FRS/GMRS Frequencies and programming requirements

[WSDA306]

Few observations/questions about programming my GMRS and FRS radios.

A. May be a dumb question but, why do all the radio manufacturers put freq 462.5500  as channel 15 since its a lower freq than 462.5625 (channel 1).  Seems like it should be channel 1,  Same for every channel after that freq 16-22.

B. In programming my radios, I have 4 different brands of FRS (16 channel, essentially the same radio, Zastone X6, Retevis R22, Baofang T20) + TidRadio M11 22ch.  And also my TD-H3 which is GMRS.  The reason, these china radios all come preprogrammed with the wrong frequencies, and I want them all to be able to talk to each other.  I have programmed them all and they all now talk to each other but Im not sure exactly what this NFM/FM is.  I put all of the FRS radios as NFM like this chart shows, and my GMRS as either FM or NFM.

C. Also looking at this chart, it seems the FCC decided not to give GMRS it's own frequency space, essentially it's the same as FRS, so the only thing you get by purchasing a GMRS license is the ability to broadcast in higher power and connect to a repeater?  

D. The FCC page says that the authorized bandwidth for GMRS is either 12.5 or 20Khz.  However when I read in the data for my GMRS radio into Chirp, there is no setting for the bandwidth.  Is this set automatically?

[UncleYoda]

Base can talk to handheld (and mobile, and other base), so I'll answer just on the repeater part.  If one uses a base station to talk through a repeater, that station is still a base, just operating in violation of regulations.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, UncleYoda said:

Some users try to stay "legal" while the enforcement agency still exists.  The fact that someone you're talking to doesn't know what type of setup you're using (unless they ask, which they often do at least on HAM) doesn't make it OK.  The rationale that you're not likely to get caught can be used for many other things if you choose to take the risk.  But that won't-get-caught approach is not how our system of government is intended to operate.

So let me make sure I understand you. 
You’re in favor of sheepishly obeying a meaningless rule, that has no obvious purpose, and for which a violation is undetectable? I respect you for that but in this case I choose not to follow  

I’m in favor of letting the government know how stupid the rule is. Mass disobedience is one way to do that. 

[marcspaz]

1 minute ago, SteveShannon said:

So let me make sure I understand you. 
You’re in favor of sheepishly obeying a meaningless rule, that has no obvious purpose, and for which a violation is undetectable?

I’m in favor of letting the government know how stupid the rule is. Mass disobedience is one way to do that. 

 

It's funny how people lose focus on the government exercising the will of the people, not the other way around. 

 

Also, you can't challenge a law or rule in court unless you have standing. The only to ways to have standing is to violate the rule or law and dispute allegations by an enforcement agency, or you have to go to court and tell the judge you either have or intend to violate the rule/law. 

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, UncleYoda said:

That's just your meaningless characterization.  There's nothing wrong with following rules - our society depends on it.

I agree when the rules have a reason and an effect. This one doesn’t. 

[amaff]

1 minute ago, UncleYoda said:

There's nothing wrong with following rules - our society depends on it.

Yeah. That's why we just paid the higher taxes on tea and are still part of the United Kingdom

Obey rules that make sense. Plenty of rules don't.

[UncleYoda]

Something is going wrong with display of posts (out of order, duplicated, disappearing).

[UncleYoda]

3 minutes ago, amaff said:

Obey rules that make sense. Plenty of rules don't.

Sounds like you haven't been paying attention to what's happened to our law enforcement and court system.

[nokones]

3 hours ago, BoxCar said:

Which is not a problem as there are no "base station" radios. There are hand held and mobile units only. Some mobile units are used in a fixed location, but they are still mobile units.

95.303 Definitions

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations.

[marcspaz]

@UncleYoda @Lscott @SteveShannon 

 

So, a friend of mine helped me understand this a bit better.  Evidently, using "base station" as a laymen term verse the technical term are not the same.  My buddy pointed out that a base station (in laymen terms) that communicates with a repeater is classified as a "control station" by rule definition.

 

So, in laymen terms, a base station can 100% communicate with repeaters, but they are classified as "control stations" while communicating through a repeater, for the sake of FCC rules.

 

From the § 95.303 definitions...

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

[UncleYoda]

@marcspaz  @nokones  I don't believe that is a correct interpretation at all.  People say the same thing about fixed station.  My opinion is the station type does not automatically switch back and forth depending on the station you're talking to.  And if they did write the regs with that intent, they are blooming idiots.

[WRXR255]

4 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

And if they did write the regs with that intent, they are blooming idiots.

Point, Set, Match.  Summed it up perfectly.

I dont think they try to do that, but its bureaucracy at its best so give em some slack.

[marcspaz]

@UncleYoda  You don't think it's a little tiny bit silly to think that the FCC would make it against the rules to use a repeater from a radio at your house? 

[UncleYoda]

13 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

@UncleYoda  You don't think it's a little tiny bit silly to think that the FCC would make it against the rules to use a repeater from a radio at your house? 

Absolutely.  That's why I called them, to see if it was an oversight or something.  I couldn't talk to a person that knew anything though.

[nokones]

56 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Absolutely.  That's why I called them, to see if it was an oversight or something.  I couldn't talk to a person that knew anything though.

Why would you want to call the FCC when the rules are written in Part 95, subparts A & E which we must work within those restrictions rather we like them or not, and regardless who at the FCC you talked to. It doesn't matter what the guy says, we have to follow what is in writing not what the guy says because the official rules are the written rules not the verbal rules.

[BoxCar]

According to the communications attorney I talked to, there are NO GMRS Base Station radios. There are GMRS radios operating from fixed locations operating as either repeaters or control stations. Your home based GMRS radio is used to control a repeater or communicate directly to other mobile units. This holds true through all sections under Parts 90, 95, and 97.

[wrci350]

56 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

According to the communications attorney I talked to, there are NO GMRS Base Station radios. There are GMRS radios operating from fixed locations operating as either repeaters or control stations. Your home based GMRS radio is used to control a repeater or communicate directly to other mobile units. This holds true through all sections under Parts 90, 95, and 97.

Go read the Part 95 definition of "base" versus "control" again.

If you are using your mobile GMRS radio connected to a power supply and outside antenna to talk directly to other GMRS radios (NOT through a repeater) it's considered a base station.

If you are using the same radio to talk through a repeater it's a control station.

Is it silly to have that distinction?  Perhaps.  But that's what the rules say.

In any event, it's perfectly fine to have a "base" GMRS station and use repeaters.

[OffRoaderX]

You guys are funny. 

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

 

It’s not a base station… it’s a mobile. 

What kind of antenna do you use on the truck?

[marcspaz]

52 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

You guys are funny. 

 

What do you mean I'm funny? What do you mean, the way I talk? What?  Funny how? I mean, what's funny about it? Funny how? I'm funny like a clown?  I amuse you?  I make you laugh?  I'm here to amuse you?

[UncleYoda]

13 hours ago, nokones said:

Why would you want to call the FCC when the rules are written in Part 95, subparts A & E which we must work within those restrictions rather we like them or not, and regardless who at the FCC you talked to. It doesn't matter what the guy says, we have to follow what is in writing not what the guy says because the official rules are the written rules not the verbal rules.

Easy.  The wording of the rules is ambiguous and therefore open to individual interpretation.  And we see lots of examples of how that goes off the rails.  Even if all I got was a phone call from the guy who writes the regs, it would have been meaningful to me.  (They said they would forward my questions to him but in the email reply from customer service type folks there was no indication the expert was ever involved.)

[UncleYoda]

13 hours ago, BoxCar said:

According to the communications attorney I talked to, there are NO GMRS Base Station radios. There are GMRS radios operating from fixed locations operating as either repeaters or control stations. Your home based GMRS radio is used to control a repeater or communicate directly to other mobile units. This holds true through all sections under Parts 90, 95, and 97.

Attorney, and you trust him because of that?

What about a base station talking to another base station?  That kills that whole ridiculous concept.  And if there were no base stations why would they be addressed in the regs?  Also, you say "base station radios", but you don't need a unit designed for tabletop use in order to set it up that way.  Handheld and mobile units can be setup as base stations (that's in fact all I have).

[BoxCar]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:57 AM, WSDA306 said:

Few observations/questions about programming my GMRS and FRS radios.

B. In programming my radios, I have 4 different brands of FRS (16 channel, essentially the same radio, Zastone X6, Retevis R22, Baofang T20) + TidRadio M11 22ch.  And also my TD-H3 which is GMRS.  The reason, these china radios all come preprogrammed with the wrong frequencies, and I want them all to be able to talk to each other.  I have programmed them all and they all now talk to each other but Im not sure exactly what this NFM/FM is.  I put all of the FRS radios as NFM like this chart shows, and my GMRS as either FM or NFM.

FRS radios are narrowband since 2017, therefore, they will not have a wideband (FM) option. GRMS channels are wideband (25kHz) so they have an option to operate either wide or narrow.

[marcspaz]

Duplicate

[marcspaz]

Duplicate

[marcspaz]

2 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Something is going wrong with display of posts (out of order, duplicated, disappearing).

 

The website is acting goofy on my phone.  It posted duplicates several times.  Also. the default sort on 'questions' is by vote count.  You can change it to chronological order with a selection under the question...