Does price matter?

[Ziggidy]

Are radios like other "things" that people talk about when it comes to purchase price?  I have often heard people say don't waste your money and get something less expensive; after all, they all do the same thing. I even heard it about some HT's.  "Get the least expensive, you won't go wrong". Although I may agree somewhat, I certainly am not knowledgeable enough to make that determination with GMRS or electronics in general. So what does one do when faced with a question and they have a handy forum close by that has a gazzion experts all giving great advice?  You ask!

I have 2 HT's just to learn what this GMRS is about and how I may benefit from it.  I live in a suburban setting and those HT's are good but I am not getting the full taste of GMRS and how it may be used by me.  Knowing that, I am thinking......thinking about a mobile unit.  When searching I see a wide variety of prices, watts, features and such but nothing shoots out to me as "that's the one".  If 50 watts is the best, why would anyone settle to less?  If a $200 unit is as good as a $300 unit, why pay the extra?  

What I want?  To talk as far as capable, easy programming, good reputation, great customer support and who knows what else.  I'd want it so I can grow into a communication process with family.   Apply that knowledge with emergency responses, cell tower outages and such. I do not know all areas I can grow into using GMRS.  I don't have a base but I may have access to convert the mobile to a base if needed.

Ok, what is recommended?  What to stay away from?  What to be cautious of?  Ya'll are the experts. 

BTW, I have 2 UV-5G Plus and 1 DT-H3.     THANKS IN ADVANCE!

[OffRoaderX]

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that I have probably used and owned more GMRS radios than anyone else here - and in my not humble opinion, the answer is "it depends" ...

Usually, but not always, a higher priced radio will be better built, last longer and have more features than a less expensive one.. But not always.

And, 50Watts is not necessarily the best - in most cases, for most people, usually, a 20W radio will give you just as many fars as a 50W radio when doing normal-people communications - your geography/terrain will usually limit your fars more than the watts, most of the time, on average, in most scenarios.

For what you have indicated you want, I would say to check out the Wouxun XS20G or the KG-1000G .. If you want SUPER SIMPLE (but limited), look at one of the Midland 40 or 50W models.

Based on my experience, and the experience of hundreds of personal friends (in my offroad/radio groups) and thousands of online 'friends', I would be cautious of the very cheap high-power mobile radios like the Btech, due to their high failure rate.  Also keep in mind that EVERY manufacturer sells duds - so you will hear horror stories about ANY radio.. The thing to pay attention to is how often does that happen and to your point about customer support, how well does the company take care of them.  Midland and Wouxun both have overall very good reputations of good support. 

[nokones]

If you buy cheap, you get cheap junk and cheap is usually not cheap in the long run and a complete waste of time and energy.

More than likely you won't be impressing  the good looking chick's with a cheap piece-of-junk hanging on your belt, unless they are extremely calorie enhanced and living in the community below where Randy lives.

[CALO50]

Buy once, cry once.

[808Beachbum]

Although I am relatively new to GMRS, I have been a HAM (General) for over 10 years. As such, I will go out on a limb and agree with @OffRoaderX and tell you "it depends". For best results, you need to provide clear and unambiguous requirements. First of all, GMRS, compared to HAM, has a much more limited range of areas/use you can "grow into", so what are your expectations? If you belong to any one of a number of types of groups- hunting, hiking, skiing, prepping, GMRS specific local radio groups, or dare I say, offroading, you already have a specific group you wish to communicate with. Of course, anything within your immediate or extended family could also be your "group".

Groups are what GMRS is primarily used for, although in some areas there are larger "repeater" networks and internet connected "nodes", but generally it provides little value for simply striking up new friendships with otherwise unconnected strangers. You are limited to the 22 channels (plus 8 repeater only) for transmitting, whereas with HAM radio, you are restricted to a number of relatively broad, but different, frequency bands (with differing characteristics relating to typical distance (including penetration of obstacles), necessary power, frequency bandwidth, and largely unlimited frequencies within each band (based on type of transmission). Digital data, video, automated beacons, CW (continuous wave, otherwise referred to as Morse Code), and a variety of packet methods are available depending on the level of your HAM license. You can bounce signals off the moon, listen to satellites, talk to the International Space Station, and have literally endless other possible areas to learn and experiment in. You can, with relative ease, meet new people over the air any time of day or night, and, depending on conditions, in every corner of the world. I actually spend a fair amount of time doing just that with a HAM HT, an Openspot, and my cellphone hotspot, all while simply walking through the park. I have made contacts in Scotland, Japan, Australia, most of the 50 states, Canada, Africa...there is no limit other than your choice and use of easily available equipment. My first radio was one of the ICOM HT's, which in addition to using as an handheld, I made a simple bracket to clip it to in the car, added a quality Diamond magmount mobile antenna, and extended my range significantly over the basic rubber duckie. I figured a mobile radio install was just an invitation to thieves...(same as a call sign vanity plate).

First of all, regardless of whether you choose GMRS or HAM, you should learn what is active in your area. Look for Amateur Radio or GMRS specific clubs in your area, or talk with others in the "groups" previously mentioned to see what they are using. Check with RadioReference to see what they may have listed for your locale. I'm in Honolulu...it should not matter to you what my preference is, since what band is actually in use in your area (or areas that you plan to visit) is what you should be learning about, in addition to getting an understanding of how terrain, structures, trees, and electronic noise will affect reception differently depending on band and the type/quality build of a given radio.

Having said all that, your first statement was inquiring about "purchase price". In general, I prefer to concern myself with Value, rather than Price. Personally, I have a couple ICOM HT's, a Yaesu Portable, and a Baofeng HT, all HAM gear; and a pair of Baofeng GMRS at present. There is no question the ICOM and Yaesu units are far better built, with better design electronically and easier overall user interface. The ICOM's were both in the $500 range; Yaesu around $1200; but the three Baofengs COMBINED are less than $100. For my purposes, I keep the Baofeng HT in the car as a backup, and the GMRS pair, after initial testing and familiarization, I plan to put into a faraday bag with another pair of Baoefeng HAM HT's..."just in case" as Cheap Insurance. All of current local repeaters, marine, air, GMRS, MURS, and local "calling" and simplex net freqs are set up on all of the radios (as available based on model...the GMRS can still monitor many of these, although will not transmit, which is fine for gathering some intel.).

 

[marcspaz]

I think "it depends" is the best answer.  I've owned and used well over 100 radios in my lifetime, varying in price (new) from $5 to $7,000. In my adventures I learned there is a huge difference between cheap and inexpensive.

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

I would be cautious of the very cheap high-power mobile radios like the Btech, due to their high failure rate.  Also keep in mind that EVERY manufacturer sells duds - so you will hear horror stories about ANY radio.

 

This is great advice.  

 

I really like the BTech and Baofeng HTs and have had great luck with them.

 

On the mobile side, a couple of years ago, I acquired 4 BTech mobile radios. The first 3 didn't make it a whole 3 weeks, combined use. The 4th worked okay, but the screen washed out when the roof and doors were off the Jeep. I sold it to a member here, and last I heard, they were happy with it. With a 75% failure rate, I'm going to wait on trying another one until people are bragging about them like the TD-H3 gets love now.

[SteveShannon]

Unfortunately, price isn’t always a great determiner of value.  A highly skilled engineer working in a country where wages are a fraction of another country is capable of designing a high quality radio for much less than an equally skilled engineer in one of the countries where engineers are highly paid.  American engineers don’t have a monopoly on scientific knowledge.

Statistically speaking, taking two competing products, both designed in the same economic area, the one that has a greater dedication of resources (for design, manufacturing, QC, and support) will generally reflect a higher customer satisfaction and have a higher price.

Sales price for mass produced items will be largely dependent on the cost of production and after sales support, once the sunk cost of design has been covered. Despite our national pride, very high quality items can and are produced in countries with low labor costs. 

So, unfortunately, price isn’t an easy predictor of quality. A company’s (recent) reputation is a more reliable predictor.

 

[WRYZ926]

I have to agree that the Wouxun KG-XS20G and KG-1000G radios are great choices. I own both and they work well. I am using one KG-1000G as my base station with a Comet CA-712EFC antenna and another in my car with a short Tram 1174 antenna. The KG-XS20G is in my Honda Pioneer 500 with a Comet 2x4SR antenna.

While I am not a fan of Midland mobile radios, they are hard to beat for their simplicity and ease of use.

I haven't heard a lot of positive reviews on the Baofeng/B-Tech mobile radios. This goes for their GMRS and amateur band mobile radios.

[Lscott]

7 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

A highly skilled engineer working in a country where wages are a fraction of another country is capable of designing a high quality radio for much less than an equally skilled engineer in one of the countries where engineers are highly paid.  American engineers don’t have a monopoly on scientific knowledge.

This is true for anything. Some engineers here feel a bit too smug. Same goes for what school they graduate from as well.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

This is true for anything. Some engineers here feel a bit too smug. Same goes for what school they graduate from as well.

It is true for anything, but unfortunately many people don’t understand it and compare the price of American made goods to Chinese made goods and use the price comparison alone as proof of comparative value. That’s a trap that people should steer clear of. There absolutely is a difference in quality between some things made in America and some things made overseas, and that can result in an even greater price difference, but the  myth about all Chinese radios coming out of the same factory, of universally poor quality, with only the label differing, is nonsense.  Sixty years ago Americans felt the same about Japanese products and became complacent about quality and innovation. We cannot afford to repeat that mistake.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

Sixty years ago Americans felt the same about Japanese products and became complacent about quality and innovation. We cannot afford to repeat that mistake.

The US auto manufactures made that mistake decades ago. They still haven't recovered.

[WRYZ926]

I know a few people in different industries that deal with Chinese manufacturers. Most Chinese manufacturers will make what ever you want and to the specifications you require. You can't always go by the country of origin to determine the quality. It is what specifications the customer wants and how much they want to pay per item.

And Midland radios are made in China also. Even some Japanese companies are having radios made in China now days, this includes some Yaesu models and some Alinco models.

Like most people, I did my research before buying any radio. First hand reviews by actual end users are important. I take most reviews on Amazon with a grain of salt and look for more independent reviews.

I had a Midlands MXT500 for a while. But I was not happy that my particular radio was not putting out anything close to the 50 watts maximum (35 watts on high). Otherwise it was a nice radio and easy to program through the radio itself.

The Wouxun KG-1000G radios I have do put out between 46 and 50 watts as advertised. And the KG-XS20G actually puts out 25 watts versus the advertised 20 watts.

[nokones]

1 hour ago, WRYZ926 said:

I know a few people in different industries that deal with Chinese manufacturers. Most Chinese manufacturers will make what ever you want and to the specifications you require. You can't always go by the country of origin to determine the quality. It is what specifications the customer wants and how much they want to pay per item.

And Midland radios are made in China also. Even some Japanese companies are having radios made in China now days, this includes some Yaesu models and some Alinco models.

Like most people, I did my research before buying any radio. First hand reviews by actual end users are important. I take most reviews on Amazon with a grain of salt and look for more independent reviews.

I had a Midlands MXT500 for a while. But I was not happy that my particular radio was not putting out anything close to the 50 watts maximum (35 watts on high). Otherwise it was a nice radio and easy to program through the radio itself.

The Wouxun KG-1000G radios I have do put out between 46 and 50 watts as advertised. And the KG-XS20G actually puts out 25 watts versus the advertised 20 watts.

I'm curious, by any chance, did you test the Midland MXT500 radio with a quality in-line watt meter like a certified Bird or service monitor with a dummy load, or did you use a cheap $100 watt meter from Amazon with the radio connected to a poorly tuned antenna that is reflecting power with a POS coaxial cable and cheap connectors?

I was getting something like 50.7 watts with 13.9 volts and if my memory serves me right, about 8 something watts of power being drawn, with my MXT500 radio.

[WRYZ926]

55 minutes ago, nokones said:

I'm curious, by any chance, did you test the Midland MXT500 radio with a quality in-line watt meter like a certified Bird or service monitor with a dummy load, or did you use a cheap $100 watt meter from Amazon with the radio connected to a poorly tuned antenna that is reflecting power with a POS coaxial cable and cheap connectors?

I don't have access to a Bird monitor.  I tested with a couple of different SWR/power meters into a good dummy load and also with the antenna inline. I am using a tuned Comet CA-712EFC with a 32 foot run of LMR400 Ultraflex coax with Amphenol connectors. There was a slight difference between my Surecom meter and my more expensive meter. But the Midland was still only putting out 38 watts on high into the dummy load and connected to the antenna. The two Wouxon KG-1000G radios were a steady 46 to 50 watts and the KG-XS20G was 25 watts. The only differences in my tests were the radios, everything else was the same in each test.

While I did not use high end testing equipment, I did make sure to keep everything as consistent as possible.

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

I don't have access to a Bird monitor.  I tested with a couple of different SWR/power meters into a good dummy load and also with the antenna inline. I am using a tuned Comet CA-712EFC with a 32 foot run of LMR400 Ultraflex coax with Amphenol connectors. There was a slight difference between my Surecom meter and my more expensive meter. But the Midland was still only putting out 38 watts on high into the dummy load and connected to the antenna. The two Wouxon KG-1000G radios were a steady 46 to 50 watts and the KG-XS20G was 25 watts. The only differences in my tests were the radios, everything else was the same in each test.

While I did not use high end testing equipment, I did make sure to keep everything as consistent as possible.

 

Lower than advertised power was one of my complaints with the Rev 1 MXT500.  I tested it with a Bird 43, an MFJ 842, the SureComm 102, and eventually a Daiwa CN-901 and if I recall correctly (it's been awhile) they all had the same result, give or take a watt.  The Bird was the only one that was professionally calibrated and I just used that as a benchmark for my other meters.

 

After some debate and sharing results, Midland did a full tune-up on my radio and sent it back with a performance test spec sheet that lined up well with my second round of tests.  I was pretty happy with the radio and customer service once it was tuned for me.

[nokones]

5 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

I don't have access to a Bird monitor.  I tested with a couple of different SWR/power meters into a good dummy load and also with the antenna inline. I am using a tuned Comet CA-712EFC with a 32 foot run of LMR400 Ultraflex coax with Amphenol connectors. There was a slight difference between my Surecom meter and my more expensive meter. But the Midland was still only putting out 38 watts on high into the dummy load and connected to the antenna. The two Wouxon KG-1000G radios were a steady 46 to 50 watts and the KG-XS20G was 25 watts. The only differences in my tests were the radios, everything else was the same in each test.

While I did not use high end testing equipment, I did make sure to keep everything as consistent as possible.

The difference between your 38 watts and 50 watts is barely a dB which is not significant enough to make any difference in the farz and if there is any difference it may be just a few inches in better farz, ok maybe a yard or two better but you won't be able to tell the difference anyways. 10 or 11 watts more is just all mental.

[WRYZ926]

1 hour ago, nokones said:

The difference between your 38 watts and 50 watts is barely a dB which is not significant enough to make any difference in the farz and if there is any difference it may be just a few inches in better farz, ok maybe a yard or two better but you won't be able to tell the difference anyways. 10 or 11 watts more is just all mental.

While that is very true, one expects at least 45 watts out of a radio rated at 50 watts by the manufacturer. And  as noted by myself and others, Midland knows there is an issue with the MXT500 being underpowered.

Now in places like I live, that extra power can and does help punch through the trees, etc. We have lots of forested areas in between the farm fields. The forested areas are all old growth hardwoods and eastern cedar. I have been in areas where I can get out fine with my KG-1000G at 45-50 watts while I struggle with the KG-XS20G at 25 watts. Same goes with my 70cm radios too. The 50 watt radio does better than my 25 watt radio in the same locations. Sometimes one needs all the power they can get with UHF frequencies.

[nokones]

Like I posted earlier, my MXT500 is at full advertised RF Output power. What was the input power level to the radio measured at? It should be at 13.7 volts when keyed and with at least 7-8 amps sustained.

[nokones]

8 hours ago, nokones said:

I'm curious, by any chance, did you test the Midland MXT500 radio with a quality in-line watt meter like a certified Bird or service monitor with a dummy load, or did you use a cheap $100 watt meter from Amazon with the radio connected to a poorly tuned antenna that is reflecting power with a POS coaxial cable and cheap connectors?

I was getting something like 50.7 watts with 13.9 volts and if my memory serves me right, about 8 something watts of power being drawn, with my MXT500 radio.

Oops, I meant to say 8 something amps and not watts for the power draw.

[WRYZ926]

I tried a couple of different power supplies and they all put out 13.7 - 13.8 volts according to my Fluke multimeter.

[Borage257]

What does your car’s alternator put out? Most power supplies will match that.

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, Borage257 said:

What does your car’s alternator put out? Most power supplies will match that.

 

I'm not sure I would agree with that.  Most modern vehicles don't have a traditional alternator (one that behaves like a generator) that puts out a fixed voltage.  The car's computer monitors the battery values, like temperature, voltage, and power utilization, and then adjusts the alternator output voltage based on the needs.

 

For example, if my Jeep sits for a week in the cold of winter and I start it up at night, the use of the lights, heat, radio and other electronics, I will see the voltage as high as 15vdc.  On the flip side, the opposite is true if I have been cruising on the highway for hours during the day, in the middle of Spring or Fall, with nothing but the bare essentials to run the vehicle.  My alternator will almost completely turn off and my electrical system will run near purely on the battery, with just a trickle charge holding it at about 12.4vdc-12.8vdc.  It won't increase the voltage unless the demand draws the battery down.

 

This is relevant to the point that at 12.4vdc, my 50w radio's total system consumption may be about 100w, but at 15vdc it may use 120w.  With modern efficiency of radios, that is a variation of somewhere in the neighborhood of 10w transmit power.

[WRYZ926]

11 hours ago, marcspaz said:

For example, if my Jeep sits for a week in the cold of winter and I start it up at night, the use of the lights, heat, radio and other electronics, I will see the voltage as high as 15vdc.  On the flip side, the opposite is true if I have been cruising on the highway for hours during the day, in the middle of Spring or Fall, with nothing but the bare essentials to run the vehicle.  My alternator will almost completely turn off and my electrical system will run near purely on the battery, with just a trickle charge holding it at about 12.4vdc-12.8vdc.  It won't increase the voltage unless the demand draws the battery down.

Every vehicle I have owned with the battery monitor system and auto start/stop system has been this way. I have seen as high as 15.2 volts and as low as 12.8 volts with my 2023 Ford escape.

Most dc power supplies used for radios have two output settings. One is for a constant 13.8 volts and the other is variable voltage. I leave all my power supplies on the constant 13.8 volt setting and they are all very consistent at 13.7 to 13.8 volts.

[DONE]

Couple things to know about radios in general.

First is power output.  A radio that has V power output is going to perform the same as any other radio that has that same power output.  This is assuming that both radios are transmitting a signal that is legal, where the harmonics are below the required level.  Not gonna go into the weeds on that, but you can look it up.

Then you get to features, menu items and the like.  The multi thousand dollar radios typically have LESS features (higher end commercial radios) than a 40 dollar Baofeng or Btech.  They are NOT designed or built for radio hobbyists, they are designed for public safety communications where the user just needs to talk and listen.  Menu items all revolve around that and extra's are not there to overly complicate the radio.  THe other modes like P25 have no bearing on GMRS because it's not legal to use P25, DMR or those other modes on GMRS.  The service is limited to basic wideband FM analog communication.

So we get to the last part, the receiver.  And this is the part where the better radios will shine over the inexpensive ones.  Things like adjacent  channel rejection and front end filtering in the more expensive radios make them better.  Mind you, if you are operating in a suburban or rural area that doesn't have a ton of RF noise and trash in the air, you may never see the difference.  But we have taken a Baofeng and a Motorola HT1000 up 200 feet on the tower.  The HT1000 worked as it should.  The Baofeng would receive all manner of noise and garbage and was almost unusable.  Taking both into a busy downtown area of a major city would show similar results.