Club memberships required to use (aka Pay to play)

[UncleYoda]

Does the practice of clubs allowing only paid members to use their repeater(s) violate GMRS regs?  Is it different than similar practice in HAM? (These questions are prompted by comments in various threads here.)

 

No trash posting please; if you don't care, ignore.

[OffRoaderX]

I have often wondered the same so I am curious to read all of the conflicting legal opinions from our in-house legal scholars and constitutional experts.... following...

[wrci350]

This would appear to be the relevant rule in Part 95 E:

(3) A station may be shared only:

(i) Without charge;

(ii) On a non-profit basis, with contributions to capital and operating expenses including the cost of mobile stations and paging receivers prorated equitably among all participants; or

(iii) On a reciprocal basis, i.e., use of one licensee's stations for the use of another licensee's stations without charge for either capital or operating expenses.

[nokones]

By rule, a repeater owner may share the use of his/her repeater station and permits the owner total control of who is allowed to use the repearer. 

The GMRS Repeater Clubs I belong to regulates only Club members can have the tone information for accessing the  repeater(s) that are owned by individual Club members.

The Clubs do not charge a fee for access to the repeater station. They only charge a membership fee to be a member in the Club.

The repeaters are actually owned by an individual GMRS licensee and not the Club itself. The Repeater Station ID reflects who is the individual owner of that Station.

I believe the Clubs I am a member of are following the rule.

[LeoG]

If you don't join the club by paying dues you can't use the repeater.

 

AKA you pay to use the repeater.

[WRUE951]

you only pay to play if you are a friend or family member,,  But then you'll get labeled as a weirdo.  But what the hell,  we are now use to and have to accept weird $hit     

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Does the practice of clubs allowing only paid members to use their repeater(s) violate GMRS regs?  Is it different than similar practice in HAM? (These questions are prompted by comments in various threads here.)

 

No trash posting please; if you don't care, ignore.

If you look at the regulations they specifically prohibit operating as a commercial carrier but they say that companies who are licensed may operate nonprofitably. 
I’ve never seen anything that says a repeater owner can’t recuperate costs. 
Ham radio is completely different. There it’s specifically prohibited to charge. 

[UncleYoda]

52 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

If you look at the regulations

I do not like your implication that I haven't looked at the regs.  I would almost never bring anything up without reading the regs (I've read all of parts 97 & 95 more than once already anyway).  I do not see any substantive difference in the two relating to this.  Ham clubs charge for membership.  AFAIK, prior to joining and maybe even after joining there is no accounting provided of how the dues are spent.  And that was true for the one gmrs club I was formerly a member of; members were not even told how many members there were.

 

The main issue I know of with HAM repeaters is the commercial tower owners cannot charge for HAM repeaters.  I have not heard that brought up with GMRS.

 

It's interesting to see all the varied interpretations posted so far - but not really good feedback for the clarity of t he regs.

[LeoG]

Which goes to show you how badly the regulations are written.  If they were written precisely then there could only be one interpretation.  And that is how they are suppose to be written, very narrow meanings so you can say yes or no if they were adhered to.

I think the bureaucracies love to write these so they can be interpreted differently for their friends and hammer people they don't care for.

[DominoDog]

I like it when regulations are written to give users leeway to make the service work the way they need it to work.

There are large pay-to-play GMRS repeater networks near me. Some standalone, some linked. I don't personally want to pay a monthly fee but I do not mind at all sharing in the expenses if it is a shared resource. Not everyone has a hill in their backyard and a tall tree to toss a wire over. Some want to pay big $$$ for premium locations or whatever. Leasing stuff is expensive, whether it is a spot on a tower or a spot in a transmitter shack or whatever.

So while I do not want to pay monthly/recurring for access to a repeater, I will pay as I go for a week or a month or a flat $50 here-ya-go-thanks for the weekend or whatever. If I have to; I'd rather everything be free lol. But I'm just saying what I'd be willing to pay.

 

However...

 

What I do not like, and will not comply with, is the additional callsign junk. I already have a government issued callsign, a unique identifier for using on the air. I do not want this separate group ID like "CHAT 99" or whatever. There is a pay-to-play group down near Chattanooga TN and they make their users identify with "Chat XX" with a unique number assigned. No thanks. No, really. No thank you. I'll use my already unique identifier, and that will be all I use. Or I'll not use the system I have the choice to make.

[DominoDog]

28 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I do not like your implication that I haven't looked at the regs.

I think that was meant "let's take a look at them regs" more than "Since you haven't bothered to read these yet" 

[LeoG]

One of the repeaters I use has a numbered system.  They say it's easier to contact someone specific and it sort of is.  No one says you have to use the number to ID yourself you can use your govt ID.  Which by regulation you need to anyway.

It's something you get use to if you want to go that way.  They aren't forcing you to use it, just for convenience.  I haven't found many duplicate names of the normies on the repeater to make it necessary.  There aren't 6 Mikes and 14 Bob's surprisingly.

 

I start off with my call sign and say my # and my wifes # when I want to contact her.  It's actually more noticeable than your name.  And the repeater owners don't force you to join use.  Again, more for the convenience.

[WRHS218]

I travel to TX several times a year to visit family. I joined a GMRS club that has repeaters in the area I visit so I can use their repeaters (I understand the repeaters are privately owned by a single licensee) when I'm there. The membership is free. You can become a paying member or donate if you want to but the basic membership, which allows you to use their repeaters, is free. Because I don't play well with others I don't care to join clubs, GMRS or HAM. I understand when a GMRS club wants to know who is using their equipment so they require membership. I did not realize that there are GMRS clubs that require you to be a paying member to use their repeaters.

[UncleYoda]

12 minutes ago, LeoG said:

No one says you have to use the number to ID yourself you can use your govt ID.

That is different from my experience; it was the club/owner's requirement to use member ID, of course in addition to the FCC ID requirement..

[LeoG]

The one I use isn't a club and you are only a "member" because they gave you a number and put you on the list of all the people that also have numbers.  Says on their facebook page that anyone is free to use the repeater and if you think you'll use it on a regular basis they'd like you to have a number so others can contact you more easily.

Nothing says you have to answer anyone trying to contact you either.

 

Being forced sound silly.

[nokones]

45 minutes ago, WRHS218 said:

I travel to TX several times a year to visit family. I joined a GMRS club that has repeaters in the area I visit so I can use their repeaters (I understand the repeaters are privately owned by a single licensee) when I'm there. The membership is free. You can become a paying member or donate if you want to but the basic membership, which allows you to use their repeaters, is free. Because I don't play well with others I don't care to join clubs, GMRS or HAM. I understand when a GMRS club wants to know who is using their equipment so they require membership. I did not realize that there are GMRS clubs that require you to be a paying member to use their repeaters.

That sounds like the Texas GMRS Club.

[nokones]

2 hours ago, LeoG said:

If you don't join the club by paying dues you can't use the repeater.

 

AKA you pay to use the repeater.

If the Club doesn't own the repeater how would that be the case then? The member is paying Club dues to off-set the Club's monthly operating expenses and if that was not the case then the Club would cease to operate because the lack of revenue to fund the monthly operating expenses.

[LeoG]

It's a legal out.

 

But...  If you don't pay club dues, or donations or whatever they call it, you don't get to use the repeater.  Legally you probably aren't paying to use the repeater.  But you are.

[WRHS218]

59 minutes ago, nokones said:

That sounds like the Texas GMRS Club.

That would be the one.

[marcspaz]

5 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

I have often wondered the same so I am curious to read all of the conflicting legal opinions from our in-house legal scholars and constitutional experts.... following...

 

Im a constitutional scholar with a gifted IQ, but my wife said I can't comment on this because it's mean to make strangers on the internet cry.

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I do not like your implication that I haven't looked at the regs.  I would almost never bring anything up without reading the regs (I've read all of parts 97 & 95 more than once already anyway).

Oh, hell. No implications were intended but it’s amusing to see how you reacted. 

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, LeoG said:

If they were written precisely then there could only be one interpretation.

 

I disagree.  "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" was pretty precise... nay concise,  but citizens and the government continue to F that one up pretty regularly.

[LeoG]

Unconstitutionally of course.  4th amendment to be secure in your papers and home, Patriot Act took care of that.  We do not live in a republic.

[Socalgmrs]

So any one can make there repeaters private.  They do not have to allow just any one on them.  If some one figures out the tone, a person has every right to change the tone.  Such as a family ranch, setting up a private repeater for ranch personal only.  So same as a club repeater.  It’s owned but a club member. The club has dues to put get togethers on. Picnics, play days, shirts hats camping trips ect.   The clubs members can use the club repeater.   It’s totally “legal”.  Your NOT paying for the repeater your joining a club that happens to own a repeater 

[gortex2]

13 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

The main issue I know of with HAM repeaters is the commercial tower owners cannot charge for HAM repeaters. 

Maybe you should let American Tower and Crown castle know this because they dont care if its HAM or not. Its still $X per foot on the tower per month with liability and all the other stuff.