and the other was $75, I think. Which is correct?

Thanks for any suggestions. 

[WRVD377]

GMRS- Yes it can be possible.  Line of sight, repeater antenna as high as possible even that tiny repeater we have got 8 miles in bad locations.

If you are truely flat no buildings or hills in the way it is possible for HT 5W to get to it, but where I live it is not good past 2.25 miles.

The key is antenna height, for everyone.

Last I checked $35.

Also find the highest DB gain antenna for that tiny repeater and the highest location possible, with the shortest LMR-400 cable run you can.

Do not attempt to tie a radio to the repeater, get an HT for you to talk to it.  A mobile for a vehicle.

May not have hit all your points.

Royce

 

[WRWE456]

In your situation you may get by with mounting rooftop antennas on each house in your group connected to even five watt hand held radios.

In other words you may not need a repeater. It would still need to be high above the roof of your house. It may not gain you anything over a rooftop antenna connected to your radio. Try that first.

20 miles is not that far for GMRS as long as you have line of sight between antenna. If the antennas can see each other they can talk. Even 100 miles or more. The challenge is to get your antennas high enough. That is how you maximize range. That is also why a hand held at street level in a suburban area may not have much range because of all the buildings and trees in the way.

I live on a hill facing the direction of most of my contacts with line of sight between us and 30 miles is no problem even with just five watts. More power can help at times however antenna height is more important than power generally.

The way repeaters work is they are usually mounted as high as possible like on a tower or mountain or tall building. They receive your signal and then rebroadcast it out over a wider area because they are higher and above most obstacles. You do not connect to them with a wire. Generally one repeater is used and as long as each antenna can see the repeater it can relay the signal between two or more radios.

If you are looking to be self sufficient then don't rely on someone else's repeater as it may be down if the power is out.

There are directional antenna's that concentrate most of the energy in one direction. Two of these can be pointed at each other for improved range in more difficult terrain or longer distances.

Keep learning before committing to gear, you will save some money. Radio requires a fair amount of experimenting to be competent with.

Good luck!

[BoxCar]

12 hours ago, Guest Ray-El said:

I want to set up some type of back-up communication between myself and some family members. We all live in NJ, so the area is pretty flat. There are buildings and trees, but not a lot of high rises and definitely no mountains. Geographically, one house is less than 4 miles away from me in a straight line. The other is no more than 20 miles away. We would just use it for emergencies and training.

From what I read, neither CB's, FRS, or GMRS will likely cover that kind of distance reliably on their own, but using GMRS with a repeater should work. I didn't see any open repeaters in my area and I don't think I would want to rely on that even if there were any.

So, is it correct to say that the best options would be for all of us to get a device capable of up to 50 watts for the best range and each of us would need a repeater with the antenna installed as high as we can possibly get it?

I was looking at a Midland repeater and it sounded like they are suggesting you install the antenna on your roof. But it also comes with a cable that you can use to attach to the radio. I'm not sure I read that right or why that would be the case. If there is an emergency and we need to be mobile, what good is the repeater going to be if it's not also mobile? And for what reason would I need to connect the radio directly to the repeater if it sounds like the design allows the radio to use the repeater without a direct cable connection? I understand you can connect to a computer to change frequency settings and such. But I don't get why the radio would need to be hardwired to the repeater.

I'm also getting the impression that the options are the generally less powerful handhelds or generally more powerful car mounts. Is there such a thing as a car mount design that can be powered by something other than being hardwired to the car's electrical system? So if we needed to switch it from one vehicle to another or use it indoors, it would be as easy as unplugging it from the cigarette lighter and removing the antenna? Or does wanting indoor functionality basically mean we need to look into HAM radios?

And would this allow us to connect to anyone with a GMRS within range and on the same channel or are there device incompatibilities that we need to consider? 

I know we would need a license for GMRS, but I saw 2 sites with different fee amounts for it. One was $35 and the other was $75, I think. Which is correct?

Thanks for any suggestions. 

Here are a couple things to keep in mind. First, a repeater is a separate transmitter and receiver interconnected, so the receiver triggers the transmitter to send everything it "hears" on another frequency. The two frequencies, or repeater pair, are fixed in the GMRS allocation, with the receiver set to one 462 MHz frequency and the transmitter sending its signal on the 467 MHz channel of the pair. The repeater should be located somewhere all stations can reach or access, usually about equidistant from your three sites. The repeater can carry only one transmission at a time, but anyone can listen to what the two parties are talking about. Secondly, as you know but have not truly researched, the repeater requires power, and if that power source is not available, the repeater stops working. Therefore, in an emergency, all your nodes (radios) need an alternate source of power. That's usually done by batteries. The size or capacity of the battery system depends on how much power the repeater requires and how long you want it to remain in operation.

The other point I wanted to make is about antennas. There are two types, omnidirectional and directional. Your repeater will need an omni and each of your houses could use either. A directional would be pointed at the repeater location and be mounted high enough so it would overcome obstacles between it and the repeater. There are formulas available that can be used to calculate the height needed to reach your repeater as well as the height the repeater antenna needs to reach the furthest point you need coverage. 

The other option you have, which requires more work but could be less expensive, is for each of you to get licensed as an amateur operator and use any existing 2 meter repeater system already in place. Getting ham licenses isn't difficult, but it does require study of the material and then passing a 35 question test covering the requirements. Ham radios are generally more expensive than GMRS radios, but they are also more powerful and have better receivers. Some ham radios can be modified to use GMRS frequencies, but that is against regulation. The cost for a license is the same for both services, $35.00. If a person without an amateur license wants to use the ham radio, the licensee must be present and able to control the radio. It's not the same as GMRS, where the license covers all family members but is workable in any setting.

[Guest Ray-El]

Thanks for the great info. Lots to think about. 

2 of the houses would easily be able to accommodate a high antenna. The 3rd might be a challenge, because it's a condo without a yard. So we would probably have to attach it outside of a second floor window to get it high enough.  

I was looking at this antenna. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B45QZ5PC/?coliid=I3MQEWJUYW3AW7&colid=10FNN62GE5K1Y&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

It's really high on its own. But, if I'm understanding it right, 27 Mhz would make this suitable for a CB or HAM radio system, but not for the higher 462 frequencies of a GMRS. I'm assuming 10 meter and 11 meter refer specifically to HAM systems. There are other ones with higher frequencies, but I haven't found one yet that is as tall. 

A friend suggested that a CB might actually work with a linear amplifier. I already have an old RadioShack CB transceiver, so that would save me the cost of one device on the overall plan. But I'm more interested in making sure whatever we go with is effective and reliable. 

The power issue is also important. We've been looking into some solar generators for any component that might not have battery power. 

The other issue is weighing whether we should invest in base stations or portable systems. If the emergency is one where staying home is an option, then a base station makes the most sense. But if it's an emergency that requires mobility, then handhelds or a vehicle setup would be ideal. A vehicle system would also eliminate the power issue for at least some of the components. So perhaps a base station with components that can be converted into a mobile system would be the best of both worlds. Like using this AC to DC converter to take any CB or GMRS radios wired for a cigarette lighter indoors. My existing CB specifically calls for 13.8v and (I think) 5 or 6 ams, so this would work. I haven't checked to see if a GMRS system has the same or similar specs. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KML5SCJ/?coliid=I3H0EQBDJWYQYE&colid=10FNN62GE5K1Y&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Guest Ray-El said:

Thanks for the great info. Lots to think about. 

2 of the houses would easily be able to accommodate a high antenna. The 3rd might be a challenge, because it's a condo without a yard. So we would probably have to attach it outside of a second floor window to get it high enough.  

I was looking at this antenna. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B45QZ5PC/?coliid=I3MQEWJUYW3AW7&colid=10FNN62GE5K1Y&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

It's really high on its own. But, if I'm understanding it right, 27 Mhz would make this suitable for a CB or HAM radio system, but not for the higher 462 frequencies of a GMRS. I'm assuming 10 meter and 11 meter refer specifically to HAM systems. There are other ones with higher frequencies, but I haven't found one yet that is as tall. 

A friend suggested that a CB might actually work with a linear amplifier. I already have an old RadioShack CB transceiver, so that would save me the cost of one device on the overall plan. But I'm more interested in making sure whatever we go with is effective and reliable. 

The power issue is also important. We've been looking into some solar generators for any component that might not have battery power. 

The other issue is weighing whether we should invest in base stations or portable systems. If the emergency is one where staying home is an option, then a base station makes the most sense. But if it's an emergency that requires mobility, then handhelds or a vehicle setup would be ideal. A vehicle system would also eliminate the power issue for at least some of the components. So perhaps a base station with components that can be converted into a mobile system would be the best of both worlds. Like using this AC to DC converter to take any CB or GMRS radios wired for a cigarette lighter indoors. My existing CB specifically calls for 13.8v and (I think) 5 or 6 ams, so this would work. I haven't checked to see if a GMRS system has the same or similar specs. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KML5SCJ/?coliid=I3H0EQBDJWYQYE&colid=10FNN62GE5K1Y&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

Seams to me you have lots to think about and have gotton many opinions.  If you need no bs easy answers email me wrxp381@gmail.com.  I’ve helped many people set up Gmrs exactly like this for less investment that one would think. 

[BoxCar]

10 and 11 meter refers to the wavelength of the signal. To get the frequency, divide 300 by wavelength. 11 meter is the CB band and 10 meter is the ham band just above the CB frequencies.

Radio frequencies are fickle in that they generally follow what we've been saying. But then the signals can do strange things because of outside influences like sunspots where they often skip hundreds of miles or can't make it around the block. Generally, lower frequencies (longer wavelength) will travel further than high frequencies. 

I will suggest mobile radios over handhelds. A good mobile radio paired with a permanent base station antenna and power supply for use in home, with the addition of a cupholder radio mount and magnetic base antenna for the vehicles, as the most flexible. For the home power supply, I recommend the Mean Well brand (https://www.amazon.com/MEAN-WELL-LRS-350-12-Single-Switchable/dp/B0109IMRPS/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._BDCCr0pNIzZtbfN4znPqD0sp75Oamcg8qWIuJj2Y_wc4n6lpr_DcDdX4Bfb1VBV9MEn8GyEEDIwCKD5JjcTGHUnd_QGIX-gzZDRwz9tUAr0pmpBOWK6YJxmlZKh7KdCFePnOnfd3z-PFZ5T8FIVeEy48bXYckkvye3ryKwQ7Yb_ra3PIC9hSx0BhSSsSA9gxXnGhl5QG_24_3bqM7-pGlbNmcZUuvrO44yg6cgK5bxzgUggejhovVuJwZg7u_0v5TKjgA18hoP3nMOf4-CGKMTdKse1Sm9F9lf1eFOP6h0.1a4veoZni7XELGVaPS1-RE0DXk7-8jy5542tzhGgsCg&dib_tag=se&keywords=MEAN%2BWELL%2BLRS-12&qid=1708898002&s=pc&sr=1-3&th=1) as these are public safety grade units without the high premium attached to "radio" units. This particular power supply will not only operate your radio but also charge a battery system concurrently.

[gortex2]

You should also look at some radio propagation programs. I live in rural area. I have a DB408 on my house 40' in the air which is on a hill. 14 miles away I cannot talk to the repeater with a mobile at all. I loose the house about 6-8 miles away. My area isn't perfectly flat its rolling hills. My APRS barely makes it 14 miles on VHF with a gain antenna to a mobile 5/8 wave antenna. Yes some guys talk about 50-100 miles on a repeater but most are in a high location with nothing in between you and the repeater (LOS). If you can stand on your house and see the other house you will be good but I think 20 miles is stretching's it on GMRS for simplex operations.  YMMV.

[WRYZ926]

20 hours ago, Guest Ray-El said:

A friend suggested that a CB might actually work with a linear amplifier. I already have an old RadioShack CB transceiver, so that would save me the cost of one device on the overall plan. But I'm more interested in making sure whatever we go with is effective and reliable. 

Be careful listening to friends. Using any type of amplifier with a CB radio is illegal. CB is limited to 4 watts.

My suggestion is to get your amateur radio and GMRS licenses. That way you can use all of the amateur and GMRS frequencies without worries and go with what works best for you.

[back4more70]

21 hours ago, Guest Ray-El said:

Like using this AC to DC converter to take any CB or GMRS radios wired for a cigarette lighter indoors. My existing CB specifically calls for 13.8v and (I think) 5 or 6 ams, so this would work. I haven't checked to see if a GMRS system has the same or similar specs. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KML5SCJ/?coliid=I3H0EQBDJWYQYE&colid=10FNN62GE5K1Y&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

I bought this and it is terrific.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BBDPWVTM?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

[WSAW350]

I am currently looking into getting a system setup to communicate with my son 20 miles away (as the crow flies) in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, without the use of repeaters. Relatively flat, with maybe 90' elevation change, and lots of houses, shopping malls, industrial parks in-between. Don't have any experience in base setups,  I am resigned to the fact that the only way I can find out if this will work is to buy the gear and try. For me: Wouxun KG1000G Plus and a Tram 1486 or Ed Fong antenna on a 25" high mast and similar for my son (Midland of Wouxun, Tram or Ed Fong antenna).

 

[WRPG745]

50 minutes ago, WSAW350 said:

I am currently looking into getting a system setup to communicate with my son 20 miles away (as the crow flies) in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, without the use of repeaters. Relatively flat, with maybe 90' elevation change, and lots of houses, shopping malls, industrial parks in-between. Don't have any experience in base setups,  I am resigned to the fact that the only way I can find out if this will work is to buy the gear and try. For me: Wouxun KG1000G Plus and a Tram 1486 or Ed Fong antenna on a 25" high mast and similar for my son (Midland of Wouxun, Tram or Ed Fong antenna).

 

@WSAW350 (and Guest Ray-El), I think you are right, the only way to know is to test. Based on the gear you mention, I think its possible, but has more to do with your antenna placements and height than anything else.

I agree with the mindset of making the comms without a repeater. best to not rely on someone else's infrastructure.

looking forward to seeing more replies on this and finding out what works for y'all.

[WRYZ926]

I can talk to people up to 24 mils away on my KG-1000G on simplex. The guys I normally talk to on simplex are 18 and 24 miles away. We are all using the Comet CA-712EFC antennas. Mine is the lowest of the three at 18 feet above ground level. The other guys have their antennas up on towers. One is around 35-40 feet up and the other is around 60 feet up.  We all are using LMR400 coax cable.

A good antenna and coax cable along with a good line of sight makes the difference. Get a decent antenna as high as you can and also make sure to use good coax.

[WRWE456]

Try this tool: https://www.scadacore.com/tools/rf-path/rf-line-of-sight/

It is a line of sight calculator. Drag the two pointers to the locations you want to check and it will show you the terrain that may be in between. You should also include the height of your antenna's above the ground.