Advice on best GMRS approach for simplex

[WSAW371]

I have about 1.5 weeks of experience in GMRS and while I've read a lot and watched a lot YouTube, this is a very new space for me.  These are great resources; but I find myself going down a lot of rabbit holes that are not very clear. 

I am trying to figure out the best approach to use GMRS radios to establish a good simplex "connection" between my house, my dad, and my brother.   We're 3 miles apart and nearly a straight line (see attached picture).   They are about 140 in elevation lower than my house. There is a hill between us that's 160 feet above my elevation (300 above their location).  I have a two story house; but I have an HOA that may be difficult to work with on a roof mounted antenna. 

Using cheap handheld Baofeng radios, we can Tx/Rx a transmission; but it's fuzzy and difficult to understand.    There is a repeater that works perfect; but I'm try to figure out if we can do this without the repeater.  

As far as I can tell there are a couple options: add a better antenna and/or increase the radio wattage with a better radio.   I'm trying to figure out where I'll get the best cost efficiency.  If a fixed antenna is needed, I'll probably have to do an attic antenna to avoid HOA drama.

Thoughts?

[tweiss3]

So you are saying, in your house you can reach your dad and brother in their house with HTs? If so, a simple attic antenna and decent mobile radio permantently installed in both houses will be plenty. 

[marcspaz]

 

Putting an antenna on everyone's roof is going to be the best bang for the buck.  In the UHF radio band, height is might. The higher in the air the better.

I would also recommend getting a radio that is at least 15 watts with no more than 50 feet of LMR400 cable, which will give you about 11 usable watts at the antenna.  A 25w radio with no more than 100 feet of LM400 will give you about 12w of usable power at the antenna.  A 50w radio and 100 feet or less of LMR400 will give you the best advantage with 26w or more at the antenna.

I wouldn't worry about the HOA with an outside antenna. A half-wave antenna is only about 12 inches high, and a quarter-wave antenna is about 6 to 7 inches tall when you include the ground plain.  If you get a black or silver metal whip antenna, unless they happen to be on the roof doing an inspection, I highly doubt anyone would notice.

[back4more70]

Do you prefer handhelds or would you want to switch to mobile base-mounted radios with more power?  Either case, it may be the sensitivity or selection that needs improvement.  I'm curious what other folks may have done as well.

[WRHS218]

I have pretty much the same situation between my house and my daughter's house. We  have a ridge between us that obscures line of sight by 80 feet. I am 800 feet higher in elevation. Using 5W handhelds we can TX/RX if we are outside of our houses. My son-in-law put a mag mount mobile antenna on top of his house stuck to a metal vent cover. With that we can TX/RX from inside our houses with a little static. When I put up an antenna (j-pole tuned for GMRS) we have full quite comms in the house. 

An outside antenna would be the best thing. If your brother and dad could try putting an antenna it will probably make a lot of positive difference. If you could find a way to get an antenna outside, or maybe even in your attic, that would probably solve the issues. More power would help a little, maybe, but not as much as a batter antenna.

[WRXP381]

Pm sent 

[WSAW371]

6 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

So you are saying, in your house you can reach your dad and brother in their house with HTs? If so, a simple attic antenna and decent mobile radio permantently installed in both houses will be plenty. 

Outside the house, but yes.  GM-5RH radios can almost reach.  I'm just trying to make it better.

[tweiss3]

Just now, WSAW371 said:

Outside the house, but yes.  GM-5RH radios can almost reach.  I'm just trying to make it better.

I would hope that a decent 1/2 wave antenna in your attic to a 45-50W radio on both sides would get you there. 

[WSAW371]

26 minutes ago, WRHS218 said:

An outside antenna would be the best thing. If your brother and dad could try putting an antenna it will probably make a lot of positive difference. If you could find a way to get an antenna outside, or maybe even in your attic, that would probably solve the issues. More power would help a little, maybe, but not as much as a batter antenna.

I have an RV garage with a gabled end that faces the direction I'm trying to go with this.  Adding an antenna in the attic to that part of my garage is not a big deal.  Adding something on the roof will probably be an issue with my HOA.  For my dad, it's not an issue at all.  For my brother, it's the back of his house, so an antenna may be okay.

[WSAW371]

33 minutes ago, back4more70 said:

Do you prefer handhelds or would you want to switch to mobile base-mounted radios with more power?  

I'm open to a mobile base.  I'm assuming whatever we decide would need to be done at all three locations.  So that's why I'm trying to be a little more budget conscious.   

[WRYZ926]

25 watt mobiles will work fine in your situation as long as you all have good antennas to with them. A goos mag mount mobile antenna on a cookie sheet mounted on the side of the house facing your family will work pretty well. I mention 25 watt radios since they are cheaper than most good quality 50 watt radios.

[WRQW589]

I'd get three mobile radios, even a MXT-275 (15W output) would do the trick, though there are more capable models that are more loved here. And get three of Midland's 6db antennas, along with three magnetic mounts, and three 12v power supplies.

 

In each of the three homes, place an antenna in the attic or near a window on a cookie sheet for a ground plane. Bonus points if the window you place yours in is on the side of the house closest to your brother and father's homes, and on an upper floor. If your brother and father are able to go with an attic or roof-top antenna that's great, too. The Midland MXT-A26 antenna is the one to get, along with the necessary cable and a means of mounting it.

 

With those "good enough" radios, and those "pretty good, actually" antennas, you'll hit three miles without too much trouble. The mountain could be a problem, but you're already getting past it with handhelds. All the better with a decent antenna.

 

Come to think of it, you might just order the antennas, mounts, and adapters that fit your handhelds, assuming you're using handhelds that have detachable antennas. My UV-5G can hit a repeater 22 miles away with just its built in antenna, but when I hook it up to the MXT-A26 it sounds great.

[WSAW350]

I think you should be pleased getting past that mountain with just handhelds (and I assume factory antennas) .  I would think that getting a decent external antenna (even a mobile placed at a 2nd story window)) setup for all three handhelds and getting some height would improve your signal and audio a bit.

I'm trying to do a similar thing with my son who lives 20 miles away, not too much elevation change or big mountains in the way, but lots of houses and business districts, I live in DFW. I'm looking at getting us 50 watt mobiles and  to-be-determined antennas. I too have an HOA and I'm researching portable mast systems to get my antenna up at least 25'.  Good luck!

[WRUU653]

You may find this tool helpful but nothing beats trying it out with your radios. If you can safely get up on the roof with your HT you may get an idea of how much an antenna  higher up will make. A mobile/base with a good antenna should certainly help some. It sounds like you are already beating the odds so that's cool.  

[labreja]

4 hours ago, marcspaz said:

I would also recommend getting a radio that is at least 15 watts with no more than 50 feet of LMR400 cable, which will give you about 11 usable watts at the antenna.  A 25w radio with no more than 100 feet of LM400 will give you about 12w of usable power at the antenna.  A 50w radio and 100 feet or less of LMR400 will give you the best advantage with 26w or more at the antenna.

This is great info!  I learn so much here.  Thanks!

[Borage257]

Looks like you have a ridge between y’all. A repeater station on the top of the hill  or off to the left of the hill would help tremendously. 

[WSAW371]

5 hours ago, Borage257 said:

Looks like you have a ridge between y’all. A repeater station on the top of the hill  or off to the left of the hill would help tremendously. 

There is a repeater on top of one of the nearby mountains.  We can hit that repeater and it works fine.   I'm trying to solve this problem so I don't have to rely on the repeater.    I like having redundancy in technology.

 

 

[WSAW371]

I got on the roof with a Nogoya UT-72G mag mount stuck to a roof jack.  My brother had a Nagoya NA-F30G antenna from his back patio.  Using cheap GM-5RH HTs, we were about to have a conversation.  It was a little quiet; but not terrible.  I can certainly hide a mag mounted antenna from the HOA.  I'll probably try the Midland MXTA 26.  

I could go a little higher on the roof; but it would require significantly more coax to get down to my desk in the garage.  From where I had it, it would require about 25 feet of cable.  

[WSAQ406]

To stay on the cheep a nagoya UT-308UV or Nagoya UT-72 placed on a cookie sheet on the roof will make that trip... but you will look like me and you don't want that.

but it will work and it is on the cheep side.

Get you dad to put in a repeater and you all can just keep using you  HT's