GMRS handhelds vs antenna rules

[Willie]

I am having a hard time understanding why some new type accepted GMRS handhelds have removable antennas and others do not.
Why is that? I found this under § 95.1787 GMRS additional requirements.

Quote

 

(a) Digital data transmissions. GMRS hand-held portable units that have the capability to transmit digital data must be designed to meet the following requirements.

(4) The antenna must be a non-removable integral part of the GMRS unit.

 

I've been looking at the Wouxun KG-Q10G radios and see they have a 'fixed' antenna. Is the only reason for that merely because it is equipped with GPS location tracking and thus falls under "digital data transmissions"?
Looking at the Wouxun KG-935G Plus as well that has a 'removable' antenna but no GPS function. Is that the reason some are fixed and others aren't. Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks.

 

[OffRoaderX]

The reason the antenna is fixed on the Q10G is not because it has a GPS, but because it can SEND its GPS location in the form of a digital data transmission. So, per the rule you quoted, it must have a non-removable antenna - which means you cannot connect it to a giant antenna on your roof and blast the very annoying digital-signal-noise for miles in every direction.

The 935G, like 99% of all other GMRS radios, does not/cannot send digital data transmissions, so it can have a removable antenna.

There is also a rule buried in the FCCs rule book about certain transmission specifications must be met (ie the radio must have 'clean signals') in order to have a removable antenna, so a few (VERY few) low-end GMRS radios also have non-removable antennas because of this.

 

[Willie]

15 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

The reason the antenna is fixed on the Q10G is not because it has a GPS, but because it can SEND its GPS location in the form of a digital data transmission.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to get at, but I'm not good at getting across what is rattling around in my head down to my fingers on the keyboard sometimes. The dreaded PEBKAC error. You stated it much more succinctly - thank you.

15 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

There is also a rule buried in the FCCs rule book about certain transmission specifications must be met (ie the radio must have 'clean signals') in order to have a removable antenna, so a few (VERY few) low-end GMRS radios also have non-removable antennas because of this.

I have never seen anyone give a good answer to that before, but now it makes perfect sense to me. Thanks again.

Just for a bit of background I went out and got myself a HAM license (tech) a few years ago. Bought myself a handheld to get started. I've used the PTT a total of three times on a HAM frequency. The first two resulted in short pleasant conversations with a couple of locals. The third time caught the attention of THE local SAD HAM and I haven't touched the radio since. (Reasons.)

I've been watching the "queen's" video's for some time now, not only for the information shared but for the gut busting humor and sarcasm. Pure genius IMHO. Anyway... I'm looking to replace my old Motorola Distance DPS handhelds with something more inline with the new FCC's rules I've had my GMRS license for several years now and got a hankering to use it again after watching all those "U-Tubes" videos. And yes, I'll be blaming you when the credit card statement arrives with new radios on it and wife sees it.

 

[WRKC935]

First off, don't let SAD HAMS drive you from that service.  They can be told to go kick rocks just like anyone else.  Having that license doesn't make them special, even if they are convinced it does.  Ham radio can be an enjoyable hobby and pastime and a few clowns shouldn't turn you off from that endeavor.  I just renewed for the third time four days ago.  So 30 years of being a ham.  Yes, I have told people to kick rocks that were hams.  Told it to a GMRS operator or two as well. 

The fixed antenna could be a couple things.  One not mentioned is does the radio have the full complement of FRS channels in it?  FRS is a low power service that is tighly regulated and the equipment has certain stipulations as well. One of which is the interstitial channels are .5 watts and the radio can't have a removable antenna.

That is to keep the talk distance to a minimum.  So that's worth looking into as well.

 

[WRKW566]

I have never considered that FRS was range limited. I always figured the power limit was a design thing to keep the playing field level in manufacturing. This is an interesting new think for me. It may be a very good reason to own an FRS only 'talkie just so that in a busy area I can introduce as little additional "noise" as I can. Big power ain't always good power. Warning: Thread hijack incoming... recommend nice FRS only product. should be something a person will not be ashamed to display... no hello kitty radios

[Lscott]

7 hours ago, WRKW566 said:

I have never considered that FRS was range limited. I always figured the power limit was a design thing to keep the playing field level in manufacturing. This is an interesting new think for me. It may be a very good reason to own an FRS only 'talkie just so that in a busy area I can introduce as little additional "noise" as I can. Big power ain't always good power. Warning: Thread hijack incoming... recommend nice FRS only product. should be something a person will not be ashamed to display... no hello kitty radios

I would suspect most, if not all, GMRS radios have a power setting function. I know on my commercial grade radios I can switch between 4/5 watts to a low of 1 watt when I don't need the higher power. Note FRS is limited to a max of 2 watts on most of the channels and as low as 0.5 watts on a selected number of them per FCC rules.

[WRXB215]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

I would suspect most, if not all, GMRS radios have a power setting function.

Yep, even the Baofeng MP31(2 watt radio) has a power setting for all but the .5 watt channels(8-14).

[SteveShannon]

9 hours ago, WRKW566 said:

I have never considered that FRS was range limited. I always figured the power limit was a design thing to keep the playing field level in manufacturing. This is an interesting new think for me. It may be a very good reason to own an FRS only 'talkie just so that in a busy area I can introduce as little additional "noise" as I can. Big power ain't always good power. Warning: Thread hijack incoming... recommend nice FRS only product. should be something a person will not be ashamed to display... no hello kitty radios

The 0.5 watt ERP limit on interstitial channels applies to GMRS radios as well. FCC documents show that the reason for the 0.5 watt ERP limit was to avoid interference with the surrounding repeater channels.

[WRYZ926]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

The 0.5 watt ERP limit on interstitial channels applies to GMRS radios as well. FCC documents show that the reason for the 0.5 watt ERP limit was to avoid interference with the surrounding repeater channels.

This is true. All of my Part 95 certified HT's will not allow you to change the power output on channels 8-14. And most Part 95 mobiles won't even let you transmit on channels 8-14 since the lowest they go is 5 watts.

The Wouxun KG-XS20G Plus will transmit on channels 8-14 at 5 watts if set to narrow band and low power in the menu. I've taste it but try to never transmit on those channels so I don't cause any interference issues.

[SteveShannon]

23 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

This is true. All of my Part 95 certified HT's will not allow you to change the power output on channels 8-14. And most Part 95 mobiles won't even let you transmit on channels 8-14 since the lowest they go is 5 watts.

The Wouxun KG-XS20G Plus will transmit on channels 8-14 at 5 watts if set to narrow band and low power in the menu. I've taste it but try to never transmit on those channels so I don't cause any interference issues.

Mobile units could be designed to have lower output power, but the regulations specifically limit transmission on the 467 MHz interstitials to handheld portable radios, so there's no reason for the manufacturers to do so:

467 MHz interstitial channels. Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.

[WRYZ926]

I was surprised when the KG-XS20G actually would transmit on channels 8-14 when it shouldn't. And it does put out 5 watts when I checked.

[LeoG]

Mine won't

[Willie]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:56 PM, WRKC935 said:

First off, don't let SAD HAMS drive you from that service.  They can be told to go kick rocks just like anyone else.  Having that license doesn't make them special, even if they are convinced it does.  Ham radio can be an enjoyable hobby and pastime and a few clowns shouldn't turn you off from that endeavor.  I just renewed for the third time four days ago.  So 30 years of being a ham.  Yes, I have told people to kick rocks that were hams.  Told it to a GMRS operator or two as well. 

The fixed antenna could be a couple things.  One not mentioned is does the radio have the full complement of FRS channels in it?  FRS is a low power service that is tighly regulated and the equipment has certain stipulations as well. One of which is the interstitial channels are .5 watts and the radio can't have a removable antenna.

That is to keep the talk distance to a minimum.  So that's worth looking into as well.

 

Yes I know there are a number 'good' HAMS out there somewhere. Just very few of them around my area. There is only one repeater near me and it seems to be maintained by a group of 3 or 4 guys that consider it as their own even though it is listed as a 'public' repeater. They don't want any newbies touching their golden calf. It'sez minezess precious!

I've only got a little Yaesu VX-6R HT to work with and there is very little activity around here. Not much happening without the only repeater I can hit. MEH.

Yes my KG-Q10G has the 22 GMRS channels and 8 repeater channels with channels 8-14 locked down to 0.5 watt per the regs.

[SteveShannon]

7 hours ago, Willie said:

I've only got a little Yaesu VX-6R HT to work with

“Only?”  That’s one of the best and most rugged handheld radios around.  Nice choice! 
I’m sorry you have encountered some hams who are poor ambassadors of amateur radio.  I hope you run into some others who are encouraging and welcoming.

[Willie]

12 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

“Only?”  That’s one of the best and most rugged handheld radios around.  Nice choice! 
I’m sorry you have encountered some hams who are poor ambassadors of amateur radio.  I hope you run into some others who are encouraging and welcoming.

I'm not knocking the radio in any way mind you. I love the little guy. I'm just saying that I'm restricted to using a HT here at home. City ordinances prohibit any exterior antennas. Even satellite dishes have to be hidden from view from the street. If they did allow antennas here I couldn't put one up anyway because I am an amputee and can't operate a ladder anymore. Can't win for losing.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, Willie said:

I'm not knocking the radio in any way mind you. I love the little guy. I'm just saying that I'm restricted to using a HT here at home. City ordinances prohibit any exterior antennas. Even satellite dishes have to be hidden from view from the street. If they did allow antennas here I couldn't put one up anyway because I am an amputee and can't operate a ladder anymore. Can't win for losing.

A mobile antenna on a pie plate in front of a window can do a pretty decent job. If I lived closer I’d help you put one in your attic. 

[WRYZ926]

2 hours ago, Willie said:

I'm not knocking the radio in any way mind you. I love the little guy. I'm just saying that I'm restricted to using a HT here at home. City ordinances prohibit any exterior antennas. Even satellite dishes have to be hidden from view from the street. If they did allow antennas here I couldn't put one up anyway because I am an amputee and can't operate a ladder anymore. Can't win for losing.

Have you tried reaching out to any of the good members of the local amateur radio clubs in the St Louis area? If they are anything like the guys in the Mexico, Mo club, they would be more than happy to help. The guys in the Mexico club have been a great help to me. I'm disabled myself.

[Willie]

I appreciate the tips guys but I'm not really worried about it. The HAM bands around here seem to be pretty much dead all day long except for the morning commute and the evening rush when the same few guys are chatting to each other on their drive to and from work on their mobile radios. Other than that it's pretty much it. Not really my cup of tea.

I get much more use out of GMRS and MURS with the family than I ever would with anything else. Back in the day when I was young and in a CB club, that was fun with all of it's 23 AM channels and maybe 12 members but those days are long gone now of course. I'm happy with where I'm at now. But I can still scan through the HAM bands now and then if the mood strikes me. It's all good.